Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[flint4xx]

Maybe you anti-PFT people can get your college paid for by your future employer too. What about letting your future employer buy your ATP and all of your hours for you too? I know, since you're so worthy, why don't you just sit at home and wait for the recruiters to come to you. Everybody must pay their dues one way or another.

As for SW, the ENTIRE training program is set up for people with a MINIMUM EXPERIENCE LEVEL that includes alot of hours and being typed. It's short and intense. The company doesn't want to pay for washouts in training. Yes, it saves the company some money. It also allows the company to pay profit sharing and give job security. It also helps to promote the team player mentality. Everybody else had to go through the same thing to get here.

SO if there wasn't a type required and the competitive minimuns were 5000 of jet 121 time, what would you complain about then? You would still have to "pay" to get here.

Every employer has the right to set their own minimum qualifications. What about JetBlue requiring time in aircraft over 20,000 lbs.? What about Delta and military guys, or United and minorities?

To quote Bob Crandall, "This is a dirty rotten business." Get over it. The whining should stop at the gate.

 

[FlyinHigh]

Bobbysamd, regarding your question...

"Gulfjoke is also good, to go along with Gulfscab and Scabscream.

I'd love to know, though, in all seriousness, if any Gulfstream "grads" have gone on to real regional jobs.


Last edited by bobbysamd on 03-30-2002 at 05:23"
=====================================

I'm not sure of how many "grads" have gone to real regional jobs but several of us "grads" have gone to American, United, Delta, Northwest, Continental, Southwest, ATA, UPS, FEDEX, Airborne, DHL and USAirways. Other airlines don't focus on PFT. They focus on the quality of your flight time and experience. Fly safe, build your PIC Turbine time, don't cross a picket line and you should do OK.

If you were civilian, you paid for your training from the start. Do airlines really care if you bought your flight time at Embry-Riddle, Gulfstream, or some other flight school? They are more interested in the experience you've gained from whatever quality flight time you have accrued. Consider Gulfstream a graduate degree of ME turbine time a student doesn't yet have. If they had it, they wouldn't be applying to Gulfstream, a place that requires a down payment of upwards 20K!

I don't think anybody considers Gulfstream a "real airline" nor a place to make a career. It is a place to build quality PIC turbine time and valuable experience in a short amount of time; a stepping stone to another regional or major airline.

Good luck to all...

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream "grads"

Fair reply. I appreciate your comments.

Several questions, then, and if these sound like sarcasm I don't intend it to be; I just want some information.

Does Gulfstream ever turn down any applicants, even though they have the $20K in hand? Must trainees put down only a deposit or must they fork up the entire $20K up front? Do any trainees ever wash out? And, if so, are they refunded any portion of their deposit or tuition? Can a person apply for a non P-F-T FO position at Gulfstream after completing the P-F-T portion? Does Gulfstream upgrade its FOs to Captain?

I honestly am seeking information and in no way am trying to incite a flame war. I don't like to see people ripped off or taken advantage of because they have an intense desire for a real flying career, such as I had at one time. I cannot abide the notion that paying money is the only way to get a job. I also appreciate your comment about not crossing a line.

 

[350DRIVER]

Out of over 2000 views we have only "one"Gulfjoke grad come out of the closet..... Yeah and you guys surely are "quality" as you put it-

by the way since you seem to be so "proud" of where your "quality" grads have went on to after Gulfjoke then go ahead and list a few numbers then..... BUT wait since "they" told you this coming up with "factual" figures would be impossible for you to do- nice try though...lol gave quite a few here another good laugh.....

 

[AWACoff]

The majors did/do hire people with just 1900 time. Great Lakes is another example. I'm guessing in Gulfstream's case that many of their captains were street captains. If that is true, we shouldn't be degrading the captains. They are simply doing their job. I do know of one FO who PFT'd at Gulfstream and later on became a "captain" for Gulfstream after getting 1500TT. He was the same person with a lack of morals I wrote about earlier in the thread. I'm sure he isn't the only one *CLARIFICATION*...isn't the only one who has upgraded after being an FO at Gulfstream. Flying single pilot while handicapped with a low time "FO" is not an easy job. Imagine flight instructing in the conditions we encounter on the line. It's not easy, I'm sure.

 

[350DRIVER]

I would have to assume that 1900 time is viewed as "gold" by most major airlines- due to the lack of an autopilot on board the 1900 the majors know that they are getting a sharp stick. No one has ranked on pilots who fly the 1900 INSTEAD this thread has concentrated on the whole Gulfstream system...

Awac I agree with you completely about the Gulfstream guys who were hired off the streets that "earned" the job and are now stuck babysitting the handicapped underachievers who "bought" or "rented" the right seat out.... I respect those guys who came off the streets to the utmost and I can only wish them the best however it is a true disgrace to the industry as a whole that a program of Gulfstreams magnitude is continuing to prosper and make its owner even that much richer.......

cheers....

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream Captains

Absolutely. I agree with the above regarding Gulfstream captains. The place undoubtedly is a great education in CRM for them.

I don't quite understand the 1900 comment. As an example, Mesa sent plenty of 1900 (and Brasilia) drivers to the majors before it got jets. It's still 121 PIC multi turbine time. That certainly doesn't grow on trees and, to my knowledge, cannot be purchased.

 

[GIACAPT]

Anger Management

To answer bobbysamd’s questions:

-Applicants sometime do get turned down for training. Somewhere around the first or second day you go to a sim eval and they check you out there. I don’t know what percentage but it is low.
-The money is paid all at once after the sim eval.
-People do washout and their refund is on some scale based on where they are in training.
-Toward the end of your 250 hours a pilot goes to an interview and brings recommendations (if collected) from captains. Just like any other interview some are retained that should not be and others that most definitely should be hired are not. Go figure.
-As for upgrade, about 85% of present captains are former FOs. Street captains are rare.



Now for the general reply to the thread:

350Driver... is that on microsoft?
AWACOFF...your name says it all. Top notch, really top notch.

It is easy to see maturity and position(CA/FO) by the posts.

As for the figures of what pilot goes where, who knows but here is what I can recall in the past 2-3 years.

COex-several in '00 and '01
Airtran-constantly going
Spirit-2 or more
Air Wisc.-several
Comair-several
ASA-at least two
Delta-one maybe more
United-a couple before they flushed the pool
SWA-at least 4
Midway-oops
Peidmont-4 or 5
Eagle- a handfull
FedEx-one
UPS-at least 2
DHL-1 or more
TWA-before- 2
American-a bunch
ACA-more than 3
Vangaurd-a handfull
Frontier-1
NWA-1


This thread reminds me of schoolyard banter "your shoes are brand “X”..." or click-ish harassment. Some of the comments made above open a window into the writer’s character. It is precarious to paint 150 pilots with one brush. I am curious of how those individuals would respond if similar comments where made toward their pilot group.

I often forget about the small percentage of humanity that has a need to look down on someone or some group. I prefer to look up. Some of the stories I find here are amusing; “ My captain actually said…” (my eye) “We let him ride anyway.” (don’t you mean to say that the CAPTAIN let him ride?)

Many refer to the PFT FO at GIA as a radio and flap operator. In reality, most of them hit the line with good skills and the radio is their biggest challenge. We don’t have an auto-pilot and they fly every other leg just like everyone else.

Who is to say which way is the “right way” to progress to the regionals or the majors. With that mentality, teaching the art of flying with virtually no experience is a bit ironic. The terms “stone” and “glass house” come to mind.

Some people on this board use the word “Scab” freely without thought. This word incites strong feelings in some so please don’t use it so freely and inappropriately. Sure our lineage is steeped in controversy, but we are not all like our “parents”. Hell, by the time you figure out your “parents” aren’t popular you’ve already been born. I know we have “scab” roots and some remaining “scabs” at the company. They are few in number. Does this mean all of us are “scabs”? Moreover, are we the only company with these folks among us?? I didn’t think so. Why is it that no one is angry with other carriers (large and small) that have “scabs” in their ranks?

The bottom line is that I took this route not knowing what was in store. Now I am making the best of a less than perfect environment. PFT sucks, no doubt! But I disagree that it is the scourge of the industry that some will promote.
Hopefully my reply will illustrate that all of us at GIA are not inept, jerks, idiots, scabs, or wealthy. Although you will find a smattering of each, as you will at your airline if you look closely enough.

Pilot groups are like a families, we all have our black sheep.


(P.S.)
SWA= PFT!? Come on. Whoever considers SWA PFT because they require a type must (with that logic) consider EVERYONE with an FAA certificate a PFTer. If they want to rule out the serious from the not-so-serious future employees, it’s their prerogative. They seem to be doing something right. Requiring a type almost guarantees no washouts in captain upgrade. We all know that in any interview you are being screened as a future captain. Which is pretty important since they will be continuing to grow in the wake of poorly managed airlines. I can’t imagine where those other airlines obtain their flawed management style…

Take your job seriously, not yourself.

Humbly,
GIACAPT

 

[bobbysamd]

Hey, GIACPT . . . .

Good counterpoint.

Can you give a percentage of those who are actually turned down after the sim eval? Can you give a percentage of those who are hired after completing the 250 paid hours? I appreciate your "go figure" comment and your comment on how P-F-T sucks.

How is the training? Are trainees given help or encouragement, or is it a gauntlet? I realize this is a subjective question. I am concerned that people would be so harassed that they are either failed out or quit. I realize there are non-P-F-T airlines who take that kind of approached.

My opinion is not likely to change about ANY job, aviation or not, where you have to pay for training, but this is turning into a good discussion.

 

[GIACAPT]

I am always up for a healthy exchange. I know how a lot of folks feel about PFT and I am, by no means, trying to change anyone's mind. I just want to convey that we are not all bad. Hindsight is 20/20.

As for the percentage of those rejected after the sim, I would say approximately 5-10%. I am no cheerleader for the company but in (most) cases people who don't belong in an airplane get weeded out. Unfortunately there are instances...

The percentage for those hired by the company after 250 depends on GIA need and ability. Again, there are always exceptions to the rule. Prior to 9/11 i would say the percentage was somewhere in between 70-90%. Of course, since the bombings, it has been 0%.

The training is good enough. In my opionion, based on friends at other places, it is similiar to anywhere else. Attitude determines a lot. Imagine any airline where a person was having trouble and they blamed everything but themselves. They would have a shorter walk to the door than someone who was highly motivated and constantly striving to improve.
It isn't a gauntlet, but in the early days/weeks, it is firehose style stuff. Captain training is reputed to be tough but I enjoyed the experience. I think spending 1200 hours or more in the right seat can be useful or a waste depending upon the individual.
Our street captain wash-out rate was as high as 50-60% when they where hiring them.

You where correct when you said 121 turbine pic time does not grow on trees. Most of the captains here are former FOs and the rest are comprised of a few street captains and some old salts that have made GIA a home.


Disagreement is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[flydog]

GIACAPT

Your post is well thought out and concise however the point still remains that pilots like yourself that buy jobs put other experienced and well qualified pilots who have paid their dues on the street and affect the earning potential of all pilots. Since you bought your job your skills and experience come into question. This is not to say that 100% of PFTers are incompetent pilots but the question mark remains

 

[350DRIVER]

GIACAPT-

The bottom line still remains that you "BOUGHT" your job and you can try to justify why/how this is "accepted" etc.. from now till hell freezes over and most opinions towards Gulfjoke will remain the same.- I am not attacking your personal flying skills nor is anyone else on this board it is the "anatomy" and make up of Gulfstream which makes most upset since in reality IF their was NO "buying" of the right seat THEN Gulfstream would have to HIRE, TRAIN, and PAY new hires at THEIR COST not the PILOT's cost- - yeah just like most airlines do - 1) Company hires you 2) Company TRAINS you @ their cost NOT yours 3) Company PAYS you for the position that THEY hired you for..... As for the "numbers" that you posted...- no comment, some things are better left unsaid.

 

[DoinTime]

...the point still remains that pilots like yourself that buy jobs put other experienced and well qualified pilots who have paid their dues on the street...

The fact is that GIA will always be pay for training and if you are unwilling to work for a company that has PFT why are you concerned about who works there? Nobody has an inherent right to work anywhere inparticular, regardless of their experience level, and with an attitude like yours its no wonder your on the street.

If you want to work SWA your going to need a type, if you want to work for GIA your going to have to PFT, if you want to work for United its going to help to be a woman. You need to do what is neccessary to acheive the goals you set for yourself. Find your place in the world, sit your butt down and quit your whinning.

 

[GIACAPT]

As for the "numbers" that you posted...- no comment, some things are better left unsaid.

I have no reason to give false statements. The figures that I posted on pilots leaving here for other carriers are off of the top of my head. I can actually remember the individuals going there. As for the numbers, of course they are not ironclad, but they are conservative and truthfull.

your skills and experience come into question

I can respect that comment because I might have felt the same way if I were outside looking in. However, it does give me extra motivation to do my best so that when it comes to pass folks are suprised that I was PFT.

Some of the posters above refer to PFT as "buying a job". This is where we are most likely to disagree. I did PFT. That is not in question. The initial training, and supposedly the 250 hrs, is covered in the initial fee. After the 250 is up it is a different story.

I was one of the pilots hired while others where shown the door. There was apparently a difference between some of us. In the beginning I was gambling on the timing and betting on myself. Since then I have kept my nose clean, upgraded, flown w/o incident, and logged a couple thousand hours. The company paid for the type/atp. The initial fee, if you do a cost analysis, barely covers the training costs. I didn't pay for my job, I paid for a shot at my job.


(not being sarcastic)
As for us putting more qual. pilots on the street. Those pilots really wouldn't want to work here.

 

[KingAirer]

...You skipped steps in the paying dues portion of the Flying cycle by Paying money. Anyone spending time flying around in a 150 on a hot summer day trying to build hours that are competitive at most airlines, knows what paying dues are.

 

[fly4ever]

Never PFT

Mesaba Airlines has never been PFT. The company has always paid their pilots from the date of hire and never required any payment upfront accept for an interview fee when Comair used to do the interviews for Mesaba. Mesaba has conducted their own interviews over the past few years. Also, hotel(single occupancy) and minimum pay guarantee(75 hrs) is provided from the first day of training.

 

[skyboat]

Guys, this argument is way too old. Get a life.

Aviation is not the only industry where PFT and slave labor exist. My father is an attorney, and yes, he has to pay for his continuing legal education (Yes, he is a sole practicioner but the expense still comes out of his pocket) I'm sure Medical professionals have to pay for some of there own eduction. Attorneys and physicians for corporations have this education paid as a benefit. It is not a right. It may be a standard benefit in the industry but it is not a right. It is just like a company paying for a pilot's recurrent training, LOFT's and medicals as a standard benefit in the airline industry.

My sister is completing her masters degree in Geoology this spring. She will be hitting the the streets looking fo a job, and right now it looks like she is going to have to take a position with no compensation whatsoever. She will merely be doing it for the experience. Now I must tell you that she will be working for the U.S. GOVERNMENT! Can the argument be made that she is taking a position from someone else that has paid their "dues". Yes, absolutely, if you read this board. However, the government will not pay someone to do this job and there are many people who will do it. Also, in some circumstances, the only way to get a paid position is to take a full time volunter position. Is this right? No. Is this fair? No. Is it a fact of life? Yes.

PFT is wrong. No one denies that. You ask 200 different pilots and you get 200 different definations of PFT. PFT will never go away in the minds of some people. GIA is nothing more than a flight school. They just happen to do the flight training in a Beech 1900. An individual goes to a flight school and pays a given amount of money to earn their ratings. After that the flight school gurantees them a job. They instruct there, get their experience and move on. What difference is that than the person who went to GIA and got to fly a Beech 1900 instead of instructing? I came through on the flight instructor route but I see no difference. I guess in the end we are all PFT whores...

 

[FlyinHigh]

I guess it all depends on what your goals are. A pilot is at Point "A" and wants to be at "B". As we know, there are a myriad of routes to take from Point "A"-- Military: AirForce, Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, NASA, NWS, NOAA , Air Guard --Helicopters, Heavy Jets, Fighters, Props, etc. Civilian: Banner Tow, CFI, CFII, MEI, privately owned a/c, Corporate, Commuter, Freight, Flying the pipeline, Alaska Bush Pilot, Traffic watch, etc. There are numerous subcategories such as "Do I instuct at a flight school or on my own, do I fly for a corporate with props or jets, G2's or Challengers; a commuter with Dash-8's, or Dash-7's, etc.; Should I go Navy or Airforce or Air National Guard, fighters or heavies?"
Not all these options are available to everyone. This could be because of medical reasons, family obligations, financial limitations or geographical limitations, age requirements, or experience requirements, etc. These are factors that you bring to the table. This doesn't even include being rejected by the government or employer, or ,if your goal at point "B" isn't currently available due to military cutbacks, airlines not hiring, or pilots on strike. These factors may be out of your control.
What is your goal? Do you want to fly fighters? Do you want to fly regionals? Do you want to fly for the majors? Figure out YOUR goal and then start YOUR path.
Do I harbor animosity toward someone who got fighters and I got heavies? Am I malevolent toward someone who got hired before me because of there age, family, financial backings or race? Do I hate someone who got the instructor job and I didn't? Will I not fly with someone who's father paid for everything and I had to take out loans? NO! And you know why? Because I don't blame or hate someone for having good fortune. It's futile and it's a waste of time and energy that could be better spent focusing on achieving MY GOAL, not theirs. Stop worrying about everyone else and start focusing on getting to point "B", YOUR way.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

PFT

FlyingHigh,

Great post, my seniments exactly. This whole PFT think is stupid and very childish. If I had the money I would have gone to Gulfstream in a heart beat rather than instructing. I chose instructing because I had very few options.

I dont hate people that did PFT at places like Gulfstream, in fact Im a little jealous. This PFT thing has been run in the ground. I wish there was an ignore feature on this site, so I could ignore and threads dealing with PFT. I'm out.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. The Golden Rule

To expand on the viewpoints above, all roads lead to Rome. Perhaps.

Here's some more food for thought, which I learned when I was in the commuter job market ten years ago, when P-F-T started:

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.

One final Gulfstream question, though: What percentage of Gulfstream P-F-T grads do not get hired by regionals? That's been one of my suspicions of such programs. That after one completes it that's the only airline flying that person will ever do, and to stay employed in aviation the person has to take a step back, e.g. instructing. I'd submit that even before 911 that these folks were in the majority.