Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[bobbysamd]

Hey, GIACPT . . . .

I thought that I acknowledged your insightful comments earlier. Yes, you did provide some good information and insight about Gulfstream. I second Timebuilder's comments above about your dedication.

That dedication is another reason why I deplore P-F-T and perhaps the airline hiring process as a whole. H.R. tends to hire by the numbers. It looks at certificates and ratings, time, and age. It does NOT look at the whole person. That's too hard for these coneheads to do. It would require them to think and reflect. Sometimes, you have an applicant who may not fit the profile 100%, but, if you'd give him/her a chance, you'd get a loyal, dedicated and steady employee who would be grateful forever that you gave him the chance. It's a pity, and wrong, and unfair that such people oftentimes must stoop to having to buy their chance. It is so wrong.

I'm the first to admit that life isn't fair. An airline pilot whom my parents met once told them there are pilots who are hired and pilots who are not hired. No, life is not fair.

Once again, thanks for your excellent comments.

 

[PositiveRate]

"What I deplore is the operator, scab or not, who sells a job that pilots have a right to expect should be a paid, trained position, and where passengers have a right to expect two quality people..."

Write a letter if it irks you that much...

It's a free market, capatalist society...that means, GIA and other PFT operations are free to make money as they see fit...within the confines of the law and the FARs of course.

Get in the game if you want, but don't sit on the sidelines commentating on every move of the players.

There, I'm done.

 

[PositiveRate]

ok, i'm not done....

"That dedication is another reason why I deplore P-F-T and perhaps the airline hiring process as a whole. H.R. tends to hire by the numbers. It looks at certificates and ratings, time, and age. It does NOT look at the whole person. That's too hard for these coneheads to do. It would require them to think and reflect. "

I'm sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. Truly, I sympathize with you if you had a hard time geting in the door when things sucked back in the day, but that is not the way hiring works....more importantly, try not to spoil it for all the aspiring pilots who might be following this thread. The certificates, time, etc. get you in the door. It's YOU...the person that will get you the job. YOU includes personality, intellect, logic, willingness to learn, humor, and general likeability.

Don't obsess over dumb stuff like this. Worry about becoming a really good pilot and learning from mistakes when the inevitably happen. Worry about growing as a person too. It's only cool to be bitter once you're union ;-)

 

[GIACAPT]

Sayonara

PositiveRate has a good point.

I must bid farewell as the horse is, indeed, dead.

I sincerely enjoyed the exchange. This board is just like many facets of life. The majority of the players have their head and heart in the right place but there are a few that try to bring the populous down to their level.

The folks like BobbySamd, Timebuilder, Fixin2land (hilarious name), PositiveRate, EZTarget, and many others are for whom this forum exists. They are people who can disaggree and still know it is not the end of the world.

I personally feel you can tell a lot about a persons character from the way they treat their enemies. Or, in this case, how they interact when under the guise of a screen name.

I only wish I had x-ray vision so I could avoid the petty people on this board in the real world. They are the pilots with whom I would not let my family fly. Their attitudes are symptomatic of personality traits that are usually found in the wreckage.

Great people talk about ideas.
Small people talk about people.

 

[PositiveRate]

My idle day is done, and like GIACAPT...I'm outta' here too.

Good luck to all in the future.

 

[bobbysamd]

I'm not done, yet . . . .

My friend, I indeed know what I'm talking about. I tried for six years to get a commuter job. I was plenty persistent; in fact, I sent some commuters resumes for all six years I tried for jobs.

I was close to 40, older than most commuter applicants. I changed careers long before career changing was in vogue. I started by sending stuff before I was qualified, and updated as I approached quals, when I earned new certificates, a new rating, and as I added time. I updated, and updated. I followed all the recommended advice about applying for jobs. I did have interviews, but for the overall output of paper I received very few responses and way fewer phone calls. I was as qualified as people who were nearly half my age; they were the ones who were hired.

Just imagine how you would feel if you were competing for a job with people who were nearly half your age but with otherwise identical qualifications, and these people got the job and not you. Once again, same qualifications except for age. I doubt that you would jump for joy. It's called age discrimination. I experienced it. It didn't take my abilities as a pilot or rocket scientist to figure it out.

I agree with you that it is your personality, intellect, logic, willingness to learn, humor, and general likeability that gets you through the interview. No matter how well you disguise it, your age can be figured out from your resume. So, how do you get to present your personality, intellect, logic, willingness to learn, humor, and general likeability when someone uses age to bar you from that chance?

Age discrimination is another form of prejudice. I wish you all the best. I hope you meet your career goals. And, I most certainly hope that you never have to experience age discrimination.

 

[kilomike]

Excellent posts, Bobbysamd and Timebuilder. Well said.

 

[Timebuilder]

Positive Rate,

You asked a question, and it deserves an answer.

>>How can you be so opinionated and "in the know" at 1000TT+/-?! This is the time soak it all in...experience as much as you can so as to learn and grow as a pilot. Make the most of your environment, be it a seminole, a 1900, or a freighter. I'm 22 with 1400TT and have flown the 121 line, been furloughed, and been rehired by an even better company because of sheer persistance....you do what you need to do in this business to succeed. Enable others to help you and encourage and help aspiring aviators whenever you can.<<

To answer the question in the first sentence: regulars here know that Bobby and I have similar backgrounds, we are both former broadcast journalists. I also did newspaper work, talk radio, acting, and a dozen assorted occupations as I gathered my life experience. Speaking for myself, I have navigated a meandering course from the time when I was 22. I had some pretty strong opinions then, and they were based mostly on "feelings" about the world and how I related to it. Eventually, I had to come down from my ivory tower and integrate factual experiences, empirical evidence, and hard-won insight into my opinions, and they changed dramatically. Even so, my opinions are stronger than ever. I try to temper them. Point: I learned to dig for facts.

Maybe you missed my post(s) explaining how I reached my conclusions about PFT. I sought out the opinions of professional pilots, people who had already flown more hours, and in a greater variety of equipment than I could hope to achieve in the short time that will constitute my career. Some of these guys had flown in WWII. Some flew Cubs before they could drive, before there was an FAA. I think they constitute a group of experienced aviators. They include my father, who flew in the Royal Canadian Air Force, and his friend who was a B-29 pilot in our own Army Air Corps.

I'm glad that a guy as young as yourself has already garnered the experiences you have mentioned. Well done. The point of these posts is to share opinons, based on facts, albeit anecdotal, regarding the pros (easy to identify) and the cons (not so easy to indentify) for other potential pilots on a controversial topic. This is one way to help aspiring aviators navigate some potentially tricky airspace on their way to a career. If I had made one or two different decisions in my teens, I might have been the 50 year old captain sitting across the desk from you at your next interview, smiling in my crisp Delta uniform. Or, I could be under a marker at Arlington. Only hindsight is 20-20.

Perhaps our culture is changing enough that eventually PFT will be a normal step for pilots. I hope that day never arrives, at least in my lifetime. This is just another conversation among pilots, and you can take from it what you will. I have found that those older pilots have a lot of wisdom, and I try to pass some along here.

I hope that clarifies things a little.

 

[bobbysamd]

Thanks, Timebuilder. I couldn't say it better.

Positive Rate and I discussed our exchange privately. He understands where I'm coming from. He's a nice guy and will do well in this business.

Time to reflect. My father, of blessed memory, told me when I decided to change careers that I should have made that decision ten years before, when I was 26. I could have P-F-T'd, just as other older career-changers might be doing. We've had plenty of posts from older folks, impatient maybe, who want their chance before it is "too late" and opt to P-F-T. Maybe I'd have attained my goals if I did. But it wouldn't have felt right. Just my instincts, born out of life experiences, work experiences, gut feelings, and pride, told me that something you work hard for means more in the long run than something for which you don't work hard. If it isn't worth putting forth the effort, it probably isn't worth it. Compare it to not studying for a test, working up a crib sheet, and getting an A. It's empty. It means nothing. Call me old-fashioned.

Really, this has been a good discussion. Hope people got something out of it

 

[TurboS7]

What you are talking about is a midwestern work ethic. Enjoy the process, my best memories are horsing a loaded BE-18 off a runway at MDW in the middle of the night. Landing a 206 on a beach at Bristol Bay, and being the last to land at DTW in the fog before they shut the airport down in an Aztec. All this modern junk isn't aviation it is just a job. I read a good article in AOPA April about type ratings and PFT. It might get you to your goals quicker but you will miss smelling the roses along the way.

 

[Timebuilder]

Agreed.

I sense Positive will do well, also. He's well on his way, having already accrued some great experience.

That work ethic aspect is KEY. That's why I mentioned our changing culture. In the not too distant future, this important idea could be lost for more and more instant gratification. We are already suffering from Future Shock (Alvin Toffler, 1970) as we are Slouching Toward Gomorra (Robert Bork, 1999).

Hopefully, it will be pilot groups who will resist social entrophy more effectively than others.

 

[publisher]

for the most part

for the most part, you guys are right. In an ideal world, one struggles through the CFI, then flies check runs and auto parts, then maybe moves up to a regional and then on.

We are really not in disagreement on that part.

I just had a guy in my office, 34 just got his CFI rating. Has plans to marry and had worked in responsible positions in other industries and wants to give it a try.

What he does not have is the time that it took someone earlier in life who started early to instruct full time, no where near enough to support him and wife. If he works somewhere, it will really restrict his ability to instruct. If he instructs, no marriage and no finances.

Frankly I think this guy is a candidate for an accelerated program. He is mature, knowlegeable, and all the things that one needs to be a pilot. He will not get there in the senario you would have him in.

 

[GIACAPT]

I was going to sign off for good from this thread but it was getting a little rich again.

Someone said a few pages back "there are many ways to get from point A to point B". soak that in for a while

Just because you think PFT is wrong doesn't mean it's a fact. The fact is that the most vocal people against PFT are instructors. Why is that. They seem to feel that the only way to progress in this business (with the coat of distinguished honor that they seem to feel they warrant) is the CFI route.

There are many, many other ways and places to gain experience and pay dues besides the right seat of a Cessna.

Again, there are many paths. What about these "prep" programs that cost a bundle and get a junior birdman hired at any one of a number of regionals?

Sure take aim at GIA, you might even have some of us (most of us) taking pot-shots along with you. However, to say (imply) that the PFT route is for scabs, losers, dishonorable people, or those without a work ethic is just plain horse-hockey.

If you are happy with the path you have chosen, great! However, why waste the energy on us if we are so lowly?


Some points to ponder:

Hipocracy
It is ironic that those who feel PFT is such an abhorent path in this career think it is completely logical to get a new CFI ticket and preach the gospel of the sky as if you have been in it for a hundred years.

Safety
The military can train junior birdmen to fly mach 2 (literally) in 300 hours. I think maybe, just maybe someone with 250 hours can be a productive crewmember at 240 knots.

Perspective
Doctors get out of medical school and are practicing medicine right away. Actually, they start playing doctor before they get out of med school. They are under the guidance of resident physicians however. Sounds a lot like a captain and co-pilot, huh?
Under the logic many of you subscribe to they didn't earn it unless they:
where a candystriper in highschool
an EMT in college
got a scholarship to pay for med school


I thought being a military pilot was the only way to the airlines. When I learned of PFT it showed me there was another route at my age. I hope to get my CFI someday though, when I feel that I have enough experience to pass on...


So long.

 

[350DRIVER]

GIACAPT-

Opinions are just that "opinions"- why not allow people to think,believe, and feel what they want to feel towards certain companies who preach PFT and strive on it.? Why ask why?
Do you need the reassurance in "your" mind to justify your actions and the path that you took.??

If you are happy with what you have done in aviation to get where you are today then that is all that should matter however you are in NO position to attempt to change someone's beliefs towards a company- I would have to say that a majority of your posts are nothing but "opinions" and thats fine if you are happy with what you said BUT you should not try and convince someone else about what you "feel" is right....

And its not just a matter of "taking aim" as you put it-much more is involved which you seem to be neglecting.... Look at what the experienced aviators are saying from this board, what airlines that you jumpseat on "or try" to are saying as well as an entire aviation industry and you may be able to open up your horizon..

cheers & enough said

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Sorry but...

I apologize to Gulfstream pilots if I seemed a little calous in my post on the first page of this subject. In responses to Gulfstream related issues I tend to get a little carried away. Gulfstream pilots handled themselves in a mature manner by responding to many such posts. For that I will give you credit but the facts remain:

- By paying 18000 dollars you are potentially depriving a qualified pilot to occupy that seat.
- By paying to fly you hurt not only the CFI but the commuter pilot seeking to increase his pay and quality of life. (how am I supposed to ask for a raise when a competing airline has pilots paying to perform that JOB)

Therefore it is a fact that you sirs are damaging our proffession. I have been in this industry long enough to see flight instructors teach for free to get students. To see pilots paying for training. To see pilots scab and become ostricized. But, in my opinion, to actually pay a company 18000 dollars to fly a revenue generating aircraft, just to get ahead is the most of selfish acts in our industry today. I am sorry but that is how I and many others that have "been there" feel.