Anderson to align capacity with demand

[BrickTop]

There really is no one factor suggesting any recovery is near. All the airlines do anymore is cut capacity, merge and downsize fleets, furlough and over work remaining crews. No attrition to retirement, as legacy carriers farm out more flying. The younger pilot group sees growth at their regionals but with no movement above hence no replacement of legacy senior pilots. The future will hold far less pilots period, as we bring in larger fleet types of the 70-120 seat range and reduce frequency and overlap with mergers. The ball is dark and murky. The best we can hope for is a total system revamp comprised of EMB-190 and CRJ-1000 type fleets with positions that pay $80,000 after 15 years of service.

 

[Monster Buck]

Point me to the way to the cliff, I'm just gonna jump. Its all over anyway.

 

[DTW320]

Blah, blah, blah. The facts are the facts. Your seniority moves up. Period. In 8 years, there could be another mandatory retirement change. NWA could have gone out of business, so could have Delta. There could be another merger. In 20 years you catch right back up. We can pick an arbitrary number of years ad nauseam. What is NOW is that NWA pilots have access to well over twice the widebody flying that they had via lack of fences. Big shiny airplane nothing. In 8 years man may be extinct. SJS=more dollars.

So stuff it. Your arguments are circular and illogical.

You're right. All that matters is right now. Live for Today! Man could be extinct tomorrow! What good will that seniority # do ya then? Wow, such Non-Circular Logic ya got there. So, why do we negotiate long contracts?

Like I said, it's ancient history now. "Don't piss on your leg and tell you it's raining????" How bout "Don't take double digit relative seniority from me and tell me I got a windfall"?

Stuff it yourself, with someone who is dumb enough to believe your misinformed drivel. Hey at least when I'm stuck seniority-wise in the future as DAL-S pilots enjoy NWA attrition I'll be stuck on a shiny DAL airplane. What I'm flying is really all that matters to real men ya know.

 

[PuffDriver]

You're right. All that matters is right now. Live for Today! Man could be extinct tomorrow! What good will that seniority # do ya then? Wow, such Non-Circular Logic ya got there. So, why do we negotiate long contracts?

Like I said, it's ancient history now. "Don't piss on your leg and tell you it's raining????" How bout "Don't take double digit relative seniority from me and tell me I got a windfall"?

Stuff it yourself, with someone who is dumb enough to believe your misinformed drivel. Hey at least when I'm stuck seniority-wise in the future as DAL-S pilots enjoy NWA attrition I'll be stuck on a shiny DAL airplane. What I'm flying is really all that matters to real men ya know.

Yup, and you sure won't enjoy future Delta attrition. Everyone retires eventually. The rest is just blather. It's ok, we're already getting used to the mentality. LIke you thinking it is about sjs. It is not. It is about pay and qol. Two things drastically lacking at NWA. OVer double the widebodies, longevity restored for furloughees, and the emergence of a DC plan. You got a windfall. Which is fine. So quit bitching and I'll shut up. Deal?

You guys are closing in fast on Joe Merchant for biggest crybabies.

 

[DTW320]

Yup, and you sure won't enjoy future Delta attrition. Everyone retires eventually. The rest is just blather. It's ok, we're already getting used to the mentality. LIke you thinking it is about sjs. It is not. It is about pay and qol. Two things drastically lacking at NWA. OVer double the widebodies, longevity restored for furloughees, and the emergence of a DC plan. You got a windfall. Which is fine. So quit bitching and I'll shut up. Deal?

You guys are closing in fast on Joe Merchant for biggest crybabies.

Everyone retires eventually. NWA guys will just retire about 10% less senior than they would have. Whatever. Let's see. The huge number of widebodies like the ER pay the same as the 757 at NWA. Pays the same but hey! it's a "widebody" so that should be enough for us to overlook the double digit relative seniority LOSS. SJS. Emergence of a DC plan? Did you mean "Emergency" of a DC Plan? I'm currently getting about 19% in my Targeted DC plan. What % will I get when I "windfall" to the DAL plan? At least I get my 150% premium for all credit over 80 for a few more months before that vanishes...I think around the time I start paying almost double for health insurance.

Crybabies? Nope. Like I said before, it's ancient history and was accepted a long time ago. Calling you out on unadulterated BS does not = crying about the contract or SLI. It's about accuracy. You've shown you have none. Quit spewing BS about how 10+% loss of relative seniority = a windfall and I'll shut up. Deal?

Windfall your ass. More like a slip & fall. You're clueless. Have fun in your Shiny Jet!

 

[licorice]

This PERFECTLY embodies the thought process of these guys: The ONLY thing that matters is that you will get to fly a big shiny DAL airplane. Your place on the seniority list now and DEFINITELY in the future on that big shiny DAL airplane shouldn't matter one bit to you. CLASSIC! SJS is alive and well at DAL-S

Gosh, dtw, I thought the 3rd paragraph you quoted and replied to was sort of conciliatory on my part. (compared to the first two, that is...)....Some of you no doubt may have your wildest shiny WB DAL jet wet-dreams come true after SOC. But as for SJS, I thought that had been part of the legitimate subject matter of our friendly little debate here.... You guys lose out on "what might have been" great attrition-fueled seniority but you insist that to make up for that loss you will actualize ASAP the potential gain in the short term by having been ratioed by category and position (let's face it, that was the ONLY reasonable and fair way to do it....you guys sort of expected it, -that's why you didn't go stark raving mad when the award came out) with a pilot group that has categories and positions with THREE times the number of unfenced widebodies that you have....Ergo, in staight mathematical ratios of seniority numbers assigned to shiny jet positions (stovepipe), some fNWA NB pilots will have the seniority (if they desire, and you do desire, don't you?) to hold shiny WB DAL jets in possibly more attractive bases, and post hoc, ergo propter hoc, they will have less seniority progression in the future to truly enjoy those WBs.

As for "what might have been" stand alone, you would have progressed higher eventually but to what? How long would cargo have lasted with the 742s? Why are the 744s "under the gun"? How long would you have had to wait, and wait, and wait.....for the 787s? And no doubt DAL would have had problems of their own.... Alpa merger policy states "preserve or improve pre-merger pilot status" and "preserve or improve pre-merger pay" but only says "minimize detrimental changes to career expectations " that is exactly what happened....only fNWA got the "improved" part of pilot status and the significantly "improved" part of the pay...

Now with both sides b!tching and whining in equal numbers about how they got screwed in the merger....there's your sign...

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Everyone retires eventually. NWA guys will just retire about 10% less senior than they would have. Whatever. Let's see. The huge number of widebodies like the ER pay the same as the 757 at NWA. Pays the same but hey! it's a "widebody" so that should be enough for us to overlook the double digit relative seniority LOSS. SJS. Emergence of a DC plan? Did you mean "Emergency" of a DC Plan? I'm currently getting about 19% in my Targeted DC plan. What % will I get when I "windfall" to the DAL plan? At least I get my 150% premium for all credit over 80 for a few more months before that vanishes...I think around the time I start paying almost double for health insurance.

Crybabies? Nope. Like I said before, it's ancient history and was accepted a long time ago. Calling you out on unadulterated BS does not = crying about the contract or SLI. It's about accuracy. You've shown you have none. Quit spewing BS about how 10+% loss of relative seniority = a windfall and I'll shut up. Deal?

Windfall your ass. More like a slip & fall. You're clueless. Have fun in your Shiny Jet!

Just for old time's sake detoilet. This one's for you, young lady! Try and pull up your skirt a little higher, the draft won't bother you as much!

:crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:

 

[licorice]

=DTW320;1833324]Everyone retires eventually.

NWA guys will just retire about 10% less senior than they would have.

Well, let's just examine what 10% loss of seniority at retirement means...mathematically, that is...Does it mean if you would have retired as # 10 you'll now retire as #11? or #100 but now #110? #1000 vs#1100?...I see a pattern developing here...it's sad, my, what a screw job! -But no, that couldn't be what you meant....did you mean 10% of the whole seniority list lower? hmmm...so those of you who would have retired #1 will now retire as #1200? #100 now #1300?..ah, another pattern developing, albeit much more unpalatable than the first..but also pure hogwash. What 10% do you mean, dtw?...I know, I know...you must have meant you would be retiring 10 percentile points lower on the list....but obviously not everyone at fNWA will share your fate...sorry you were in the wrong place at the wrong time at the wrong age and merged with a younger, better compensated pilot group flying better positions, on average.

Whatever. Let's see. The huge number of widebodies like the ER pay the same as the 757 at NWA.

..Don't you really mean to say "pay the same as the 757 now does at NWA?" -ie. you didn't mention that minor little annoyance that your 757 drivers realized a 16% pay gain in the last year because of Delta (11%) and the merger (5%)? Yes indeed, let's see, 767-bashing again, I know you must hate the sight of that singularly unimpressive airplane....using the merger numbers, you had 71 757s paying virtually the same as our MD88 fleet...the lowest positions we had. We had ~ 250 767s/757s that paid virtually the same (within $1.50/hr) or better (767-400) than your whopping grand total of 32 A-330s! I know before the merger you must have cringed at the thought of having 780% more airplanes paying your A330 rates, but only 40% more pilots to compete for those positions...but it would be fair if you got DOH...

Pays the same but hey! it's a "widebody" so that should be enough for us to overlook the double digit relative seniority LOSS. SJS.

Particularly ludicrous in light of the aforementioned....Yeah, premerger that scrawny, tarnished DAL 757 must have taken quite a bit of the luster off of those shiny new A330 premium widebody jets...

Emergence of a DC plan? Did you mean "Emergency" of a DC Plan? I'm currently getting about 19% in my Targeted DC plan. What % will I get when I "windfall" to the DAL plan?

Well, you'll get 9% but you undoubtedly deserve 10% more than all the DAL pilots, and up to 19% more than your fellow fNWA pilots...boy, you must have been hired in the right place at the right time and at the right age to "deserve" that rate...

At least I get my 150% premium for all credit over 80 for a few more months before that vanishes...I think around the time I start paying almost double for health insurance.

Wow, it goes on and on..neverending whining, If I didn't know better, I might conclude you are a crybaby...

Crybabies? Nope.

See, I knew it, take it like a man!

Like I said before, it's ancient history and was accepted a long time ago.

Exactly, just like you said before and reiterated in the above...you've accepted the 10% seniority loss, you've made peace with the idea you may have to fly a widebody for more money much sooner than you would have wanted...You accept that you don't deserve more than everyone else in a DC plan, you've accepted the "pay cut" "down" to DAL + 5% + greenslips payrates when the over 80 hr thing goes away...etc.etc.

Windfall your ass. More like a slip & fall. You're clueless. Have fun in your Shiny Jet!

Now just when we were getting somewhere you go and have a relapse..."fall off the wagon" so to speak...Did you give counsel or receive counsel from your reps about your dissatisfaction with the idea of this merger and contract? Were you part of the vociferous 13% who were against this merger and who might have carried the day in their cobra-like militancy were it not for that "87% were for it" thing? I wonder what the vote would be now.... I wonder if we could all vote again, what would it be?...50-50?...again, there's your sign of a fair merger....

 

[nwaredtail]

[

Well, let's just examine what 10% loss of seniority at retirement means...mathematically, that is...Does it mean if you would have retired as # 10 you'll now retire as #11? or #100 but now #110? #1000 vs#1100?

It means instead of holding 330,747,777 Int'l Captain for our last ten years, 320 or 757/767 junior Captain is the best we could hold, while the reverse is true for the DAL folks. Sounds like a win for your former side. Funny how this little tidbit gets glossed over by pilots who think NWA guys did better, GMAFB.

you've made peace with the idea you may have to fly a widebody for more money much sooner than you would have wanted.

..

Ummm, there has to be an opening on that seat and now there will be between 500-1000 more DAL pilots ahead of each NWA pilot bidding for that seat. Nice try though.

You accept that you don't deserve more than everyone else in a DC plan,

2500 NWA pilots lost their promised pension and the targeted DC plan was an attempt to get them near 50% (not 60% like the senior NWA pilots). It goes away now in exchange for 14%. A moot point. It has nothing to do will DAL S pilots. (hint, the world doesn't revolve around licorice boy)

you've accepted the "pay cut" "down" to DAL + 5% + greenslips payrates when the over 80 hr thing goes away...etc.etc.

About 30-60% of NWA pilots break 80 hours and get premium pay, care to tell everyone how many DAL guys get greenslips, we were told less than 5%.

 

[PuffDriver]

It means instead of holding 330,747,777 Int'l Captain for our last ten years, 320 or 757/767 junior Captain is the best we could hold, while the reverse is true for the DAL folks. Sounds like a win for your former side. Funny how this little tidbit gets glossed over by pilots who think NWA guys did better, GMAFB.

One of your esteemed colleagues pointed out that the 757 pays the same as the 767. First, it does that NOW, whereas it did not before. Second, there are more of them. Funny how THAT little tidbit seems to get glossed over EVERY time I mention it. You didn't have 777s. Your 747s is/are/were going away to be replaced--maybe--by a 787 which STILL isn't a reality airplane. There are too many variables for your statement to make even a little bit of sense. Not to mention the fact that NO pilot group has ever gotten dispensation for future retirements. When you merge, you get other pilots. It's part of the deal. The fact that you got ANY consideration for them stepped WAY outside the lines of usual arbitration awards. You have no idea what you will be able to hold down the line. The arbitration gave a fair representation of a fleet snapshot. The variables which have occurred since have been IMO equitable.

Ummm, there has to be an opening on that seat and now there will be between 500-1000 more DAL pilots ahead of each NWA pilot bidding for that seat. Nice try though.

It's called a combined list, with Delta pilots holding greater bidding power and larger access to those seats via a larger pilot group with better relative seniority. The DOH argument is a valid one, IMO, but wasn't used. Get over it. Crying won't help. NWA pilots have greater access to over twice the higher paying widebodies much sooner than they would have via another unprecedented award of no fences to the widebodies despite both sides asking for them.

2500 NWA pilots lost their promised pension and the targeted DC plan was an attempt to get them near 50% (not 60% like the senior NWA pilots). It goes away now in exchange for 14%. A moot point. It has nothing to do will DAL S pilots. (hint, the world doesn't revolve around licorice boy)

If it was a moot point, then it warranted no response yet got one. I won't bother to quote you the number of Delta pilots who had their pension terminated. Suffice to say it was more than the number of NWA pilots. Plus, the NWA pilots got the DC for nothing. Delta negotiated it. PLus the greater amount of pay raise, better work rules, yadda, yadda yadda. But, of course, seniority is everything. Despite the "10%" loss, it now buys you more than your original. Too bad that we "gloss over" that little tidbit.

About 30-60% of NWA pilots break 80 hours and get premium pay, care to tell everyone how many DAL guys get greenslips, we were told less than 5%.

Oh yes, the old 80 premium pay thing. One small tidbit in an enormous contract. I am all for it, but the more people who do it, the less people needed in each seat. That means less people needed for the bottom and top of the list. PLus, the little "glossed over" factoid that everything else adds up to more pay in the grand scheme AND you don't have to fly yourself into the ground.


From DTW:

Everyone retires eventually. NWA guys will just retire about 10% less senior than they would have. Whatever. Let's see. The huge number of widebodies like the ER pay the same as the 757 at NWA. Pays the same but hey! it's a "widebody" so that should be enough for us to overlook the double digit relative seniority LOSS. SJS.

Your numbers cannot stand alone. "Double digit" seniority loss means nothing. It is about what your seniority "buys" you. I know you just like to cry and cry about your 10%, but over the next 5 years, you likely would have retired the jets along with your pilots resulting in status quo. You guys like to harp on this stupid, irrelevant "fact"-put it in quotes as I do not accept it as fact. Get over yourselves. There were almost 8000 pilots whose careers were just as important as yours--as reflected in the arbitration.

Crybabies? Nope. Like I said before, it's ancient history and was accepted a long time ago. Calling you out on unadulterated BS does not = crying about the contract or SLI. It's about accuracy. You've shown you have none. Quit spewing BS about how 10+% loss of relative seniority = a windfall and I'll shut up. Deal?

Then stop bitching about it anonymously on an anonymous web board. Go over to the DALPA board, show yourself, and REALLY get hammered by people a lot smarter than me. You got a great deal, IMO. You got better than relative seniority, a large pay increase, immediate access to a lot more higher paying jets, better bases closer to your homes, and unprecedented allowance for future retirements while keeping your access to all of Delta's retirements.

Windfall your ass. More like a slip & fall. You're clueless. Have fun in your Shiny Jet!

Indeed a windfall. Compared to the AAA/AWA arbitration, you got a windfall. Mergers are not fun, but you did fine. The trouble is that you don't realize it via tunnel vision about the mythical 10%, the good ole days of the dinosaur DC-9, our "SJS"--which really means very lucrative jets with good QOL. They are known as widebodies, which are not "shiny BTW" which more than doubled your fleet, which pay more, fly to great destinations, which provide for better QOL (eq more days off) which--again unprecedented--you gained immediate access to. That's the difference between our groups. WE are big picture. You focus on some bogus fiction 10% and BS phrases like SJS which have no meaning. NONE. Grow up Peter Pan. It's over. Red Tail bitching brought me into the thread. You've been called out. You got a good deal. It's undisputed.

 

[regionalcap]

We are one group now. Make the best of it and enjoy it. Life is too short!!

 

[General Lee]

We are one group now. Make the best of it and enjoy it. Life is too short!!

If you are junior now, you are probably going to fly a narrowbody, which is something that probably should have happened anyway. If you started on a widebody, you hit the jackpot, but that may not last. In the end though, seniority will rule, and if you are senior, you will enjoy it more. If you are in the bottom 500 or so, you might have to fly the DC9. There may be a 757/767 "grab" in the next few bids, but that will take a lot of people out of their comfort zone and give them a different commute that may or may not work for them and their families. As the senior NWA guys start to leave in a few years, a lot will even out and things will take off from there as 400-500 guys start to leave for retirement per year.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Noserider76]

Guys, unless we'd like to turn this place into US Airways I'd say we're much better off thinking like one group. I've have to fight myself thinking fDL equipment is mine, how pissed I'll be if I'm bumped down or out of the base I live in etc., but I don't have any control over what the company does and it's unproductive. There's going to be a sh*tstorm next year depending how the company handles the moves. I hope they do it with the least impact possible through minimal displacements but they might not. It's our choice how we handle it. We can make this place a nightmare or we can move on, work together to maximize our $$ and QOL, and enjoy what really matters.

 

[LandGreen]

Guys, unless we'd like to turn this place into US Airways I'd say we're much better off thinking like one group. I've have to fight myself thinking fDL equipment is mine, how pissed I'll be if I'm bumped down or out of the base I live in etc., but I don't have any control over what the company does and it's unproductive. There's going to be a sh*tstorm next year depending how the company handles the moves. I hope they do it with the least impact possible through minimal displacements but they might not. It's our choice how we handle it. We can make this place a nightmare or we can move on, work together to maximize our $$ and QOL, and enjoy what really matters.

I had a long layover in LA recently. A GREAT group of NWA guys at the Happy Hour. Although we are all apprehensive about the future, I believe the vast majority of DAL S and DAL N are good people and will be fun to work with.

 

[DTW320]

Wow. I obviously struck a nerve judging by the War & Peace dissertations given in the last 24 hours since I stopped by. Hadn't been here much at all in the last 6 months or so....glad (sad) to see that you guys are still on patrol like an 80 year old Japanese soldier still in the jungles of Guam or Saipan (DAL-S pilots please consult Google Earth now).

Let's see, nwaredtail hit most of the major rebuttal points, thanks! Licorice, you're obviously smarter than and a bit less offensive than PuffDaddy (maybe you're one of those on the DALPA board...them fellers be s-m-a-r-t!!) but you lose me in your numbers. Redtail is correct. Relative seniority is expressed as a % of the entire list. Within 24 hours of the list coming out one of our guys had an app on his website that you input your number to and it spit out a chart showing your number and % position on the entire list for every year until age 65. From what we've seen of Delta Technology so far, DAL should hire him at triple his pilot pay rate. According to them "smart DAL-S guys" over on the DALPA boards, TravelNet sucks BTW. Their words. His website is the same one that emails you open trips in your category the second they hit the board and lists you on a jumpseat unattended while you're playing golf and DAL-S guys are queing up on the phone. Anyway, his lists and others clearly show that the average DAL-N pilot loses around 10 % relative seniority on the combined list, compared to the starting % at DCC, inside of 10 years. Now according to Pdiddy that doesn't matter because we could be extict tomorrow, which begs the question: if he really believes that, how sad is it that he is spending what could be his last day blathering away on Flight Info? Anyway, licorice, you should be able to understand that right? If a NWA guy was going to retire at 5% from the top of the list and now will retire at 15% down the list it = some big differences. PDiddy wants us to believe that it is purely a function of a new, bigger pilot group due to merger. That misses the point completely. Noone would say a word if it was as simply as that due to there being more pilots. The growth of the relative seniority disparity over the next 8 - 10 years, to the detriment of the NWA pilot and the GAIN of the DAL pilot, indicates one thing: DAL-S pilots capture and directly benefit from a large portion of the NWA retirements. That's thanks to the arbitrators. Like I've said many times, it is what it is and it's over. No one is "crying" about THAT. Find a post by me in the last 6 months complaining about the SLI. I'm responding to the 100% Grade A BS statement that NWA pilots received a "windfall" even though the numbers clearly show that the attrition on the NWA side mainly benefits the pre-merger DAL pilots....you know, the ones that think they got a screw job in the merger.

I agree that there are more 757/767 available to NWA guys due to the merger. I'll preface the next statement by saying that ALL of our payrates SUCK compared to what we ALL made a few years ago. But the 757/767/76ER that you guys gush about, pay a ridiculously small premium over the narrowbody domestic categories. That's where the argument that NWA guys have ALL these wonderful new WIDEBODIES to take advantage of falls flat for me. There is NO defensible reason at all for the huge disparity between 76ER pay and 767-400/A330 pay and we should have sent them back to the table over THAT precisely BECAUSE that 75/76ER category is so big! The 767ER International Widebody StratoCruiser pays a whopping 4% more than a 124 seat 737-700 and 8% more than a A319 (another 124 seat Delta airplane that somehow pays 4% less than a 73-700....another windfall for us NWA guys right?) Meanwhile, a 767-400/A330 pays 13% more than a 767ER. WTF? If all the additional 757's and 767's that NWA guys now have "access" to (there have to be vacancies first....noone gets bumped....something I have to point out on almost every DL jumpseat I ride when I'm told that the NWA guys are going to "take our widebody positions") paid the same as the 330/765 or even 8 or 9% more than the 737 then I would agre that it is a real benefit for NWA pilots to have more widebody seats! Who cares where it flies! That does not = QOL! I'll go on vacation to one of those places for QOL (just wrapping up over 30 days off myself from vacation awarded under those "horrendous" NWA work rules).

I'll agree with Puffy that the problem with over 80 premium pay is that it encourages you to overwork, but having said that, the whole "grand scheme" more money thing is bogus too. I have a 747-400 FO friend who says that he made more W2 last year than his DAL 76ER Captain buddy. The ER Cap pointed it out to him over beers. I'll look forward to your freaking out and going ballistic shooting that one down over the next 10 pages. While we're at it, yes NWA pilots got a bigger hourly rate raise than DAL pilots since we had to be brought to parity. But I'm a little sick of hearing that DAL pilots got nothing out of this. You guys got raises and contract improvements too and furthermore whatever ANY of us got was not due to the generosity of DALPA..it was due to the fact that Delta Air Lines, Inc. needed this merger to happen and knew they had to "satisfy" the pilot group.

One last thing that can't go unnoticed...we got a windfall compared to the AAA/AWA arbitration? You CAN'T be serious! That's like saying that if my ski-boat motor goes out on me on Lake Lanier I got a windfall compared to those bastards on the Titanic! Please at least ATTEMPT to stay within reasonably comparable examples. Thanks! Now I'll check back on you children soon.....I KNOW you'll still be here. War & PeaceOUT.