Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[CDNJetPilot]

bobbysamd

Thanks for the reply. I'll keep at it for now. I'm working and do flight training on the weekends and some evenings. Once I complete my ratings, I'll consider and probably do the CFI program here (in Canada). I may have a chance to teach with the school I'm training at now. The bonus is it's my home town so I have places to stay for little $$$. And yes, I'll have more questions later for you I'm sure. Take Care.

 

[Medivacer]

CDN jetpilot:

I'm a Canadian pilot flying in Canada. I don't mean to disrespect what some here say, but they don't know what it's like here. However I will tell you this. The industry is very small here and PFT is a big no-no here aswell. You don't want your name associated with it.

I'm only months older than my teen years and flying. I eat, sleep and breath flying. My roomate is 30 and is in the same seat as I am (we work opposite "shifts" of each other). 25 is not old in this industry.

I'd very happy to answer any questions you might have. Feel free to PM me.

Best of luck to you endevours.

 

[de727ups]

PFT

<<I have no intention of trying to steal someone's job, and if an opportunity to work as an unpaid FO came along I'd take it.>>

PFT and working for free is stealing someone's job. Any questions?

 

[CDNJetPilot]

PFT

I guess where I was coming from with that one is I know of a small charter company near by who was willing to let me fly "FO" to build time and eventually they'd do my PPC on type and let me be the PIC. Otherwise the plane is flown single pilot. It's more of a ride along to learn rather than being a FO. Sorry, my wording was poor in that quote.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and Age Discrimination

It wasn't a matter of P-F-T being the "fastest" way in 1991-'92, it was really the only way for someone like me, at age 40, during a war and at the height of a recession. I will go to my grave believing that age was the reason for me being overlooked.

I look at it inductively. I had the same or better quals than my younger (25 or less) colleagues; they had nothing that gave them an advantage over me, such as 135 time. They were flight instructors, just like me. They were the ones being hired, not me. I was up front about my age because it would have been figured out eventually. I realized a small return on my resume output. The silence on my answering machine was deafening. My mailbox was a regular receptacle of occasional polite "we will keep your resume on file" postcards, while younger folks were getting the jobs that were available at these same companies. It takes neither a pilot or rocket scientist to figure it out.

I wanted to feel that it was my quals and personal attributes that would get me the job and not my balance sheet. It is one thing when people can meet you and decide for themselves if they don't like you. But, when your resumes are round-filed without anyone meeting you face-to-face it must be another reason if you're otherwise meeting or exceeding their requirements. I am convinced that for me it was because of age.

I could opine on the inherent unfairness of P-F-T letting you cut in front of the line of others (I guess I just did!). I feel that can have its consequences down the road.

It sure seems that P-F-T is alive and living in South Florida and elsewhere with all the magazine ads and posts of websites we see.

I think your Marine bud, Jim, will get his chance if he can instruct his way to commuter mins. USMC says a lot about him as a person, in and of itself. He certainly isn't too old. Someone like me, at my age back then, and now, apparently, was not congruent with the commuters' profile of the "perfect" candidate.

I appreciate your comments, Jim, about my sour grapes positions on P-F-T. As always, drop another couple of pennies into the P-F-T opinion fund for me.

 

[Timebuilder]

I didn't want to miss this golden opportunity to miss out on the revival of this old thread......oooooooohhhhhh baby!

As far as age discrimination is concerned, a former DO explained to me the other day that his opinion is this: the airlines want (his words here) pretty boys, meaning younger and vital looking, as opposed to better qualified, more experienced, more mature appearing "men" for their entry positions.

While this is a rather offensive over simplification of the situation, the truth is this: we have a youth culture, and "worship" the firm, the slim, the attractive more than any other qualities.

Before I was hired into my current job, I tried to get on with a school operator on Nantucket. Remeber, I have a deep "radio" voice, and I called him for more info. About five minutes into our conversation, he said, "Hey, how old are you, anyway?" I had two choices: complain about the question and be rejected for sure, or be honest. My honesty triggered a list of "facts" that were intended to dissuade me from persuing this job. They were effective, too.

Some operators offer a job that only a guy of 20, living with mom and dad, would want. Others, like airlines and corporate (fortune 500) have an idea of what a pilot should look like, and youth is a component. Remember, ALL affirmative action hiring has no interest in anything but what the applicant looks like.

On PFT: don't do something that cheapens both yourself and your industry. This is a life lesson, not just a comment on aviation hiring.

 

[bobbysamd]

Life begins at 40 . . sometimes .. redux

Now, that's interesting. Here, again, I had some interviews. Dunno why, but I wasn't hired. Some I did okay, some, maybe not, but people are hired, even after doing a bad interview. But, at least they met me, which I appreciated, even to this day. Guess I wasn't "pretty" or "vital-looking." I don't understand that, considering that people mistake me for someone fifteen years younger (that would be 36 - still too old! ).

As far as pay goes, well, I was willing to start at the bottom of scale. I took a pay cut to leave radio for aviation, and it really wasn't that much of a pay cut, especially considering that I would not have to pay for my flying anymore. It would have been tough, but at the time I wasn't married or had a mortgage. Second-year pay would have been close to what I was making as a flight instructor.

On my round file examples, well, I guess it's true, after all. You can judge a book by its cover.

 

[de727ups]

the old thread has life.....

Bobbysamd...I've never thought you to be "bitter" as James called you....and I've always enjoyed your posts. He thinks your bitter because you disagree with his position. It's too bad you couldn't make what you're making now as a PFI...professional flight instructor....I think you'd be great at it.

JimFlyNavy....next time your sitting around the bar with your airline buddies pondering PFT...try thinking about it this way.

Hawaiian Air (or Fedex, or UAL, or UPS) decides they can make money by putting a low time F/O who's willing to pay for their own ground school, sim time, and IOE, in the right seat of a 717 (or 727, or Airbus, or DC-8)...thus making the right seat a profit center. Management is happy because this reduces training costs and raises the bottom line. The FAA doesn't care because, while the guy is low time, he meets the minimum standards to be in that seat.

I'm guessing if you posed the question in that way, your airline buddies would have a different opinion of PFT. Airline pilots generally don't care about what happens at the bottom of the food chain until it comes up and nips them in the butt. Then all hell breaks loose....

PFT lowers the bar of the profession by encouraging management to take advantage of pilots by making the right seat a profit center rather than part of a normal career. I think PFT could grow and become the norm....and I think it could grow into the ranks of transport catagory aircraft. What's to stop it from going that far...after all, it's only business, right?

CDNJetPilot....personally, I don't believe what you are thinking of is PFT. If you can figure out a way to log the right seat time then go for it. If the company will hire you later because you showed an interest by riding along....that's great. If you aren't paying for the right seat time and if the aircraft doesn't require an F/O anyway...I'd hardly call it PFT.

 

[TWA Dude]

Pilots are special people and flying is a special profession. That's what we'd all like to believe but in fact aviation is still a business. We enjoy the fact that our promotions are based on seniority rather than merit but in the rest of the business world anything goes. The fact that PFT means that those with money may advance quicker than those without sounds real unfair but what makes aviation above the fray? Some pilots luck into an entry level job that gets them multi time while other languish for years because they knew the right people. Nepotism is alive and well in hiring. Is any of that fair?

Whether it's PFT or Scope or safety or just how we like to fly our approaches pilots are very quick to say that anyone who disagrees with them are wrong or unethical. Well, in the 1990's thousands of PFT pilots were hired and have since moved up without prejudice to the majors. Has our precious profession been damaged? One could argue either way but it all comes down to supply versus demand. ALPA could've tried to forcibly end PFT sooner but it didn't; it took regular market forces. Aviation will survive one way or the other.

 

[414Flyer]

Jim, would you mind if Hawaiian made some of the FE or FO seats non paying, or charged pilots to do that job, so they could get "the time they need"? How is it any different is some place like Gulfstream does it compared to Hawaiian?

I also think beating people over the head after the fact though, only does so good. It might make an example for the others, but there is also a need to educate people about how it is not in anyones long term interest to do it, and that aviation will be better off if pilots do not lower themselves to do that.

Maybe if we all can do a better job in educating and ensuring that others who are getting a start in aviation, realize early on how this is not something good to do, (same goes for scabbing too) we can have more jobs out there, and stop having this debate

I think instructors have a good chance to impress this upon students since they are interacting with them and teach them from the beginning

 

[Timebuilder]

Amen to market forces.

We all have to remember tht we are a part of those market forces. Active discouragement of something that we perceive as having a negative impact on our business is a responsibility for those of us who see aviation as a special business, one worth preserving as a profession that requires more than a checkbook for entry.

If we fail to communicate the downside of PFT to the young pilot and the aviation industry, we have only ourselves to blame.

 

[bobbysamd]

Re: the old thread has life.....

Bobbysamd...I've never thought you to be "bitter" as James called you....and I've always enjoyed your posts. He thinks your bitter because you disagree with his position.

Thanks, my friend. I just try to state the facts as I see them. I'd love to see proof that I was wrong. Then, I'd recant everything I've said about age discrimination. That will happen on a cold day in July. I'd admit to a certain amount of sour grapes - who wouldn't have them in my position? Don't forget people who are ousted from training only because some punk ground or sim instructor didn't like them. Along with a termination, these folks have a PRIA problem to deal with, as well.

It's too bad you couldn't make what you're making now as a PFI...professional flight instructor....I think you'd be great at it.

Thanks, again. I turned in that direction after it was obvious I had no chance at the commuters. I would have been happy with that because I liked instructing. Still do. Maybe, someday . . . . .

 

[publisher]

never ending

Good to see we have not let this rest yet and the old and familar faces are back.

I guess that where I come from is that there is nothing fair about any of this. Is there age descrimination, of course. Does the chief pilots son get preference, yes. Can the companies presidents next door neighbor's son get ahead of you. Absolutely. Can someone who went throught the Gultstream or Comair or some other program get ahead past others with more time and talent, probably.

It is not a fair world. It is not a fair game. It is life. Does the guy who could afford the advance degree have preference over the one that could not, absolutely.

We can whine about it, bitch about it, but the only time we can really do anything about it is if we are the employer.

 

[TurboS7]

Whoever dug this one up out of the archives should get into politics. Just goes to show you whatever you quote on this board could be headlines next week.

 

[Dieterly]

Bobby,

Enough whining about your age and not getting a job back in early -90's, I know for a fact that at Mesa, there were older guys than you getting hired at the same time. Maybe your problem wasn't your age, it could have been a number of things. But I also know that when PFT started, it didn't exactly help us that didn't wanna pay, to find a job.

 

[bobbysamd]

I just compare my quals to my peer group of flight instructors. Virtually identical and nothing of which I was aware that would give them an advantage.

Now, if you're talking about 40-year-olds with massive amount of freight, charter and turbine time, that's another story. No way I could compete with them. Just the same, Mesa was hiring plenty of flight instructors during those years.

I agree with your P-F-T comment wholeheartedly. That threw a wildcard into the mix for everyone.

 

[FatesPilot]

GIA Fact Sheet

I'm still amazed at the level of attention a little "joke" airline can make. Here are some facts:

For those of you thinking about alerting the Florida media regarding Gulfstream Intl. Airlines, it has been tried and failed. They spend quite a bit on local advertisement ya know. God Bless Capitalism.

They have not had a fatal accident in their 15 year history. However there have been numerous incidents: doors opening in flight, gear failures, engine failures, smoke in the cockpit, gear up landings, hazmat transport, loading overgross, flying 20 pax in a 19 pax aircraft, etc.

They are the first scheduled airline into Cuba since the invasion. Imagine that, a flag carrier using Beech 1900s.

Did anyone mention that FOs in their PFT program are paid for every flight hour? That includes the 250 hours in the training contract. It starts at $8/hr and tops at $17/hr (circa '01).

A newly minted pilot in Florida can spend $18,000 to get his/her ratings--to make $8/hr teaching. Or they can spend equivalent money and log SIC time in a 1900D making $8/hr. Hmm...

No one has mentioned that over 35% of GIA's pilots are not US Citizens.

There are former Gulfstream pilots at virtually every major/regional airline in the US. I know of ones at ASA, United, American, Southwest, Northwest, SkyWest, Air Wisconsin, and CoEx.

Hope this sheds more light on the REALITY of what goes on at GIA.

 

[Freight Dog]

I think the moderator should close this thread unless he's trying to set the record for the longest link around..

Bottom line, it's pointless arguing this. People are questioning the integrity of those who offer to pay to sit in the required crewmember seat, in other words, paying for a job that should be a paying job, especially with thousands of qualified pilots on the street.

Moderator... PLEEEEEEEEEASE close this thread!

 

[bobbysamd]

Sure would make for an interesting bar discussion, though, if we all got together!!

I agree, enough is enough. Hopefully, this discussion has helped to inform people about P-F-T, pro and con.

 

[1.3XVso]

whats the point

Hello fellow aviators!! I'm new at this thread and from what i've been searching this is a great website with lots info on whats up. My deal is now is this: I was a formally student at Comair now i'm attending GULFSTREAM. Now as much as i've been reading other threads i surely wished i knew about this site. What i've been reading had made me ask myself questions about whats the ordeal with gulfstream. I concluded a couple of things. First its always the same people with the same opinions and i respect that since you guys have expierience. Second , fine i just learned the legacy of what you guys call " scabs" fine TC is a scab like they say and ok fine he is but i don't care i'm just training trying to make it so whats the deal! Third i'm not a rich kid this is all hardwork and loans. So to conclude this nonsense post i think that theres 2 reason why the PFT program is'nt respected:

I. Keeping it the old traditional way of CFI'ing ( which i don't mind)


II. If envy or jealously is part of it, is'nt this a team work of family of aviation? I mean if money was a issue sure i would CFI but i got the loans why not this way.


In conclusion dudes and dudets i've gotten both side of the story and i've gotten more positive about PFT then the negative ones. I understand that there's lots of qualified and super talented pilots out there but i know for a fact that if money was there , pft would be accepted. And for the dudes that have 400 hours and think that have 10 logs come on take it easy.


fly safe all