Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?

[Timebuilder]

Re: indignation

While the rightous indignation of a few is appreciated, for surely they will hold the profession on their backs with the integrity we all can only wish we had, their sense of the correct is admirable.

Meantime, over the years, I hired a bunch of pilots. None of this meant anything to me at all.

Lastly, none of these jobs are YOUR jobs. They are employer jobs. GIA set this up from the start as a time builder operation for the F/o's. I may not agree with what they did or how they do it, but, it is certainly their right to set it up that way.

You can not lose that which you never had.

Actually, a sense of what is "correct" is the basis of the moral fiber of a civilized society, but I digress.

While none of this meant anything to you, I have found sufficient animosity in the aviation community in regards to PFT to give me pause.

If the owner is flying the plane, he can call that his job. If I am a professional aviator, and the owner wants to put two pilots there in his aircraft, then we can call those jobs our jobs.

No, I think there is only a small chance that he set this up as a method of helping FO's to build time. More likely, he found that some pilots didn't mind taking the short and easy route, and he could save money in the process.

Just as it is their right to set up a business any way they choose, it is our responsibility to provide ".....the rest of the story".

Goooood day!

 

[kilomike]

GIA should NOT have the right to rip the passengers off by having an FO buy that seat!!! Passengers are entitled to have qualified flight crew and in my eyes some bozo who buys a job at 250 hours is NOT qualified!!! I, a ticketed passenger has more than ten times that in flight time and I think that is ridiculous.

Secondly, GIA or any other pft scum should NOT have the right to have pft programs. PFT is NOT an enhancement to safety in any way shape or form and should be illegal and punishable by a $250,000 fine and 20 years in prison. Passengers' lives are needlessly put at risk when there are countless pilots with plenty of experience available on the market who could take me and other pax safely and reliably to where we need to go. I feel comfortable on Allegheny and Piedmont--my understanding is that most of their FO's have at least 1500 hours when they are hired. Makes me feel much more comfortable when I'm sitting in the back travelling along and reading the paper.

And DONT mistake me for a Communist or any other dumb remarks like that since that's not true. Communism did not work and I saw this firsthand. Free enterprise is great as long as the public's rights are not trampled. IN this case the passenger's right to expect a safe flight is being taken away by having a pft program and to make matters worse the rights of pilots, too, to have a decent living wage--pft drags pilots' salaries down and I don't want that to happen!! I have the right to expect that some of my ticket money will go to PAY both the captain and first officer. That's what they are supposed to be there for to get paid for their job of getting me there safely!!

I have the ultimate goal of running my own business in the future, and I have rights but I also have responsibilities to the public not to pollute or use such cheap labor that I have incompetents in my shop who could end up injuring someone by making an unsafe product!! That Cooper jerk should realize that he has responsibilities to the public and to own up to those responsibilities by PAYING his crews. But no he is an irresponsible scab. He and other pft operators should be put in the clink for a LOOOOOOONG time!! There is no place in business for recklessness and putting people in danger like this!!

 

[Freight Dog]

FreightDog,

Howzit

TAB Express advertizes an interview with Island Air. You could be flying with several TAB FO and not even know it. What would you do if you found several working at Island Air with you..
Surfs been good for several weeks now..Hope you've had time to enjoy it........Mahalo 4 your time.

Howzit 8sm!

Yeah... just got back from Haleiwa, was nice!! Trades are back and they were calling 3-4, but it looked more like 4-6 as there were some really nice sets, offshore breeze.. spent all afternoon there riding my 10'0.

About TAB Express, I didn't even know about them advertising anything about Island Air. I do know we get Pacific Wings SIC's who struggle through training and flunk out in the sim. Granted, it's not all, but a number of them. Goes right to the heart of what I'm saying... Could it be the fact that they were not exposed to IFR? Could it be that they had their hands held the whole time while flying? You see.. numbers in your logbook mean diddly. It's experience that counts. Sure you can buy 200 hours of multi time from an outfit, it doesn't do squat for you. Would the company care how well you do? Well, maybe/maybe not. After all, you pay them for the privilege of being there. I flew with some SIC's in my freight days that had no business being there, and I couldn't believe they didn't teach them some basic things in training. Instead they wanted their money.

In essence.. it's the SIC that gets cheated in the long run. Experience? Nawww.. Flight time in the book? Sure! Who suffers in the long run? It's the SIC.

This is not to mention the flying public i.e. the pax that do not know about this.

Aloha!

 

[de727ups]

Major Leage Baseball pitcher, huh...

I piped in early on this thread as anti-PFT and have been lurking ever since. Some interesting points on all sides. I would say, again, that GIA hurts the profession by making pilots pay to sit in a seat that would traditionally be a job for someone....should be a job for someone. I've moderated my position a bit in wondering if perhaps the Pacific Wings (C402), Alpine (B99), and Ameriflight (Metro and others) schemes aren't so bad because those right seats would normally not be occupied anyway....so if a low timer wants to pay to log right seat time in what would otherwise be an unoccupied seat....maybe it's not so bad. We'd call it PFMTT...pay for multi turbine time....hehe. But to take a right seat B1900 pax job and make a guy pay to take it....well, it's not not right IMO....because it encourages airlines to take advantage of pilots, and there's already enough of that going around.

As for the comment that one is as likely to get a major job in aviation as to be a major leage pitcher.....

I'm a 40 year old 727 F/O for UPS...I made 150K last year. I'm a very normal, unremarkable, average person in most every way. I got the four year degree early on and worked my way up the civillian route. No PFT, No Scab, and went though the mid-80's hiring drought. I got a major job on my third major interview...being turned down by World and then Continental. Eight years between out of ERAU and into a major job. I didn't know anyone at UPS, just sent in my resume. I've always felt that if I could make it to this level...then anyone who is willing to work as hard as I did should be able to as well....you gotta fill all the squares and put in your time...weather the storm....and you can do it. The worst thing you could do is be a scab...I didn't always know that.....but now I'm here to tell you that it might seem like a way to get ahead at the time, but in the end, it's a huge mistake....kinda like drinking 12 beers.

Good luck to all....

 

[8sm]

Freightdog,

Uh brada, you sure know how to make a brada jealous, Haleiwa side go for broke. And on the way home, hook-em at Matsumoto's for daKind. No Leo O' Ke Kai

Still plugging away and enjoying the CFI experience, soon to move on to AmeraF or Airnet for somemore fun then hopefully IslandAir. Nanakuli Rules

Aloha for now.........8sm

 

[AWACoff]

Totally off topic but I was over at Sandys Beach last week and the surf was definitely up. They were calling 3-6. Beats me if it was or not but the surfers were riding inside the curl off of Full Point....yikes. That's big for mainlanders.

 

[8sm]

AWACoff,

You've got to have a large set of *#*&%'s for them big waves.
Mostly been off of DiamondHead myself, spent sometime on the Northshore in December about 6-7am not to bad then. But watch out as the Sun starts climbing. I'm to old for those big sets. I leave that for my 15yr old son, soon to turn pro. Now that will turn my grayhair, white.

Aloha for now....8sm

 

[Timebuilder]

Surfing.

I'll add that to my list of Things to Do.

 

[publisher]

Whoa

Hold on a minute.


First, check the times of those hired at F/o positions across the entire regionl board on the minimum side.

Second, answer me this. Are the people, paid or not paid, legal for the seat they are in?

Third, do you know the total time or times of any of these people at all?

Or, are you assuming because they entered this program they are incompetent and do not have any other flight experience.

If someone has 1100 tt that they got flight instructing, 125 multi engine, and were merely trying to pick up some turbine in an airline situation, are they not qualified for the seat and have about the same level of experience as a good many f/o's.

To say that this should be illegal and punishable by a large fine is over the line.

 

[Timebuilder]

While not illegal, it is certainly unconventional. Perhaps the best way to fight this would be to establish a 501 C 3 to disseminate safety information to the public in the style of "issue" political ads, asking:

"do you know who is flying you from Florida to the islands? One of your pilots could have purchased the right to fly as a first officer on your airline. Instead of hiring and paying a co-pilot, your airline may be using a revolving door of trainees who are so eager to fill their logbooks with "experience" that they have bypassed the seasoning process used by over ninety nine percent of professional pilots. Before you fly, ask if your copilot is paying for training. Brought to you by the concerned pilot's safety council."

Veteran narrator Peter Thomas could do the voice-over, as he lives in Florida. You'd know his voice from A&E, TLC, the History Channel, and over 5,000 commercials.



I don't think a large fine would be necessary.

 

[Checks]

"because it encourages airlines to take advantage of pilots, and there's already enough of that going around."

Exactly! Everything else on this thread is just extra B.S.

Then again, I hope everyone has to PFT for every position in Aviation. That would be way cool! Instead of getting paid 150K a year you should have to pay 50K a year to fly that 727. If a B1900 is worth 20K then I am sure a 727 is worth 50K. Come on UPS guy, get with the PFT program. You non-PFTers make me sick!If you REALLY want to make it then "step up to the plate" and throw that cash down!

 

[Ty Webb]

Scrublisher is technically correct when he says that we do not have a "right" to those jobs, at least without a nationwide pilot's guild or union. A guild or union would actually be a great thing- imagine being able to accumulate seniority, period, and not have to start over each time a company goes under or you want to move!

Anyway, back to the subject at hand- I guarantee you that the person in Houston who buys a ticket on Continental to Key West would be outraged to learn that the "Co-pilot" on the last leg was paying to be flying the airplane- and probably is not even a US citizen, here on an educational Visa!

I am surprised that bit of info has not made it onto "Dateline" or "60 Minutes" yet. Obviously, Scrublisher's e-rag won't ever cover the story, GIA buys too many ads at AEPS and other "Come, BE a PILOT" rags.

 

[publisher]

Ty

TY,

What story?

Is the guy not covered by the same rules and regulations as the rest of you. Is he paying GIA or the FAA. Do not they still govern the situation?

As to your point on seniority, is that not seniority at a company not in life. Companies pay more to higher seniority people as they have been with them and supposedly doing good work for a longer period. Not, heh, you did a great job for United for 14 years, I should reward you with some extra pay for your loyal service to them.

You keep bringing up that advertising point even though I said they only advertised once in a two year period. That would certainly keep me from saying anything negative about them.

I actually think that there is some merit to the dabate on pft in these type situations. I usually only jump in here when someone tries to argue a point that is not valid.

As I have said to you before, if inexperienced F/O' s was a sin, we would have a bunch of people in trouble. There are still chief pilots, check airman, and faa inspectors that are not going to put people in the cockpit because they are in a paid training program.

The trouble is that some read my disagreement with them as my wildly supporting PFT. Not the case.

 

[bobbysamd]

And the beat goes on . . . .

Another way to look at this is whether some people deserve special hiring privileges over others. I think this debate in part boils down to that issue. That's one of my issues with P-F-T.

Throughout this thread and other P-F-T threads suggestions and references are made that perhaps individual "A" deserves special privileges because he/she is 35 and is getting older fast, or individual "B" has too much rotor and not enough airplane. Apparently if you can (afford to) P-F-T you can obtain special treatment.

It's just my .02 opinion, but everyone should be afforded an equal chance - meaning no special treatment in hiring (or the best hiring money can buy). I go back to my example from before about the broadcasting business. It took me several years of hard work to get where I finally got in my radio career - and I was still working a lousy shift. I was working that shift on a promise from my boss that I would move back to the regular day shift for which I was hired. Perhaps a year later, he hired someone, ostensibly for my shift, but when he found out this fellow had played college baseball he put him on days. Seems that he wanted the guy to help him coach his Little League ball team. That didn't seem very fair to me.

 

[Timebuilder]

>>As I have said to you before, if inexperienced F/O' s was a sin, we would have a bunch of people in trouble. There are still chief pilots, check airman, and faa inspectors that are not going to put people in the cockpit because they are in a paid training program.


I think the "sin" in this isn't that the first officer is a human who is capable of error, but that he has bypassed the hiring regime, the screening process if you will, that would normally be in place. The previous experience, the resume, the pool, the interview, and finally, the company paid training and initial experience leading to a real job performed by a paid professional pilot, without a 250 hour time limit. A conventional FO continues to build experience past the 250 hour mark, while the PFT FO is ousted for another neophyte, taking the experience in the cockpit back to where it was 250 hours ago.

And sure, when I say "our jobs", it isn't in the legal sense. It's more the moral sense.

If pilots refuse this type of plan, it can't continue. Knowledge really is power.