I started this whole thing when I was 16 years old, I started flying professionally at the age of 18. I supported and paid for my college education by flight instructing. If I were at a position of being 33 and wanting to start a new career with a wife and a family and I had the cash, PFT is the only way to go. I can attest that until you get into the seat of a large airplane you will not make the kind of money you need to pay the bills. I don't mean the majors but any large aircraft. The big airplanes pay the bills. I made 60k flying Learjets and now with the 737-800 I get paid 88K per year with OT and a lot of hard work. I know this is just chicken feed for our major airlines friends but I am in the minor leagues and more than not I will stay here. I just don't have that much time left. I have flown a solid 500 hours per year since I started, so you guys can figure out my age. I agree with the previous post, if you don't have the time PFT is the way to go. If you do have the time to smell the roses and and get some great experience along the way, more power to you. The bottom line is getting to a job that you can pay the bills and give you one of the other pleasures in life-raising a family. There is nothing in the world like watching your high school son hit a home run.....nothing.
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Anyone fly for Gulfstream out there?
- Thread starter Sppedmode
- Start date
- Watchers 41
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 4,625
Intersting, GIA.
NONE of the people who talked me out of going PFT were instructors. They were experienced aviators who ended up flying for majors after a host of experiences. No one paid for the priviledge.
Both military pilot trainees and medical residents are some of the most highly screened people on the planet. They are atypical, and that is why they are so successful. Both receive pay during this phase of their training.
As I have said, this board is a group of pilots who are sharing opinions and perspectives based on insight and experience. The more we can get together on the same page, the better off we will be in the long run. Keeping the new pilots informed about this topic helps to make it less prevalent.
As for age as a deciding factor: there is no one here who is as old as I am (of those who have posted) and I am not going to go PFT just because I have less time to burn than a 22 year old. I want to follow the advice I have been given because I value the source of the advice, not because I am working as an instructor.
NONE of the people who talked me out of going PFT were instructors. They were experienced aviators who ended up flying for majors after a host of experiences. No one paid for the priviledge.
Both military pilot trainees and medical residents are some of the most highly screened people on the planet. They are atypical, and that is why they are so successful. Both receive pay during this phase of their training.
As I have said, this board is a group of pilots who are sharing opinions and perspectives based on insight and experience. The more we can get together on the same page, the better off we will be in the long run. Keeping the new pilots informed about this topic helps to make it less prevalent.
As for age as a deciding factor: there is no one here who is as old as I am (of those who have posted) and I am not going to go PFT just because I have less time to burn than a 22 year old. I want to follow the advice I have been given because I value the source of the advice, not because I am working as an instructor.
Sppedmode
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 110
I think I'm sorry I even started this thread...
The only thing I don't understand about PFT is the fact that it is faster for older guys to build time. I don't agree, I instructed 800 hours in 12 months had 1200 total and 200 multi in less than 18 months from getting my pvt.
The other thing is what you learn about yourself from instructing. Its one thing to get through a checkride or what not, but when you are responsible for teaching a pvt or intr. student, you really have to know your $hit. I learned more from instructing than I ever did getting all my ratings. You find out your limits in the airplane by letting the student control the a/c until it's time for you to take the controls. Lets face it, when you become a capt, f/o's are going to be looking to you to teach them something new.
When I go on 3-4 day trips with capts, I wait and ask them thier background on the second or third day. I can always tell who was an instructor, who was military, and who just built their time on there own or PFT. The pilot who instructed always ends up teaching me something new about the airplane or gives me tips on flying. All are usually very tactful and careful not to intimidate or put others down. Again, just an observation...
To me, PFT is just taking the easy way out...even if you have the money and are 30-40 years old. You will learn so much more if you instruct to get your hours and feel better about yourself
:
The only thing I don't understand about PFT is the fact that it is faster for older guys to build time. I don't agree, I instructed 800 hours in 12 months had 1200 total and 200 multi in less than 18 months from getting my pvt.
The other thing is what you learn about yourself from instructing. Its one thing to get through a checkride or what not, but when you are responsible for teaching a pvt or intr. student, you really have to know your $hit. I learned more from instructing than I ever did getting all my ratings. You find out your limits in the airplane by letting the student control the a/c until it's time for you to take the controls. Lets face it, when you become a capt, f/o's are going to be looking to you to teach them something new.
When I go on 3-4 day trips with capts, I wait and ask them thier background on the second or third day. I can always tell who was an instructor, who was military, and who just built their time on there own or PFT. The pilot who instructed always ends up teaching me something new about the airplane or gives me tips on flying. All are usually very tactful and careful not to intimidate or put others down. Again, just an observation...
To me, PFT is just taking the easy way out...even if you have the money and are 30-40 years old. You will learn so much more if you instruct to get your hours and feel better about yourself
:
Freight Dog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,232
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
P-F-T for older people
As always, I read Pub's comments with interest. The fellow to whom he refers, at age 34, can still become qualified with having to resort to an "accelerated" program.
I was going on 38 when I got my first full-time aviation job. It was flight instructing at ERAU. I will say that going in I had 1340 hours and 51 of multi, so I was ahead of a lot of folks except for multi. Of course, it is multi PIC that matters. Within a year, I had over 2200 total and 270 of multi and my ATP. In those days, 1989, I was light in multi - and that was during a hiring boom and another alleged pilot shortage. Today, I might have had interviews with my 270 multi hours. A year and half later, my totals stood at 2650 and 565 multi. Most people needed 500 hours of multi in those days to be competitive - again, during a hiring boom and alleged pilot shortage. I actually turned down an interview with a commuter because I had signed a contract with Riddle. I interviewed with the same commuter later.
Get in with the right place and you can build time and go on to greener pastures.
I'm not saying that instructing is the only way to build time. Instructing is a time-honored, traditional, entry-level aviation job. If you can find real work doing other flying right out of flight training at 250 hours, more power to you. As a practical matter, instructing is about the only entry-level job available to most 250-hour pilots (MAPD notwithstanding).
Unless I don't understand how the medical profession works, although you are an M.D. upon graduation from medical school, you are still supervised closely as an intern and resident. You are not really practicing medicine. You are "practicing" medicine. And, you are paid.
As always, just more opinions.
As always, I read Pub's comments with interest. The fellow to whom he refers, at age 34, can still become qualified with having to resort to an "accelerated" program.
I was going on 38 when I got my first full-time aviation job. It was flight instructing at ERAU. I will say that going in I had 1340 hours and 51 of multi, so I was ahead of a lot of folks except for multi. Of course, it is multi PIC that matters. Within a year, I had over 2200 total and 270 of multi and my ATP. In those days, 1989, I was light in multi - and that was during a hiring boom and another alleged pilot shortage. Today, I might have had interviews with my 270 multi hours. A year and half later, my totals stood at 2650 and 565 multi. Most people needed 500 hours of multi in those days to be competitive - again, during a hiring boom and alleged pilot shortage. I actually turned down an interview with a commuter because I had signed a contract with Riddle. I interviewed with the same commuter later.
Get in with the right place and you can build time and go on to greener pastures.
I'm not saying that instructing is the only way to build time. Instructing is a time-honored, traditional, entry-level aviation job. If you can find real work doing other flying right out of flight training at 250 hours, more power to you. As a practical matter, instructing is about the only entry-level job available to most 250-hour pilots (MAPD notwithstanding).
Unless I don't understand how the medical profession works, although you are an M.D. upon graduation from medical school, you are still supervised closely as an intern and resident. You are not really practicing medicine. You are "practicing" medicine. And, you are paid.
As always, just more opinions.
Last edited:
172driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2002
- Posts
- 744
The debate is hilarious but I keep coming back to the same thought. I'd sure hate for my little sister to be on board if something happened to the captain! What if something happened to the captain and the a/c? 250 hrs of flying shiny new airplanes doesn't expose the FO to much...lost comms, system failures, ice, t'storms, or even IMC for that matter.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?
I can just see the FO experiencing the leans for the first time with a load of passengers.
BTW...I don't see why Comair is grouped with GIA throughout this thread. Yes, the academy is owned by the airline but the CFI's there pay their dues the same as anywhere else... 152's in the middle of a hot, sticky FL summer for 1000+ hrs with no guarantee of a job at the end.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?
I can just see the FO experiencing the leans for the first time with a load of passengers.
BTW...I don't see why Comair is grouped with GIA throughout this thread. Yes, the academy is owned by the airline but the CFI's there pay their dues the same as anywhere else... 152's in the middle of a hot, sticky FL summer for 1000+ hrs with no guarantee of a job at the end.
bobbysamd
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 5,710
Comair differentiation
Good point which should be made, again. Comair may be associated with the airline and does offer "the interview," but it is still just a large flight school. The certificates earned there can be marketed anywhere.
Same with MAPD, even though its training is very Mesa-specific. One would need a CFI or something to get a job if not hired by Mesa.
Good point which should be made, again. Comair may be associated with the airline and does offer "the interview," but it is still just a large flight school. The certificates earned there can be marketed anywhere.
Same with MAPD, even though its training is very Mesa-specific. One would need a CFI or something to get a job if not hired by Mesa.
BoredToDeath
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2001
- Posts
- 171
172driver wrote:
Many years ago Comair was the biggest PFTer of them all. Once you were hired I think it cost something like $12,000 to get the job. The only difference was that you got to keep the job after 250hrs unlike Gulfscum.
I felt for the instructors back then, they did work hard, but I belive they worked hard enough to not have had to shell out more of mom and dads money to be an airline pilot.
Many years ago Comair was the biggest PFTer of them all. Once you were hired I think it cost something like $12,000 to get the job. The only difference was that you got to keep the job after 250hrs unlike Gulfscum.
I felt for the instructors back then, they did work hard, but I belive they worked hard enough to not have had to shell out more of mom and dads money to be an airline pilot.
publisher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 592
Bobby,
Bobby,
My example is still valid... Right now, it may not be possible for someone with a newly minted CFI to get much work in the area that this fellow lives. That year and half or so you are talking about is one thing when you are single and have few responsiblities and another when you have a mortgage.
Your statement=== get in the right place-- may not be that easy for someone.
Furthermore, not all programs are really PFT. Tab Express offers an accelerated option which, whether you like it or not, is certainly not PFT.
I can see the argument on the GIA case, the paying for a job that would supposedly go to another paid pilot. That does not mean that there are not other programs like the Airnet program or TAB's that help you get there faster.
While instructing is certainly meritorius, the fact is that a whole bunch of people would have skipped that part if they could have.
Flying checks single pilot night IFR in a Beech Baron between CMH and CRW and CLT through the winter will get you sharp too. All without having to put up with a student.
Bobby,
My example is still valid... Right now, it may not be possible for someone with a newly minted CFI to get much work in the area that this fellow lives. That year and half or so you are talking about is one thing when you are single and have few responsiblities and another when you have a mortgage.
Your statement=== get in the right place-- may not be that easy for someone.
Furthermore, not all programs are really PFT. Tab Express offers an accelerated option which, whether you like it or not, is certainly not PFT.
I can see the argument on the GIA case, the paying for a job that would supposedly go to another paid pilot. That does not mean that there are not other programs like the Airnet program or TAB's that help you get there faster.
While instructing is certainly meritorius, the fact is that a whole bunch of people would have skipped that part if they could have.
Flying checks single pilot night IFR in a Beech Baron between CMH and CRW and CLT through the winter will get you sharp too. All without having to put up with a student.
172Driver:
This post is mostly for him, sorry guys.
" I'd sure hate for my little sister to be on board if something happened to the captain! What if something happened to the captain and the a/c? 250 hrs of flying shiny new airplanes doesn't expose the FO to much...lost comms, system failures, ice, t'storms, or even IMC for that matter.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?"
I just want to reply to that comment real quick: First the 1900s aren't new and shiny. Do they have problems, system failures? I experienced a couple minor ones while flying them just like there are with any airline. Did I experience ice, sure did, several times, even in good old florida. IMC? several times again, passengers even got sick due to a bad thunderstorm we had to fly through since it was too big to go around, get the radar set up, find a line between the stronger cells and work your way through. I know you only have 600 hours, and right now I only have a little more than 500 over you, does that make me a better pilot, who knows, but I think I have more experience in different situations then you. In a previous post on this subject, I said I was an instructor, did it for around 8 or 9 months, helped start up a flight school along with some training programs, went to gulfstream to get turbine time so I could go back to my old company and fly on a charter they were setting up with raytheon. Know what? After the sim training at gulfstream, they were talking about getting me type rated in the 1900 and do instructing since there weren't any permanent positions availabe due to 9-11. I must have done something right when they failed my engines, put them on fire, gave me the low oil pressure, electrical fire, had me fly through a level 5, failed both my engines and then failed my gear, in IMC, and still was able to follow the glide slope and put it down on the runway. I'm not trying to brag, I've had a lot of sim training in the past in T-37s, 727s, 757s, and 767s full motion sims.
To be honest, I don't care whether or not people agree or disagree with PFT. Someone in an earlier post told GIACapt I believe that he didn't have the right to try and change people's minds about PFT and Gulfstream, but isn't that what everyone else is trying to do on this board?? Just that they are trying to convince everyone that PFT is wrong, and GIACapt just happens to be in disagreement. Everyone has their own opinion. Do some major airline pilots dislike gulfstream? I would have to say probably quite a few, but I've met some who could care less, some who ask who are they, and some have even told me they hate it, but they don't hold anything against people who go there. Everyone has their reasons to go there, some better then others, but they do. If you get a position where you are able to hire someone, why not give them a shot, put them in a sim, test their abilities, if they took it as a fast route and still can't fly, I'm sure you'll be able to tell. But I think it is safe to say I think you would be surprised. We all went through the same checkrides the FAA mandates for any airline in any airplane. If they don't perform they aren't allowed to continue until they do. I know this for a fact for I saw it happen to someone.
Please finish up with the personal attacks because you do not know anything specific about the company except from what you have heard, you don't know what kind of conditions the guys fly through. I'm sure most of your time is spent in VFR weather since probably most is flight training, I did the same thing when I was an instructor so your IMC time might be down, but just like any airline, as in gulfstream, if there is a flight scheduled it leaves no matter what the weather is, unless the airport is closed. It makes for some fun and exciting flying. Good luck to you.
This post is mostly for him, sorry guys.
" I'd sure hate for my little sister to be on board if something happened to the captain! What if something happened to the captain and the a/c? 250 hrs of flying shiny new airplanes doesn't expose the FO to much...lost comms, system failures, ice, t'storms, or even IMC for that matter.
Trained in South Florida too...what do these guys have...3-5 hrs of IMC time? Oh well, I guess hood time is the same thing, right?"
I just want to reply to that comment real quick: First the 1900s aren't new and shiny. Do they have problems, system failures? I experienced a couple minor ones while flying them just like there are with any airline. Did I experience ice, sure did, several times, even in good old florida. IMC? several times again, passengers even got sick due to a bad thunderstorm we had to fly through since it was too big to go around, get the radar set up, find a line between the stronger cells and work your way through. I know you only have 600 hours, and right now I only have a little more than 500 over you, does that make me a better pilot, who knows, but I think I have more experience in different situations then you. In a previous post on this subject, I said I was an instructor, did it for around 8 or 9 months, helped start up a flight school along with some training programs, went to gulfstream to get turbine time so I could go back to my old company and fly on a charter they were setting up with raytheon. Know what? After the sim training at gulfstream, they were talking about getting me type rated in the 1900 and do instructing since there weren't any permanent positions availabe due to 9-11. I must have done something right when they failed my engines, put them on fire, gave me the low oil pressure, electrical fire, had me fly through a level 5, failed both my engines and then failed my gear, in IMC, and still was able to follow the glide slope and put it down on the runway. I'm not trying to brag, I've had a lot of sim training in the past in T-37s, 727s, 757s, and 767s full motion sims.
To be honest, I don't care whether or not people agree or disagree with PFT. Someone in an earlier post told GIACapt I believe that he didn't have the right to try and change people's minds about PFT and Gulfstream, but isn't that what everyone else is trying to do on this board?? Just that they are trying to convince everyone that PFT is wrong, and GIACapt just happens to be in disagreement. Everyone has their own opinion. Do some major airline pilots dislike gulfstream? I would have to say probably quite a few, but I've met some who could care less, some who ask who are they, and some have even told me they hate it, but they don't hold anything against people who go there. Everyone has their reasons to go there, some better then others, but they do. If you get a position where you are able to hire someone, why not give them a shot, put them in a sim, test their abilities, if they took it as a fast route and still can't fly, I'm sure you'll be able to tell. But I think it is safe to say I think you would be surprised. We all went through the same checkrides the FAA mandates for any airline in any airplane. If they don't perform they aren't allowed to continue until they do. I know this for a fact for I saw it happen to someone.
Please finish up with the personal attacks because you do not know anything specific about the company except from what you have heard, you don't know what kind of conditions the guys fly through. I'm sure most of your time is spent in VFR weather since probably most is flight training, I did the same thing when I was an instructor so your IMC time might be down, but just like any airline, as in gulfstream, if there is a flight scheduled it leaves no matter what the weather is, unless the airport is closed. It makes for some fun and exciting flying. Good luck to you.
172driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2002
- Posts
- 744
I think my post was directed at the FO with 250 hrs that I keep reading about in this thread. I have no problem with somebody who has some legit time in an airplane paying to build multi-turbine time...I would if I could. You have paid your dues--instructed, built some time, made some decisions, seen some things. The post was not an attack on you.
How well do those low time guys handle the emergencies you're talking about? I'm really not one to talk at 600 hrs but...simulation is a lot different than reality. Also, the ability of your low timers to pass an FAA checkride doesn't make me feel any more confident that they are safe pilots in daily ops. Especially if it took them more than one shot at the ride as you seem to imply happens...that's scary.
I have students who pass FAA rides all the time who I would not put my family with in an emergency situation. The checkride and subsequent license is a license to learn. Learning only takes place with time and time should not be built with unknowing passengers aboard IMO. Following your logic, you would feel that a freshly minted instrument pilot is safe to carry passengers in IMC because they passed a checkride in smooth VFR conditions under the hood?
IMO, at 250 hrs nobody is qualified to fly a 1900 with passengers on board, period. How much IMC time, decision making time, actual emergency experience do they have on day one of being a FO? Not ripping on you or GIA...just saying that I think pilots should build some time, as you did, before carrying passengers.
If not, maybe your company should inform the passengers that they're flying with FO's who have about 1/4 - 1/8 the experience of a normal 121 FO. Let them make an informed decision about their safety.
How well do those low time guys handle the emergencies you're talking about? I'm really not one to talk at 600 hrs but...simulation is a lot different than reality. Also, the ability of your low timers to pass an FAA checkride doesn't make me feel any more confident that they are safe pilots in daily ops. Especially if it took them more than one shot at the ride as you seem to imply happens...that's scary.
I have students who pass FAA rides all the time who I would not put my family with in an emergency situation. The checkride and subsequent license is a license to learn. Learning only takes place with time and time should not be built with unknowing passengers aboard IMO. Following your logic, you would feel that a freshly minted instrument pilot is safe to carry passengers in IMC because they passed a checkride in smooth VFR conditions under the hood?
IMO, at 250 hrs nobody is qualified to fly a 1900 with passengers on board, period. How much IMC time, decision making time, actual emergency experience do they have on day one of being a FO? Not ripping on you or GIA...just saying that I think pilots should build some time, as you did, before carrying passengers.
If not, maybe your company should inform the passengers that they're flying with FO's who have about 1/4 - 1/8 the experience of a normal 121 FO. Let them make an informed decision about their safety.
you have a very interesting mind and concept that nobody at 250 hours has no right to fly passengers, period" Kind of interesting since I have a couple friends who are in the air force flying fighters and a b-1 carrying missles and bombs and have not much more time then 250. They can kill a lot more people with their toys then a 1900 could. I only saw one person who had to have a little extra training, and I emphasize a little, one extra sim period to pass his ride in the 1900 sim. And let me state to you again, since I'm not sure if you read my previous post, we then have to pass a checkride in the airplane. So now you are having to pass two checkrides. But I'm sure that wouldn't matter to you since in your tone of your message it seems like you have passed every checkride you had. And also do you think the capt onboard only has 250hours? I know you don't but you seem to have forgotten that its a 2 man crew. The other opinions and posts on here were about PFT and I can see where they are coming from and some have legit complaints, but as far as what you are saying, I have to say you need to rethink your ideas.
Great Lakes has been known to hire low time FOs. They have never had a fatal accident that was their fault (Quincy is one I'm sure many crews remember). The last accident we had was the unbelievable gear up landing on 4R in ORD. Guess what...both pilots were fairly high time (FO was ex-military). Low time pilots are not accidents waiting to happen. They just have to work a lot harder. I have to agree with a lot of what Sharpeye posted. Flight instructing does not prepare you for the type of weather 121 flights are dispatched into. Only 121 style flying (including 135, corporate, etc..) can prepare you for picking your way through squall lines, landing with a couple of inches of ice on the plane, dealing with irate passengers, etc. I think the biggest thing flight instructing does is help you operate in a 2 pilot enviroment. That was truly the hardest part for me. On the accident note...how many crashes has Gulfstream had? I'm guessing not that many....if any at all.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
