Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[fly4ever]

Never PFT

Mesaba Airlines has never been PFT. The company has always paid their pilots from the date of hire and never required any payment upfront accept for an interview fee when Comair used to do the interviews for Mesaba. Mesaba has conducted their own interviews over the past few years. Also, hotel(single occupancy) and minimum pay guarantee(75 hrs) is provided from the first day of training.

 

[skyboat]

Guys, this argument is way too old. Get a life.

Aviation is not the only industry where PFT and slave labor exist. My father is an attorney, and yes, he has to pay for his continuing legal education (Yes, he is a sole practicioner but the expense still comes out of his pocket) I'm sure Medical professionals have to pay for some of there own eduction. Attorneys and physicians for corporations have this education paid as a benefit. It is not a right. It may be a standard benefit in the industry but it is not a right. It is just like a company paying for a pilot's recurrent training, LOFT's and medicals as a standard benefit in the airline industry.

My sister is completing her masters degree in Geoology this spring. She will be hitting the the streets looking fo a job, and right now it looks like she is going to have to take a position with no compensation whatsoever. She will merely be doing it for the experience. Now I must tell you that she will be working for the U.S. GOVERNMENT! Can the argument be made that she is taking a position from someone else that has paid their "dues". Yes, absolutely, if you read this board. However, the government will not pay someone to do this job and there are many people who will do it. Also, in some circumstances, the only way to get a paid position is to take a full time volunter position. Is this right? No. Is this fair? No. Is it a fact of life? Yes.

PFT is wrong. No one denies that. You ask 200 different pilots and you get 200 different definations of PFT. PFT will never go away in the minds of some people. GIA is nothing more than a flight school. They just happen to do the flight training in a Beech 1900. An individual goes to a flight school and pays a given amount of money to earn their ratings. After that the flight school gurantees them a job. They instruct there, get their experience and move on. What difference is that than the person who went to GIA and got to fly a Beech 1900 instead of instructing? I came through on the flight instructor route but I see no difference. I guess in the end we are all PFT whores...

 

[FlyinHigh]

I guess it all depends on what your goals are. A pilot is at Point "A" and wants to be at "B". As we know, there are a myriad of routes to take from Point "A"-- Military: AirForce, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, NASA, NWS, NOAA , Air Guard --Helicopters, Heavy Jets, Fighters, Props, etc. Civilian: Banner Tow, CFI, CFII, MEI, privately owned a/c, Corporate, Commuter, Freight, Flying the pipeline, Alaska Bush Pilot, Traffic watch, etc. There are numerous subcategories such as "Do I instuct at a flight school or on my own, do I fly for a corporate with props or jets, G2's or Challengers; a commuter with Dash-8's, or Dash-7's, etc.; Should I go Navy or Airforce or Air National Guard, fighters or heavies?"
Not all these options are available to everyone. This could be because of medical reasons, family obligations, financial limitations or geographical limitations, age requirements, or experience requirements, etc. These are factors that you bring to the table. This doesn't even include being rejected by the government or employer, or ,if your goal at point "B" isn't currently available due to military cutbacks, airlines not hiring, or pilots on strike. These factors may be out of your control.
What is your goal? Do you want to fly fighters? Do you want to fly regionals? Do you want to fly for the majors? Figure out YOUR goal and then start YOUR path.
Do I harbor animosity toward someone who got fighters and I got heavies? Am I malevolent toward someone who got hired before me because of there age, family, financial backings or race? Do I hate someone who got the instructor job and I didn't? Will I not fly with someone who's father paid for everything and I had to take out loans? NO! And you know why? Because I don't blame or hate someone for having good fortune. It's futile and it's a waste of time and energy that could be better spent focusing on achieving MY GOAL, not theirs. Stop worrying about everyone else and start focusing on getting to point "B", YOUR way.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

PFT

FlyingHigh,

Great post, my seniments exactly. This whole PFT think is stupid and very childish. If I had the money I would have gone to Gulfstream in a heart beat rather than instructing. I chose instructing because I had very few options.

I dont hate people that did PFT at places like Gulfstream, in fact Im a little jealous. This PFT thing has been run in the ground. I wish there was an ignore feature on this site, so I could ignore and threads dealing with PFT. I'm out.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. The Golden Rule

To expand on the viewpoints above, all roads lead to Rome. Perhaps.

Here's some more food for thought, which I learned when I was in the commuter job market ten years ago, when P-F-T started:

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

One final Gulfstream question, though: What percentage of Gulfstream P-F-T grads do not get hired by regionals? That's been one of my suspicions of such programs. That after one completes it that's the only airline flying that person will ever do, and to stay employed in aviation the person has to take a step back, e.g. instructing. I'd submit that even before 911 that these folks were in the majority.

 

[starchkr]

Uhhh....Well.... I know this is kinda late and all, but i had to clear one thing up for mr. flying@500agl. SIC's at AirNet DO NOT pay a dime for the time they build, in fact thay are paid 16K a yr plus overtime and they are given full benefits, the same as everyone else in our company. Also, i signed a one year contract with Airnet, and this month i complete that one year, and by doing so i get a nice bonus on my next check($1,000). How is that PFT when they actually are paying me a total of ($1,500) to sign my John Hancock to a piece of paper that WILL NOT stand up in a court of law anyway. (We have had many pilots leave and not have to pay the contract because of little legal discrepancies in the contract)

OK, i am done, we can go on with the Gulfstream debate again.

 

[capnflyright]

There are more ways than one to tackle this argument. The majority of our military pilots received a free ride through their training, but at least PFT pilots paid for their training. It's all how you want to address this issue and getting upset because the next pilot jumped ahead doesn't do you any good. If you are sweating in a C-150 going around the patch, then embrace the experience. If you are a low time pilot sitting right seat in a B-1900, then embrace that as well. Flying is a privilege and as long as we are able to fly that is all that matters.

 

[LearLove]

Correct me if I'm wrong.....

Didn't airnet have a program (a few years back) that an sic paid $12 /hr. for sic time and the company paid them $6/hr. back. I remember the article in the airinc mag in sept/oct 98. I thing they changed it in 99 when they couldn't get 135 qualed pilots.

 

[j41driver]

I know one....

There was a girl in my ACA new hire class a few years ago that bought time at Gulfstream. She actually got hired after the 250 hours that she paid for. I've never flown with her but I have flown with several FO's that have and they all say she is a very good stick. It worked for her I guess.

 

[j41driver]

ACA shouldn't be on the PFT list

I was hired just about 2 years ago and didn't pay a penny to get the job. There are guys here that did pay, but it hasn't happened in at least 3 years.

 

[starchkr]

Year's ago yes they did... but none of the money went to the company. The SIC was to pay 12 per hour and receive 6 back as pay. The other 6 went to the PIC flying with the SIC as an extra incentive to have them onboard. Airnet did not keep any of the money, so the PFT debate just went TU on that one since all of us know that PFT is a way for the company to profit.

 

[TurboS7]

Considering that Tom Cooper started GIA with one little 402B in a run down hangar a little over 10 years ago GIA has come a long way. There is no doupt that they are a commuter success story, and the PFT's are just customer's like the passengers that fly every day. Money is money in the 135/119/121 business and it has to come from many diffrent markets.

 

[generaltso]

I bet you had to pay to get training in that 402. I disagree with PFT, but I don't really fault the company for doing it. The idea of a business is to MAKE MONEY. And if they can find people that will PFT themselves, they are going to take advantage of that fact. And there will ALWAYS be people that are willing to PFT.

PFT used to the be standard, now it is the exception. I wonder why all the companies dropped it? Surely because they couldn't get enough people to do it? Maybe pressure from the pilot groups? Anyone know?

 

[TurboS7]

I was never PFT because when I started flying it hadn't been invented yet. I was always and still am broke so I couldn't have afforded it even if it was at my doorstep. Outfits like GIA are alright in that they do give a guy a shot at a real paying flying job after the PFT. I do have a problem with outfits that charge to fly right seat in a PA31 single pilot operation, I think that is taking advantage of the situation. Hours are hours and how you get them really doesn't make the diffrence in the long run. I know the quality of experience that I have and I would be comfortable with someone with similar experience. I think that this is true for the industry, military guys are comfortable with military etc. The issue is that there are those that have been there, and those that have not. How one reacts under pressure and an emergency can only be told by experience.......that takes time. I do have a hard time knowing that the learning will have to take place with an airplane full of paying passengers vs. a lone 402 on a dark, icy, IFR night in the midwest. Time will tell....I hope I am wrong.

 

[350DRIVER]

This is getting more and more hilarious just when I thought it couldn't get any better.... - Why is it that some are concerned with the "fine details" about the Gulfjoke program.? Some ask "what percentage of the pilots who initially "BUY" the right seat are offered a job after the 250 hours expire" etc, etc, etc,etc,etc.... WHO CARES.........- This subject is getting old very fast and if anything you are giving this program "free publicity"- Gulfstream isn't worth talking about nor "debating"..


The bottom line is that if you want to "BUY" a right seat of a 1900 then by all means go to Gulfstream and enjoy... If you want to be RESPECTED by the aviation community as a whole then don't go there. Easy enough and not worth hearing Gulfstream pilots make weak attempts trying to justify why/how they "deserve" postive feedback from the pilot community which will never happen.


I just wish I had Cooper's savings account-

cheers-