Anderson to align capacity with demand

[General Lee]

Wanna bet it is a combined bid that covers both groups?

I think there will be a lot less pain in letting groups cross bid now for post SOC training. For those that cry at the pain of impending DAL-N getting into DAL acft now, it's either one 1 or 2 bids away regardless, and if we do a separate now displacement bid we will have far more unfrozen DAL-N pilots to exercise their seniority later.

Hate to bring this ugly bit of info, but right now with S new hires in the 76ER in JFK, DAL could actually furlough right off of the the ER, where the bulk of the cuts seem to be. Open up cross bidding now and those pilots could displace into a DC9 instead of CPZ.

I was told that our guys would say NO to that. We are not taking the hit for the 742s coming down. A lot less pain? The SLI stated anything that leaves prior to SOC (even by 1 day) affects that side. No way. That is the way it goes. Maybe more of the North pilots will just retire rather than leaving ANC for DTW. That is the idea. Nobody in our side of the MEC would vote to be bumped down MORE. I know after SOC they could bid something else, but there may be entitlements vs displacements, and that is huge. Displacements bump people out, vs allowing people to trickle in during an entitlement, which is slower due to the fact that you need open spots. That helps both sides who want to keep what they currently have. I am sure the company would LOVE to have what you are suggesting too, but that's not going to happen. You have to do it the long way, and maybe that will factor into some of management's decisions. What you are asking for is a CONCESSION to management. Do you think they will give us E190s for that???? What else do you want to give management to save them money? Will you sign a check for RA and EB too? None of that will help us at all. Sounds like you want to be based somewhere else faster.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I heard we would say NO to, but haven't we heard that before??

 

[General Lee]

I heard we would say NO to, but haven't we heard that before??

The Dalpa guys in the lounge said NO way to that. Why would they want to be bumped down SOONER? Does that make sense to you? "Hey guys, I want to get bumped off my seat sooner, so let's give the company a concession....and more 76 seaters while we are at it....."

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

I was told that our guys would say NO to that. We are not taking the hit for the 742s coming down. A lot less pain? The SLI stated anything that leaves prior to SOC (even by 1 day) affects that side. No way. That is the way it goes. Maybe more of the North pilots will just retire rather than leaving ANC for DTW. That is the idea. Nobody in our side of the MEC would vote to be bumped down MORE. I know after SOC they could bid something else, but there may be entitlements vs displacements, and that is huge. Displacements bump people out, vs allowing people to trickle in during an entitlement, which is slower due to the fact that you need open spots. That helps both sides who want to keep what they currently have. I am sure the company would LOVE to have what you are suggesting too, but that's not going to happen. You have to do it the long way, and maybe that will factor into some of management's decisions. What you are asking for is a CONCESSION to management. Do you think they will give us E190s for that???? What else do you want to give management to save them money? Will you sign a check for RA and EB too? None of that will help us at all. Sounds like you want to be based somewhere else faster.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, even with the 747-200 pull down the DALS side is far more overstaffed than the DALN side. The staffing increase coming to the North side will help absorb alot of the freighter pull down. displacements are happening and coming from both sides regardless as they realign everything.

 

[Fly4hire]

The Dalpa guys in the lounge said NO way to that. Why would they want to be bumped down SOONER? Does that make sense to you? "Hey guys, I want to get bumped off my seat sooner, so let's give the company a concession....and more 76 seaters while we are at it....."

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,

I know it seems counter intuitive, but you might be bumped less. Now that there is talk of a substantial MD bid on the south side, perhaps the idea of spreading the pain out through the system instead of focused on each side may result in less disruption.

I understand the argument on displacements vs. awards, however if an early combined bid also included some base realignment awards we might do a whole lot less musical chairs. Don't forget there are no freezes on any displacements so if we absorb the 742 displacements it's just that many more north pilots open to bid on any future positions. But then again there are so many senior north pilots on NB equipment as it is, they'll probably take any all the WB slots as soon as there are awards any ways.

Between the PRIP which is primarily of interest to senior north pilots, and the implementation of BP5 I think the actual number of displacements will be relatively minor which would negate the arguement for an early bid.

Personally I think you guys have more to worry about right now than we do.

 

[Noserider76]

The smart way to move equipment would be to avoid displacements to the max extent possible. Add awards to categories they want increased and allow categories they want to shrink to automatically do it through not backfilling. No one should be displaced from a base or equipment that is still in the system. The only displacements should come from retiring equipment and closing categories which I would hope will be minimal.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The smart way to move equipment would be to avoid displacements to the max extent possible. Add awards to categories they want increased and allow categories they want to shrink to automatically do it through not backfilling. No one should be displaced from a base or equipment that is still in the system. The only displacements should come from retiring equipment and closing categories which I would hope will be minimal.

That works when you are growing the wide bodies like they did in 07 and 08. It does not work to well when you are trying to shrink the WB flying and add a little to the narrow body fleet. Not many willingly bid down.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I was told that our guys would say NO to that. We are not taking the hit for the 742s coming down. A lot less pain? The SLI stated anything that leaves prior to SOC (even by 1 day) affects that side. No way. That is the way it goes. Maybe more of the North pilots will just retire rather than leaving ANC for DTW. That is the idea. Nobody in our side of the MEC would vote to be bumped down MORE. I know after SOC they could bid something else, but there may be entitlements vs displacements, and that is huge. Displacements bump people out, vs allowing people to trickle in during an entitlement, which is slower due to the fact that you need open spots. That helps both sides who want to keep what they currently have. I am sure the company would LOVE to have what you are suggesting too, but that's not going to happen. You have to do it the long way, and maybe that will factor into some of management's decisions. What you are asking for is a CONCESSION to management. Do you think they will give us E190s for that???? What else do you want to give management to save them money? Will you sign a check for RA and EB too? None of that will help us at all. Sounds like you want to be based somewhere else faster.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Why are you such an ass? We are ridiculously overstaffed on both sides. In two and a half years, the Northwest retirements start in full force. I am talking about the guys that are going to hit 65 and be forced to retire. This will keep the furloughs to a minimum. You Delta south guys are going to benefit tremendously. You want to basically take everything good the north has to offer with none of the bad. I am not even sure the 747-200's would be gone this soon if it wasn't for SOC. Stop thinking so much about yourself. You are senior enough that your job is safe. We need to stop screwing our fellow pilots over for our own good. That means stop scoping out the bottom of the list for small raises for the top, stop suing the junior pilots for targeting after they saved your pension (a north sore subject), etc. I'm sick and tired of this entitlement attitude. Major guys blame the regionals, but the major guys need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

 

[General Lee]

General, even with the 747-200 pull down the DALS side is far more overstaffed than the DALN side. The staffing increase coming to the North side will help absorb alot of the freighter pull down. displacements are happening and coming from both sides regardless as they realign everything.

Yes, we are more overstaffed, although a lot of the same cuts we are getting this fall (route wise) will be re-added in March of next year. That is how Delta works--always has. We are a Spring and Summer airline. We always cut way back in the Fall (do most of the training then), and then add flights back in the Spring. A furlough is cost efficient if a pilot is out 2 years. With similar block hours, we will need about the same amount of pilots. I know that could change, but so far it has not.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Why are you such an ass? We are ridiculously overstaffed on both sides. In two and a half years, the Northwest retirements start in full force. I am talking about the guys that are going to hit 65 and be forced to retire. This will keep the furloughs to a minimum. You Delta south guys are going to benefit tremendously. You want to basically take everything good the north has to offer with none of the bad. I am not even sure the 747-200's would be gone this soon if it wasn't for SOC. Stop thinking so much about yourself. You are senior enough that your job is safe. We need to stop screwing our fellow pilots over for our own good. That means stop scoping out the bottom of the list for small raises for the top, stop suing the junior pilots for targeting after they saved your pension (a north sore subject), etc. I'm sick and tired of this entitlement attitude. Major guys blame the regionals, but the major guys need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

I am not trying to be an azz, but we don't give concessions to the company for nothing. I don't want anyone furloughed, and I don't think we will have any. We will have more SILs and lower ALVs, and hopefully that will do it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

GL,

I know it seems counter intuitive, but you might be bumped less. Now that there is talk of a substantial MD bid on the south side, perhaps the idea of spreading the pain out through the system instead of focused on each side may result in less disruption.

I understand the argument on displacements vs. awards, however if an early combined bid also included some base realignment awards we might do a whole lot less musical chairs. Don't forget there are no freezes on any displacements so if we absorb the 742 displacements it's just that many more north pilots open to bid on any future positions. But then again there are so many senior north pilots on NB equipment as it is, they'll probably take any all the WB slots as soon as there are awards any ways.

Between the PRIP which is primarily of interest to senior north pilots, and the implementation of BP5 I think the actual number of displacements will be relatively minor which would negate the arguement for an early bid.

Personally I think you guys have more to worry about right now than we do.

Again, we are adding most of the flights back in March that we are cutting in the Fall. Doing anything pre-SOC for the company is a concession, and we won't get anything for it. Ed and Richard may get bigger bonuses, though. If they are forced to train a lot of people and that is expensive, maybe they will change their minds and do something productive, like routing trips through hubs instead of displacing people. That may be cheaper. We can suggest it, though. No concessions for NOTHING.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Sinca3]

General, even with the 747-200 pull down the DALS side is far more overstaffed than the DALN side. The staffing increase coming to the North side will help absorb alot of the freighter pull down. displacements are happening and coming from both sides regardless as they realign everything.

I don't have the numbers but I'm willing to bet you that DAL-N is or will be just as or more overstaffed then DAL-S. 747-200 pilots and all of your instructor pilots are looking for equipment to fly!
I'd venture to guess that's roughly 450 pilots.....

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I don't have the numbers but I'm willing to bet you that DAL-N is or will be just as or more overstaffed then DAL-S. 747-200 pilots and all of your instructor pilots are looking for equipment to fly!
I'd venture to guess that's roughly 450 pilots.....

They have to convert to our workrules, though. That will mitigate at least a certain amount of those guys.

 

[N2264J]

Again, we are adding most of the flights back in March that we are cutting in the Fall.

Management can't see beyond the end of the next quarter let alone what they're going to do a year from now.

Whoever you and acl65pilot are talking to in bid production have no idea which way the economy is going to break.

 

[Redmeat]

Management can't see beyond the end of the next quarter let alone what they're going to do a year from now.

Whoever you and acl65pilot are talking to in bid production have no idea which way the economy is going to break.

Ding Ding Ding...We have a winner folks!

Unfortunately not all of us have access to that DAL-S Kool-Aid they are serving up down there.

Evidently that is some strong stuff!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Management can't see beyond the end of the next quarter let alone what they're going to do a year from now.

Whoever you and acl65pilot are talking to in bid production have no idea which way the economy is going to break.

I think that is the point of my pessimisim. I am a half full guy, but I am not bullish on any of this.

They have a plan for next year and it is showing +450 for staffing already for Spring 2010. That is not good at all.

I do not see us keeping our planned capacity for summer 2010 anywhere near where the plan is. Why? Because you cannot add that many seats and charge much for them. We need to get pricing power back before we even talk about adding seats.

The guys making the plan have clearly stated that long term forecasting is not worth much these days. Why? People are not buying tickets three to six months in advance. More like a week to two. Three tops. It means that all of these computer models that we have do not tell us jack. It is a best guess, I assure you. I am not trying to diminish that point.

DAL wants to keep staffing positioned to move when the economy turns. Many people think late 2010 at the earliest. I personally think by what I am seeing it might be some time in mid to late 2011 before we really see any justifiable movement in the GDP and or unemployment rate.

Yes, I am pessimistic. Plan accordingly. (Planes are full but that does not mean jack. We just readjusted our forecast to 0-2% margin before one time items. To me that means 200 million plus in losses this quarter!)

 

[Heavy Set]

Ding Ding Ding...We have a winner folks!

Unfortunately not all of us have access to that DAL-S Kool-Aid they are serving up down there.

Evidently that is some strong stuff!

The article stating the discontinued flights also had reinstatement days. A lot of them were March 27th, FWIW.

 

[nwaredtail]

I don't have the numbers but I'm willing to bet you that DAL-N is or will be just as or more overstaffed then DAL-S. 747-200 pilots and all of your instructor pilots are looking for equipment to fly!
I'd venture to guess that's roughly 450 pilots.....

Not that it matters, from "cq" last week, 200 on the north side, 800-1000 on the south side, no furloughs, too much $$$$..

Of course written in Jello

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Not that it matters, from "cq" last week, 200 on the north side, 800-1000 on the south side, no furloughs, too much $$$$..

Of course written in Jello

That is what they say. I just cannot believe that when we are 1200+ pilots fat, we are not going to adjust staffing!
What this before or after Thursday's announcement??????

<====looking for a very fat category to take the winter off and lay on the beach!

 

[Voice Of Reason]

That is what they say. I just cannot believe that when we are 1200+ pilots fat, we are not going to adjust staffing!
What this before or after Thursday's announcement??????

<====looking for a very fat category to take the winter off and lay on the beach!

Well, maybe if you keep putting it out there and posting it enough 24/7 as you have been dedicated to doing, they'll determine that the pilots are already resigned to that happening and won't put up a fight.

Perhaps your efforts would be better spent working for your union to prevent this, rather than trying to manipulate public perception and instill Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt on public message boards ala Ford & Harrison board regulars. (They're the only ones with the time to post all day and all night every day to accomplish this goal...NO line pilot currently employed ANYWHERE in June ALREADY has a schedule THAT clear)