Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[publisher]

good points

Bobby,

There are many good points in the discussion.... yet.

When I had a 135 and corporate flght department, I had a bunch of guys living in my lobby who wanted to fly for free to build that turbine time on corporate flights.

These guys were flight instructors from Ohio State and the flight schools in our area. Many of these guys had 135 minimums but needed multi turbine. Unfortunately I had a bunch of Aztec drivers who wanted that time too so it was rare that I could use them.

What I am saying is that everyone here is prejudging who these people are and acting like they may not have any experience level at all except what they bought. That is not necessarily the facts.

It took me 1800 total and 575 multi to get 215 of multi turbine. If at that point I had signed with GIA, I would have had 2000+ 800 + and nearly 500 multi turbine. It would have made me pretty employable.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying for free to build time v. P-F-T

Okay, Pub, put me in the "me, too" column. I needed multi turbine, too. Doesn't everyone? When I started preparing for a professional career after several years as a pleasure pilot, I approached a guy I knew who flew a Part 91 Kingair for an oil company. I asked him if I could come along with him and fly to build turbine time. He had others approach him before for the same reason. He knew what I was after and was receptive. I spent many afternoons helping him wash his airplane in return for rides. I went with him once or twice, and logged something like 1.0 (he apologized later for not getting me more hours). I had no expectation of pay. People did that all the time years ago (do they still?). No money changed hands. I don't think anyone would have a qualm about doing that.

Once again, notwithstanding the ethics, pride, worth, quals and accomplishment issues, the big issue is money changing hands in return for time.

I don't know how recent your time is, Pub, but I'd bet another .02 opinion and the first round of Cokes if we ever have a Coke together that your time and an ATP (without the P-F-T hours!) would land you a bunch of interviews these days. With an ATP, you would have had your pick of interviews with those quals twelve years ago.

 

[publisher]

Righto

Bobby,

First of all, I was too busy being president to worry about it. Nevertheless, had I paid the money, it would have made a significant difference on my insurance qualifications.

At many corporate jobs, the insurance company sets the times every bit as much as the corporation. That 500 multi turbine made a big difference for a captain job back then at my company.

The strange thing in light of today's market, literally all my pilots on full time were A&P's. 4 of them IA in addition to
ATP.

Had I been a pilot for a living, I would have paid some money to get the time. It would have got me there a year earlier.

 

[metalleg38]

Newbie, Excuse the Ignorance...

Can someone clarify this subject of PFT for me.
It seems to me that everyone "Pays for Training", weather you do it at an airline run school, a flight Acadamy or a University.

I think someone stated in an earlier post that a "Law Firm" is not going to hire you out of high school( or college for that fact) and then pay for your three years of law school.

If there is an airline out there that would hire you and "Then" put you through all your training at thier expence, wouldn't everyone want to go there??? as opposed to shelling out 10's of thousands of $$$$$$ of your own money.

Not trying to start anything here, just would like some explanation. Thanks in advance!!

ALSO, is there a web site or good book that anyone can recomend for all these abbriviations that are used in aviation.
I thought the sign and computer graphics biz used a lot, Boy was I wrong there.....LOL

 

[TurboS7]

Wake up guys

You pay for trainig at any major airline. The first year you may make 30K max, then the second year you suddenly make 60K to 90K. Wake-up, you just paid a major airline 30K to 60K for your training. Just because 1 year went by are you more valuable to the company? Your warm body is still sitting on the same seat doing exactly what it was doing at 2 months as it is doing after a year. Thank God FE'ing is almost gone or the above statement would be more than correct. Got to go study for a LOFT tomorrow, bye. So if a major made you pay for training but paid you 60 to 70K the first year the result would be the same. If the person has the bucks go for it, but like I said earlier they will miss the roses along the way.

 

[norskman2]

Metalleg,

Try these abbreviation glossaries ASAP.

http://www.gps.tc.faa.gov/glossary.html
http://www.aopa.ch/xgloss.htm

As for everyone's favorite abbreviation - PFT - well, you've clearly stepped into the middle of a minefield here. To overly simplify, PFT is when a pilot pays a company for training that is REQUIRED for a flying job. This does not cover ratings and other training that is transferrable to other jobs, but training that is specific to the company and position being hired into.

 

[Ty Webb]

Publisher:

You spend an awful lot of time defending Gulfstream. It is obvious to most people that the whole idea of buying time in a required crewmember seat is repugnant, for a variety of reasons, including:

1) Gulfstream takes a required crewmember seat, and rents it out by the hour, thus eliminating what would be an entry-level position.


2) The traveling public, buying a seat on a Part 121 carrier in scheduled service, deserves to have crewmembers selected on their qualifications, not by having rented out the pilot seat. You can say that "they have passed an F/O checkride" but simply manipulating the controls to perform the required tasks does not mean they have the experience to perform the duties.

3) The vast majority of Gulfstream's F/O's are smelly foreign nationals here on educational visas, yet here they are, sitting in a required crewmember seat! Sure, Gulfscab also has a few panicky rotorheads and the occaisional mindless, drooling half-wit, but the vast majority of GIA "pilots" I have come into contact with have been an odd collection of door-prizes.

Last- it should be apparent by now to almost anyone who has gagged over more than two of your mind-numbing, puke-provoking posts, that you are obviously a failed pro-pilot, with serious "issues" that could best be resolved by intensive therapy and/or repeated visits on the talk-show circuit.

In any event, here is a challenge for you, Scrublisher. How about finding, getting, training,and then keeping a real, Part 121 flying job? Challenge yourself. Try it out. Let us know how it goes . . . . . and remember, if you can't cut it anywhere else, there's always Gulfstream.

 

[Wefly4fun]

Heres a fine example of how GIA works.

Last summer I was working for a 1900D operator that was about to furlough some pilots. So since I had over 600hrs in the right seat of the 1900D and I am from Florida it would be logical to try to get on there. Now mind you I did not know much about them at the time. So I called the corp HQ on the phone about getting an interview and they refered me to their acadamy. When I called the acadamy they started going on about there ab intio program and that it was $20k. I politely stopped the guy who telling me all of the ups of the company and I told him that I was an experienced FO in the 1900D and did not need my private/commercial or multi ratings I just wanted a paying job. He very quickly told me the only way to get hired at GIA was to pay the $20k and go through there "acadamy". I told him that there was now way in #$@% that I would ever pay $20k for the privilage of flying a 1900D.

They don't want experience, they want the money.

acadamy=Money Machine

 

[bobbysamd]

Learning a trade or profession v. P-F-T

Metalleg38:

Here's the difference.

A person decides that he/she wants to be a lawyer. The person goes to college and law school to earn his J.D. and passes the bar examination. He/she paid for that education. Upon graduation from law school, the person starts to look for a job and is hired by a lawfirm. At that point, the lawfirm starts teaching the person how to be a lawyer. Law school teaches you the theory of law and how law works, but does not teach you how to be a lawyer. At any rate, the lawfirm is paying the tyro attorney full salary while he/she learns the nuts and bolts of practicing law. The new attorney has NOT written a check to the lawfirm to cover any cost of his/her training.

Now, let's substitute "pilot" for "lawyer."

A person decides that he/she wants to be a pilot. The person goes to training to earn his/her Commercial certificate and maybe a CFI. Upon graduation from training, the person starts to look for a job and is hired by a company. At that point, the company starts teaching the person its specific procedures. Flight training teaches you how to fly and the theory of flight, but does not give you the experience you need to advance to better positions. Only hours flying can give you that experience. At any rate, the company should pay the pilot during training (there are many pay schemes for new-hires) and full salary when the pilot goes to the line. The new pilot should NOT have to write a check to the company to cover any cost of his/her training.

See the difference?

By the way, people are hired to work in lawfirms with little education. They just are not hired as lawyers, legal secretaries, or paralegals.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[publisher]

TY

Ty,

Would not have been very difficult for me to get a 121 job, I started two of them and could just have hired myself.

Never had much interest in flying someone elses aircraft, unless of course it was the Russians or the Goodyear Blimp.

At nearing 60, probably too old to start now but you never know.

Do not much care what GIA has set up nor does it bother me. I enjoy the dabate. Don't really see much difference in this than the guys who used to want to be right seat in my King Air for free to get the time.

Don't really judge people by their participation when I do nnot know anything about them. I ahve not noticed any smelly foreign nationals or panicky rotor heads but I will keep an eye open next time I go by there. I did see a half with there once.

I have to go now, time for my therapy session. The doctor says he can cure this aviation thing.

 

[Ty Webb]

Heh heh heh. Glad to know that, while bereft of judgement on this topic, you do have a sense of humor . . . Good luck on the therapy thing, but the talk shows are cheaper.

 

[publisher]

air

That comes from the lack of oxygen at altitude. I tried the talk show bit but Real Networks is a pain to work with. Besides you never called in.

The next airline I start, I am going to call you and Flydog to come help me get it going and do things correctly. Avbug and Bobbysand have already signed on.

When I read these posts and get too morose, I pull out a flight attendant quiz I keep in my bag. One of the questions is as follows:

If a passenger boards the aircraft with more than one weapon, what steps do you take.
a) Take him to the captain
b) Ask him to leave one behind
c) Refuse him seating
d) Ask for identification.

For my money, take him to the captain wins every time. This is not from some ancient manual, this is from an airline in 1994. And you guys think you have it bad.

 

[bobbysamd]

F/A quiz

That's a trick question, Pub. More than one weapon?? I didn't know that in 1994 you could board with a weapon.

Gimme a call when you start the airline. Hopefully my mailbox won't be flooded with AARP junk mail by that time. I've already received some.

 

[Timebuilder]

Be sure to let me know, too. Since it won't happen for a while yet, I'll have jet PIC to offer.

 

[publisher]

True

That is from a Nigerian Airline handbook from 1994. It aklso dealt with passengers stealing toliet paper, grabbing the flight attendants breast when they were not a family member, etc.

One positive, the flight attendants served a warm meal with drink to everyone in less than 20 minutes.

I took a bunch of Eastern pilots down there to fly for this fellow we leased 737's to. They were not there long.

 

[Toddorts]

I've been following this debate for the past couple of weeks and I thought it was time I say something.

I am a crewmember and simulator instructor for Gulfstream. I also handle the evaluations of everyone that applies for the First Officer Program. Let me clarify a few things:

The Scab Issue:

Yes, there are several people in management at Gulfstream that were Eastern scabs including the company president Tom Cooper. However, I do not know of any pilot currently flying the line that was a scab at Eastern or anywhere else for that matter. It is ridiculous for the people on this forum to refer to the pilots at Gulfstream as "scabs." I think you all need to better educate yourselves on the meaning of the word "scab." None of us have ever broken a picket line. Most of the pilots at Gulfstream, including myself, disagree strongly with what our management did during the Eastern strike. Simply because we work for this company does not make us scabs.

Entrance To The Program:

As I said earlier, I am one of the people responsible for evaluating the pilots that are applying for our First Officer Program. Someone asked earlier whether we allow anyone who has 20k into the program. The answer is NO! There is a comprehensive written and sim evaluation for every candidate. The failure rate varies between 15-25 percent each month. If someone is not ready to be a 121 pilot, we do not hesitate to turn them away. There is also a 5-10 percent wash-out rate for people that do get past the entrance evaluation. Just like any other airline, we will turn you away if you are not qualified.

"Paying Your Dues":

Many people on this forum have referred to the importance of paying your dues. They have talked about flight instructing, banner towing, pipeline patrol, etc...
None of these things will prepare you to be an airline pilot. In fact, in most cases it only hurts. The people that have the most problems in their training are the high-time flight instructors. Sitting right seat in a Cessna for 2,000 hours does nothing but erode your flying skills. Most CFI's that enter the program can't even hold the glideslope. When I was getting my CFI rating the examiner told me this: "As a CFI you should never even think about touching the controls unless you are demonstrating something for the first time, or unless the student is about to get you killed." That does not translate into much time on the flight controls. You may be sitting in the airplane for 2,000 hours, but you only touched the controls 300 hours at most. On the other hand, the Gulfstream First Officer with 2,000 hours total time had his hands on the controls for 1,000 hours. It makes a big difference. Just being present in the airplane doesn't do your flying skills any good. You have to actually fly the airplane occassionally.

Job Opportunities After Gulfstream:

Many people on this forum have stated that Gulfstream pilots never make it on to another airline after Gulfstream. I can tell you from personal experience that that is not true. I have been at Gulfstream for under 2 years, and recently was offered a job at Northwest Airlink. I start class in May. An additional 26 Gulfstream pilots were also offered positions at Airlink. All will be starting class by September. Several other pilots have also been offered positions at Comair and Colgan. While all of you CFI's out there are having problems finding jobs in the post 9/11 industry, our PFT pilots are having no problems finding excellent jobs. The 121 turbine time makes a big difference. Comair and Northwest Airlink don't care whether we paid for the time or not.
I did my interview with Northwest Airlink with their Chief Pilot. I asked him why he decided to come to Gulfstream to recruit pilots. He said that most classes in the past have had a 40 percent wash-out rate because the pilots had nothing but single pilot CFI experience. They had never had any systems training, never been exposed to 121 regs, never had CRM training, etc... He said that he believes Gulfstream pilots will do much better because of their experience in a 121 environment. Flying a Cessna at 90 knots all day from the right seat does nothing to prepare you for a seat on an RJ.


In closing, I think it's time that you all reexamined your thoughts on this industry. The regionals are realizing that they are wasting too much money attempting to train CFI's to be regional jet pilots. It is simply too big a step to take without working for some place like Gulfstream first. Programs like Gulfstream's are the wave of the future. You may not like it, but you can expect PFT only to expand. It just makes more sense for the pilots and the airlines. The old way of "paying your dues" is quickly becoming outdated. I'll remind all of the instructors out there that 15 years ago the military pilots going into the airlines were saying that you didn't pay your dues like they did. The majority of pilots going to the airlines were ex-military and the civilian pilots were looked down upon. Now the industry has changed. Most airline pilots now come from a civilian background. The shift towards PFT is the same kind of change. I believe that 10 years from now, people will think of Gulfstream's program as the standard. Only time will tell, but it is obvious that this industry is changing rapidly. Don't allow yourselves to get left behind while you "pay your dues."

 

[bobbysamd]

CFIs as airline material

Very good post. Interesting and thoughtful. But, I disagree with you wholeheartedly about flight instructors not being good airline candidates.

There was a big airline hiring boom around fourteen years ago. I was a flight instructor at ERAU back then. Nearly ever instructor we had got on with commuter airlines as soon as they built up time. These were folks I worked with, and at least one or two were my students. They were doing their jobs and not hogging the controls during training flights. They apparently could fly adequately, because they were taking and passing their sim rides during their interviews. As far as I know, with few exceptions nearly every one of these flight instructors completed their initial training and went on to the line.

Two more examples. I was an instructor at FSI. Airlines hired FSI instructors. I do realize that in those days FSI had a P-F-T bridge arrangement with ASA and a couple of others, but non-PFT'ers were also being hired. I instructed at Mesa's flight school, too; instructors there were hired to the line. In fact, the real deal of MAPD was that instructors were hired to the line.

You might say that in those days that regional airlines were flying only props, and that flying jets is different. There was still plenty of challenging prop equipment in those days. I know that even today a significant number of regionals still put new-hires in prop equipment and not all regionals operate jets.

Stringent entry quals, washouts and success after Gulfstream "employment" notwithstanding, the point remains that FOs who are accepted and "work" for your airline still remit money and receive the job in return. That is wrong. Paying money to an employer for an interview opportunity or remitting money to an employer to cover training costs as a condition of employment, in ANY industry, is wrong.

 

[Ty Webb]

Thanks for writing, but it is very clear that, much like a battered spouse, you have had to convince yourself that the beating was justified. Hence, my answer here is not really for you- you've swallowed a fatal amount of the kool-aid already. My response is for the others who are reading this string:

The Scab Issue:

None of us have ever broken a picket line. Most of the pilots at Gulfstream, including myself, disagree strongly with what our management did during the Eastern strike. Simply because we work for this company does not make us scabs..

You miss the point here, Chief. It's not Cooper's past that people are referring to. It is the fact that a pilot who is willing to pay $18,800. to rent out a pilot seat he hasn't built enough experience to be competitively qualified for has already demonstrated that he doesn't care about damaging his profession, it's simply "me, me, me!" and the hell with getting experience the time-honored way. When the time comes for a strike, this person has already shown a blatant disregard for his profession and its traditions, so it's hard telling where his loyalty will be. Sorry if that hurts, but it's true.

Entrance To The Program:

As I said earlier, I am one of the people responsible for evaluating the pilots that are applying for our First Officer Program. Someone asked earlier whether we allow anyone who has 20k into the program. The answer is NO! There is a comprehensive written and sim evaluation for every candidate. The failure rate varies between 15-25 percent each month. If someone is not ready to be a 121 pilot, we do not hesitate to turn them away. There is also a 5-10 percent wash-out rate for people that do get past the entrance evaluation. Just like any other airline, we will turn you away if you are not qualified.

Of course there has to be some sort of evaluation, but the very fact that you are selecting from a group of pilots who are not competitive at a regional, and are therefore willing to pay nearly $20,000. speaks for itself. $20,000., by the way, is more than twice what Part 121 SIC training for a B1900 costs, so it is really not paying for training, but you are making money off of them.

"Paying Your Dues":

Many people on this forum have referred to the importance of paying your dues. They have talked about flight instructing, banner towing, pipeline patrol, etc...
None of these things will prepare you to be an airline pilot. In fact, in most cases it only hurts. The people that have the most problems in their training are the high-time flight instructors.

Sorry, Chief, but a motivated CFI keeps up his skills and has the pride and discipline to better himself by seeking out other opportunities as he progresses. Many go on to fly checks or find other work, flying piston twins or right seat in King Airs and Citations for local operators. A lazy CFI washes out at a regional interview, and goes to Gulfstream to buy some time and play airline pilot.

Job Opportunities After Gulfstream:

Many people on this forum have stated that Gulfstream pilots never make it on to another airline after Gulfstream. I can tell you from personal experience that that is not true. I have been at Gulfstream for under 2 years, and recently was offered a job at Northwest Airlink. I start class in May. .

No one said that they won't eventually get another job somewhere else, but most Gulfstream guys are shown the door without another job in hand- after their 250 hours is up, there is already another sucker lined up. We used to get resumes all the time from Gulfstreamers after their time was up, so you are one of the exceptions to the rule-( the most battered spouse- Congrats!). BTW, there are an awful lot of doors that will NOT be open to pilots after Gulfstream, you just won't know which ones. The Chief Pilots at the companies I have worked for simply threw Gulfstreamer resumes in the garbage- yet I was hired with no turbine time, so you can see what their$20,000. worth of rented turbine time was worth to some companies -ZERO-.

In closing, I think it's time that you all reexamined your thoughts on this industry. The regionals are realizing that they are wasting too much money attempting to train CFI's to be regional jet pilots. It is simply too big a step to take without working for some place like Gulfstream first.

Here you go again, Chief. Pretty big assumption for someone like yourself, with, what, a whopping two years' of industry experience?

In those two years, you have managed to pay $18,800. to Gulfstream, and, after two years there, you are now qualified to do exactly the same thing somewhere else, starting off as a newbie on reserve all over again, at first year pay. Hmmmnnn. The sad part is who knows how many other newbies you've infected with your particular brand of "knowlege".


Programs like Gulfstream's are the wave of the future. You may not like it, but you can expect PFT only to expand. It just makes more sense for the pilots and the airlines. The old way of "paying your dues" is quickly becoming outdated.

There is nothing outdated about building experience by working your way up until you are competitively qualified for the next step. That's called "paying your dues", and that hasn't changed. What has changed is that some greedy pilots like yourself will climb over the backs of more experienced pilots, waving their checkbook, screaming "me, me, me" which is why most of us detest Gulfstream.{/B]

The shift towards PFT is the same kind of change. I believe that 10 years from now, people will think of Gulfstream's program as the standard. Only time will tell, but it is obvious that this industry is changing rapidly. Don't allow yourselves to get left behind while you "pay your dues."

Nice sales pitch. I'm sure it makes 'em break out the checkbook. Only problem- people said the same crap eleven years ago when FSI was doing the same thing. Most regionals never went PFT, and those that did eventually dropped it. You are not the future, you're the past- you're just too new to know the difference.

Have a nice life. Now, run back to the arms of the abuser.

 

[de727ups]

"Industry is changing"

The only thing changing about the industry is supply and demand for pilots. Right now there is low demand so companies like GIA can charge a guy to sit in the right seat....which lowers the bar for the profession. Professional pilots should be as concerned with raising the bar as well as their own upward progression in the industry. I remember several years back when Comair and Eagle and some others were charging guys for their initial training....like around 10K. It was different from GIA's scheme, but the same result, buy a job. Many pilots were forced to go this route because there weren't many other options at the time....it was pay or don't play. In time.....the demand curve changed and the pay for a job schemes went away....except for GIA...unfortunately, there is always room for one.

Even in light of recent events....I can only hope airline management doesn't stoop so low as to start charging guys to sit in the right seat.....we may be forced to give up things through collective bargining to keep it from happening....but it would be worth it. Hey....do they have a union at GIA?

Toodorts...I don't know what you were doing 15 years ago....maybe you could tell us. I was flying Convairs and 13 years ago I had my initial class at UPS. Much to my surprize, I was NEVER looked down on as a civilian pilot by the military guys. I was prepared for it....for at the time military guys always seemed to have the easiest time getting into the majors compared to the civilians (some things never change). The military guys in my class were very nice and appreciated the things I had done to get there....including being an instructor.

Those that do the GIA thing will get a leg up on the competition....in the end, though, by paying to sit in the right seat they are cheapening the job and lowering the bar for the profession.....and airline managements always love that.

 

[GIACAPT]

Sayonara,...again.

IS GIACAPT still "a" in hiding?!- lol

350,

Glad to hear that you are thinking of me. I still read the thread once in a while. However, it sincerely is low on my list. The reason you most likely won't hear from me is because it is a broken record. I have contributed my song and there are no new points on the subject, just variations on a theme.

Also, it is a pain to dump my cookies and log on under this name. Ironically, like the real world, you won't know I [gia pft guy] am right next to you unless you ask. For you in particular, it must be stressfull not knowing if you should hate the guy next to you or not.

350DRIVER I think I've got you number; I am sorry you didn't get hired after your 250hrs here. On the brighter side, you're not missing much. Your post suggest you may be bi-polar. However, at best your posts are inconsistent, unenlightened, and immature. The above posted example is just one example.

Don't bother to reply as I assure you I will no longer respond to your posts.


Now to catch up on the other stuff.

Because of my screenname don't assume I am the patron-saint of PFT. I do not, however, hide from my mistakes. I got in this to give an sincere view from the other side and I have done that.
I have not promoted PFT.

As for PFT becoming the norm. I don't see it happening. In contrast, the writing is on the wall for PFT to dissappear at GIA. That is my opinion.

TodDorts, please don't destroy us further.

Checks, you have significant anger issues. You may want to copy and print your own post. You will be able to reference them later when you are scratching your head wonder why they (your future interviewers) didn't hire you.


As I said before most here is a reinvention of things previously stated. To the delight of some, you will no longer hear from GIACAPT.