Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[Ty Webb]

Turbo, you have got it wrong here.

The problem with Gulfstream is that they rent out a required crewmember seat as block time.

I think you would feel a lot differently if Miami Air told you that your F/O's were going to be replaced with Gulfstream "grads" who were going to pay $75,000. for 250 hours of B737 time.

Did you pay anything to work at Miami Air? If so, could this have colored your opinion on the subject?

 

[lancair1]

Very entertaining response, and for a wife I'm already married to choice A

As for aviation, the guy/gal with 1900 time requires nill amount of advanced training to do what he has already been doing for the past 500 hours. This person is obviously going to transition in to the job much quicker and more efficiently.

I believe it is this reason that I can not fly a 152 for 5000 hours and get a job at Delta. I've flown 100 hours in a 152 and there is nothing new you're going to teach me or I'm going to learn about flying that little thing. (certainly there will be new situations, but as for the complexity of the plane, my truck is more complicated and requires more mental effort)

 

[Timebuilder]

Almost forgot, for Lancair1:

You'll get some stick time instructing.

"can you show me that again?

"what am I doing wrong?"

"is that an airplane coming at us?"

"what happens if the engine dies?"

...and other assorted situations that will save the student, the airplane, and you.

You'll learn a lot. And, the advanced training should be on the air carrier's dime, not yours. That's the main problem. You should be
paid not paying.

 

[kilomike]

There is an outside chance that in the course of running my business in the future that I may have a corporate aircraft. If so, I may have the opportunity to make a decision between someone w/800 hrs and time in a Gulfstream Beech and an 800 hour CFI with 150 multi from flying a rented twin or perhaps working an honest job ie. flying checks.

Well, I believe in something bigger than just "experience". I believe in character and integrity. The CFI above did not prostitute him or herself by buying a job. Character counts for so much in my eyes. I want to be able to trust the person with whom I am flying and that is crucial.

Frankly, I don't think I could ever trust someone who bought their way in and did not EARN their way toward a flying career.

Anyone thinking of the Gulfjoke thing, think about it. You could someday be facing the CEO or chief pilot at a corporation who believes in character, trustworthiness and integrity. Buying a job just does not prove to me that you are trustworthy.

PLEASE don't buy into the buy a job scam. Not only do I find it morally repugnant in of itself, it hurts the piloting profession by dragging down wages for pilots. Enough is enough already!!

 

[Freight Dog]

I read Eagle Jet Int'l ads where they advertise B737, A320 FO times in Europe with training in Miami. What the hell??!

I wonder what outfits...

 

[TurboS7]

Since we are talking about wives, I only discuss my real opinion about PFT with my wife of 24 years. I do love to throw fuel on the fire about a discussion, it always brings out some interesting things about people. If PFT and Gulfstream are such terrible things to aviation then way when I go to Skytel at FXE for lunch it is packed with Gulfstream aviators? Obviously someone is getting something for something. To the EAL issue that strike was an illegal strike called by ALPA, not voted on by membership, directly against procedure set by the NMB and the RLA. Check out the history then don't let it happen to your airline. With this RJ issue I see dark clouds on the horizon.FDJ and others have shown some enlightment and maturity on this subject, keep it up.As for Miami Air we have one PFT person who stayed with us that was originally with an LTA program or some European airline. The others went on to their repective contract airline. We havn't done that for a long time, like 5 or 6 years. No I didn't pay a dime for my training, no way could I have afforded it. When people were leaving right and left they made up a training contract where they take 200.00 a month from your paycheck and give it all back to you in three years with interest. It worked, as most of the guys stayed and collected the 10k to 12k. Again I couldn't have afforded to pay even that. I do make a commitment to all my employer's and have held to it, if they give me a type rating I will work for them for a year. This is followed by a handshake and my word, and I have kept it through 4 type ratings. Got to run to a ball game....

 

[Ty Webb]

Turbo- you missed my question-

How would you feel if Miami Air announced that instead of employing F/O's, from now on, all newhires would be coming from Gulfstream via a program where they were paying $75,000. for 250 hours of F/O time.

How would you feel? Because that's what Gulfstream is doing, in a nutshell.

When you were flying the Lears, how would you have liked it if your company said that instead of hiring F/O's. that they would be renting out the F/O seat for 250 hours to pilots paying $50,000. for the flight time?

And, to Kilomike- it happens already. I worked at several FL based 135 companies- one that was a Metroliner operation, and two that were bizjet operators. We got floods of resumes from Gulfstream F/O's. and they ALL went into the trash, even when we badly needed F/O's for the Metro's.

One Chief Pilot went as far as to post some of these resumes on the bulletin board in the crew room, with a note saying, "these guys made a paying job disappear". Another D.O. , upon interviewing a pilot for a Westwind F/O position, had the applicant say to him "I'll fly for free, to get experience". The D.O. threw him out of his office, in front of all of us, saying, "We only hire professionals around here- if you're working for free, you're not a professional".

As far as most pilots are concerned, after having worked our way up though the ranks, it is particularly disgusting to see people who paid money to NOT build the experience. If you are a Gulfstream guy, you'll never know why you didn't get some of the interviews/jobs, but you'll probably figure it out sooner or later.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Turbo S7 posted: "To the EAL issue that strike was an illegal strike called by ALPA, not voted on by membership, directly against procedure set by the NMB and the RLA."

Well, I guess I undertand where your coming from now and why you don't see anything wrong with Gulfstream. I post messages about such subjects because I care about our proffession and am obligated to educate those that are just starting out.

regards

 

[Freight Dog]

Looks like Turbo is a Lorenzo fan, and not only that, but he's happy flying his 737-800 as a captain for $88k where a majority of rEAL pilots are at UAL and other majors who made that kinda money in their 2nd or 3rd year as FO's.

----
A SCAB takes your job, a job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your profession often ending up under conditions he wouldn't have scabbed for. A SCAB doesn't think long-term, nor does he think of anything other than himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities, and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs, and careers.

 

[TurboS7]

All Lorenzo did was prove how stupid pilot's as a whole could be and took advantage of it. Sometimes all it take is someone observing this board and they would agree with the same. We have babies in the industry here and suddernly they are labor experts and all kinds of experts about everything. Did you ever think about the chances of you making it to the God blessed profession, almost the same chances of being a major league pitcher, enjoy your Dash 8.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey SCAB,

I'll enjoy my Dash 8 making the same amount as you flying your B737. As a scab - you reap what you sow, but then again you know that.

The difference between me and you is the fact that I will never be looked down upon by my fellow airline pilots.

Oh and by the way, my "GOD-BLESSED" profession starts right here... at the regional level and goes all the way up to the majors.

Am I an industry and labor expert? Not by a long shot.

Do I have a good moral character, sense of values, and INTEGRITY?? You bet. Do you??

When you say that my chances of making it to the majors are about the same as making it to being a major league pitcher - don't put me in the same boat as you. The difference is once again, you are a scab, and I'm not, nor will I ever be. YOUR chances of getting into a REPUTABLE airline are about the same as "making it to the major league pitcher position". Why? Simply because you are a scab, and even the management realizes that scabs lack the moral character, integrity, and pretty much everything else that they are looking for in a prospective new-hire.

Look at your rEAL pilots and look at your EAL scabs and tell me that's not true.

I've said my piece, and I'm joining FlyDeltasJets in ignoring any comments from a scab.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Calm Down

This name calling over the PFT thread is stupid. I said in an earlier post a few of you guys need to go and try and get laid (By a girl) to take the edge off.

I will rephrase that, go drink a 12 pack of beer have some fun, then go at least go try and get your fingers wet, some of you people spend way to much time argueing over stupid things when you could do something way more fun. I'm sick of getting the email notifications that another putz has responded to this thread.

 

[publisher]

indignation

While the rightous indignation of a few is appreciated, for surely they will hold the profession on their backs with the integrity we all can only wish we had, their sense of the correct is admirable.

Meantime, over the years, I hired a bunch of pilots. None of this meant anything to me at all.

Lastly, none of these jobs are YOUR jobs. They are employer jobs. GIA set this up from the start as a time builder operation for the F/o's. I may not agree with what they did or how they do it, but, it is certainly their right to set it up that way.

You can not lose that which you never had.

 

[8sm]

FreightDog,

Howzit

TAB Express advertizes an interview with Island Air. You could be flying with several TAB FO and not even know it. What would you do if you found several working at Island Air with you..
Surfs been good for several weeks now..Hope you've had time to enjoy it........Mahalo 4 your time.

 

[flint4xx]

As for which of the two women to marry...



The one with the biggest t!ts.

 

[Timebuilder]

Re: indignation

While the rightous indignation of a few is appreciated, for surely they will hold the profession on their backs with the integrity we all can only wish we had, their sense of the correct is admirable.

Meantime, over the years, I hired a bunch of pilots. None of this meant anything to me at all.

Lastly, none of these jobs are YOUR jobs. They are employer jobs. GIA set this up from the start as a time builder operation for the F/o's. I may not agree with what they did or how they do it, but, it is certainly their right to set it up that way.

You can not lose that which you never had.

Actually, a sense of what is "correct" is the basis of the moral fiber of a civilized society, but I digress.

While none of this meant anything to you, I have found sufficient animosity in the aviation community in regards to PFT to give me pause.

If the owner is flying the plane, he can call that his job. If I am a professional aviator, and the owner wants to put two pilots there in his aircraft, then we can call those jobs our jobs.

No, I think there is only a small chance that he set this up as a method of helping FO's to build time. More likely, he found that some pilots didn't mind taking the short and easy route, and he could save money in the process.

Just as it is their right to set up a business any way they choose, it is our responsibility to provide ".....the rest of the story".

Goooood day!

 

[kilomike]

GIA should NOT have the right to rip the passengers off by having an FO buy that seat!!! Passengers are entitled to have qualified flight crew and in my eyes some bozo who buys a job at 250 hours is NOT qualified!!! I, a ticketed passenger has more than ten times that in flight time and I think that is ridiculous.

Secondly, GIA or any other pft scum should NOT have the right to have pft programs. PFT is NOT an enhancement to safety in any way shape or form and should be illegal and punishable by a $250,000 fine and 20 years in prison. Passengers' lives are needlessly put at risk when there are countless pilots with plenty of experience available on the market who could take me and other pax safely and reliably to where we need to go. I feel comfortable on Allegheny and Piedmont--my understanding is that most of their FO's have at least 1500 hours when they are hired. Makes me feel much more comfortable when I'm sitting in the back travelling along and reading the paper.

And DONT mistake me for a Communist or any other dumb remarks like that since that's not true. Communism did not work and I saw this firsthand. Free enterprise is great as long as the public's rights are not trampled. IN this case the passenger's right to expect a safe flight is being taken away by having a pft program and to make matters worse the rights of pilots, too, to have a decent living wage--pft drags pilots' salaries down and I don't want that to happen!! I have the right to expect that some of my ticket money will go to PAY both the captain and first officer. That's what they are supposed to be there for to get paid for their job of getting me there safely!!

I have the ultimate goal of running my own business in the future, and I have rights but I also have responsibilities to the public not to pollute or use such cheap labor that I have incompetents in my shop who could end up injuring someone by making an unsafe product!! That Cooper jerk should realize that he has responsibilities to the public and to own up to those responsibilities by PAYING his crews. But no he is an irresponsible scab. He and other pft operators should be put in the clink for a LOOOOOOONG time!! There is no place in business for recklessness and putting people in danger like this!!

 

[Freight Dog]

FreightDog,

Howzit

TAB Express advertizes an interview with Island Air. You could be flying with several TAB FO and not even know it. What would you do if you found several working at Island Air with you..
Surfs been good for several weeks now..Hope you've had time to enjoy it........Mahalo 4 your time.

Howzit 8sm!

Yeah... just got back from Haleiwa, was nice!! Trades are back and they were calling 3-4, but it looked more like 4-6 as there were some really nice sets, offshore breeze.. spent all afternoon there riding my 10'0.

About TAB Express, I didn't even know about them advertising anything about Island Air. I do know we get Pacific Wings SIC's who struggle through training and flunk out in the sim. Granted, it's not all, but a number of them. Goes right to the heart of what I'm saying... Could it be the fact that they were not exposed to IFR? Could it be that they had their hands held the whole time while flying? You see.. numbers in your logbook mean diddly. It's experience that counts. Sure you can buy 200 hours of multi time from an outfit, it doesn't do squat for you. Would the company care how well you do? Well, maybe/maybe not. After all, you pay them for the privilege of being there. I flew with some SIC's in my freight days that had no business being there, and I couldn't believe they didn't teach them some basic things in training. Instead they wanted their money.

In essence.. it's the SIC that gets cheated in the long run. Experience? Nawww.. Flight time in the book? Sure! Who suffers in the long run? It's the SIC.

This is not to mention the flying public i.e. the pax that do not know about this.

Aloha!

 

[de727ups]

Major Leage Baseball pitcher, huh...

I piped in early on this thread as anti-PFT and have been lurking ever since. Some interesting points on all sides. I would say, again, that GIA hurts the profession by making pilots pay to sit in a seat that would traditionally be a job for someone....should be a job for someone. I've moderated my position a bit in wondering if perhaps the Pacific Wings (C402), Alpine (B99), and Ameriflight (Metro and others) schemes aren't so bad because those right seats would normally not be occupied anyway....so if a low timer wants to pay to log right seat time in what would otherwise be an unoccupied seat....maybe it's not so bad. We'd call it PFMTT...pay for multi turbine time....hehe. But to take a right seat B1900 pax job and make a guy pay to take it....well, it's not not right IMO....because it encourages airlines to take advantage of pilots, and there's already enough of that going around.

As for the comment that one is as likely to get a major job in aviation as to be a major leage pitcher.....

I'm a 40 year old 727 F/O for UPS...I made 150K last year. I'm a very normal, unremarkable, average person in most every way. I got the four year degree early on and worked my way up the civillian route. No PFT, No Scab, and went though the mid-80's hiring drought. I got a major job on my third major interview...being turned down by World and then Continental. Eight years between out of ERAU and into a major job. I didn't know anyone at UPS, just sent in my resume. I've always felt that if I could make it to this level...then anyone who is willing to work as hard as I did should be able to as well....you gotta fill all the squares and put in your time...weather the storm....and you can do it. The worst thing you could do is be a scab...I didn't always know that.....but now I'm here to tell you that it might seem like a way to get ahead at the time, but in the end, it's a huge mistake....kinda like drinking 12 beers.

Good luck to all....

 

[8sm]

Freightdog,

Uh brada, you sure know how to make a brada jealous, Haleiwa side go for broke. And on the way home, hook-em at Matsumoto's for daKind. No Leo O' Ke Kai

Still plugging away and enjoying the CFI experience, soon to move on to AmeraF or Airnet for somemore fun then hopefully IslandAir. Nanakuli Rules

Aloha for now.........8sm

 

[AWACoff]

Totally off topic but I was over at Sandys Beach last week and the surf was definitely up. They were calling 3-6. Beats me if it was or not but the surfers were riding inside the curl off of Full Point....yikes. That's big for mainlanders.

 

[8sm]

AWACoff,

You've got to have a large set of *#*&%'s for them big waves.
Mostly been off of DiamondHead myself, spent sometime on the Northshore in December about 6-7am not to bad then. But watch out as the Sun starts climbing. I'm to old for those big sets. I leave that for my 15yr old son, soon to turn pro. Now that will turn my grayhair, white.

Aloha for now....8sm

 

[Timebuilder]

Surfing.

I'll add that to my list of Things to Do.

 

[publisher]

Whoa

Hold on a minute.


First, check the times of those hired at F/o positions across the entire regionl board on the minimum side.

Second, answer me this. Are the people, paid or not paid, legal for the seat they are in?

Third, do you know the total time or times of any of these people at all?

Or, are you assuming because they entered this program they are incompetent and do not have any other flight experience.

If someone has 1100 tt that they got flight instructing, 125 multi engine, and were merely trying to pick up some turbine in an airline situation, are they not qualified for the seat and have about the same level of experience as a good many f/o's.

To say that this should be illegal and punishable by a large fine is over the line.

 

[Timebuilder]

While not illegal, it is certainly unconventional. Perhaps the best way to fight this would be to establish a 501 C 3 to disseminate safety information to the public in the style of "issue" political ads, asking:

"do you know who is flying you from Florida to the islands? One of your pilots could have purchased the right to fly as a first officer on your airline. Instead of hiring and paying a co-pilot, your airline may be using a revolving door of trainees who are so eager to fill their logbooks with "experience" that they have bypassed the seasoning process used by over ninety nine percent of professional pilots. Before you fly, ask if your copilot is paying for training. Brought to you by the concerned pilot's safety council."

Veteran narrator Peter Thomas could do the voice-over, as he lives in Florida. You'd know his voice from A&E, TLC, the History Channel, and over 5,000 commercials.



I don't think a large fine would be necessary.

 

[Checks]

"because it encourages airlines to take advantage of pilots, and there's already enough of that going around."

Exactly! Everything else on this thread is just extra B.S.

Then again, I hope everyone has to PFT for every position in Aviation. That would be way cool! Instead of getting paid 150K a year you should have to pay 50K a year to fly that 727. If a B1900 is worth 20K then I am sure a 727 is worth 50K. Come on UPS guy, get with the PFT program. You non-PFTers make me sick!If you REALLY want to make it then "step up to the plate" and throw that cash down!

 

[Ty Webb]

Scrublisher is technically correct when he says that we do not have a "right" to those jobs, at least without a nationwide pilot's guild or union. A guild or union would actually be a great thing- imagine being able to accumulate seniority, period, and not have to start over each time a company goes under or you want to move!

Anyway, back to the subject at hand- I guarantee you that the person in Houston who buys a ticket on Continental to Key West would be outraged to learn that the "Co-pilot" on the last leg was paying to be flying the airplane- and probably is not even a US citizen, here on an educational Visa!

I am surprised that bit of info has not made it onto "Dateline" or "60 Minutes" yet. Obviously, Scrublisher's e-rag won't ever cover the story, GIA buys too many ads at AEPS and other "Come, BE a PILOT" rags.

 

[publisher]

Ty

TY,

What story?

Is the guy not covered by the same rules and regulations as the rest of you. Is he paying GIA or the FAA. Do not they still govern the situation?

As to your point on seniority, is that not seniority at a company not in life. Companies pay more to higher seniority people as they have been with them and supposedly doing good work for a longer period. Not, heh, you did a great job for United for 14 years, I should reward you with some extra pay for your loyal service to them.

You keep bringing up that advertising point even though I said they only advertised once in a two year period. That would certainly keep me from saying anything negative about them.

I actually think that there is some merit to the dabate on pft in these type situations. I usually only jump in here when someone tries to argue a point that is not valid.

As I have said to you before, if inexperienced F/O' s was a sin, we would have a bunch of people in trouble. There are still chief pilots, check airman, and faa inspectors that are not going to put people in the cockpit because they are in a paid training program.

The trouble is that some read my disagreement with them as my wildly supporting PFT. Not the case.

 

[bobbysamd]

And the beat goes on . . . .

Another way to look at this is whether some people deserve special hiring privileges over others. I think this debate in part boils down to that issue. That's one of my issues with P-F-T.

Throughout this thread and other P-F-T threads suggestions and references are made that perhaps individual "A" deserves special privileges because he/she is 35 and is getting older fast, or individual "B" has too much rotor and not enough airplane. Apparently if you can (afford to) P-F-T you can obtain special treatment.

It's just my .02 opinion, but everyone should be afforded an equal chance - meaning no special treatment in hiring (or the best hiring money can buy). I go back to my example from before about the broadcasting business. It took me several years of hard work to get where I finally got in my radio career - and I was still working a lousy shift. I was working that shift on a promise from my boss that I would move back to the regular day shift for which I was hired. Perhaps a year later, he hired someone, ostensibly for my shift, but when he found out this fellow had played college baseball he put him on days. Seems that he wanted the guy to help him coach his Little League ball team. That didn't seem very fair to me.

 

[Timebuilder]

>>As I have said to you before, if inexperienced F/O' s was a sin, we would have a bunch of people in trouble. There are still chief pilots, check airman, and faa inspectors that are not going to put people in the cockpit because they are in a paid training program.


I think the "sin" in this isn't that the first officer is a human who is capable of error, but that he has bypassed the hiring regime, the screening process if you will, that would normally be in place. The previous experience, the resume, the pool, the interview, and finally, the company paid training and initial experience leading to a real job performed by a paid professional pilot, without a 250 hour time limit. A conventional FO continues to build experience past the 250 hour mark, while the PFT FO is ousted for another neophyte, taking the experience in the cockpit back to where it was 250 hours ago.

And sure, when I say "our jobs", it isn't in the legal sense. It's more the moral sense.

If pilots refuse this type of plan, it can't continue. Knowledge really is power.