Anderson to align capacity with demand

[PuffDriver]

Nu, FDJ2,

There are a couple of ways this can play out. Let's not forget that DAL is controlling DAL-N staffing now. They want minimal movement until post-SOC and avoid multiple training cycles per pilot when they can do one. They also need to get pilots into equipment and position ASAP after SOC to realize merger synergies.

The most desirable option would be to get enough PRIPS where there is no need to mess with the formula until after SOC. Barring that, If they were to determine (they know already) the base and equipment shuffles are going to be, they could open an AE for those positions now, and cross bid for post SOC training. No DAL-S pilots get bumped as a result of the -200 we just move the process up for openings that DAL-N pilots could bid post SOC. It will certainly mitigate inevitable DAL-S surpluses as a result of the Atlantic draw down as well. As ~~~^~~~ said, let's just get it over with.

If DALPA does not want to play ball, that leaves the Co. with the option of actually displacing those remaining -200 pilots and all the events it will generate. But since they are essentially playing against themselves, why bother? They could simply over staff a couple of categories with pilots on paper, awaiting training, and then let them wait until the first position bid after SOC and then train them. It would be money well spent over flooding the both school houses with unnecessary training cycles.

What I do not envision is two separate large displacement bids, to churn the lists of both groups, only to do it again, just to postpone the inevitable because some think the "stars upon thars" of the 767 are shinier than the ones on the 747-200.

Do any of you guys really think the timing of the 767 reductions are unrelated to the freighter closing? Something tells me that when you guys might be looking at considerably more displacements than DAL-N an early position bid tied with base realignments might start looking a little more attractive.......

You are so full of it. The NWA guys made out like bandits on this list. Don't piss on us and tell us it's raining. What's done is done, but don't act like you got a raw deal from lack of attrition. You got UNPRECEDENTED pull and plug to account for attrition which was going away anyway. EVERYBODY retires. EVERYBODY. Delta and NWA guys will retire. It is an equal. A non-game changer. Add to that that there were NO fences, and the only guys getting screwed are from the Delta side, which did not get protected in the spots that we currently hold. Go figure. You ask for fences, we ask for fences. The middle ground? No fences--save a handful of widebodies.

You got a good deal. Just shut up and take it.

 

[nwaredtail]

You are so full of it. The NWA guys made out like bandits on this list. Don't piss on us and tell us it's raining. What's done is done, but don't act like you got a raw deal from lack of attrition. You got UNPRECEDENTED pull and plug to account for attrition which was going away anyway. EVERYBODY retires. EVERYBODY. Delta and NWA guys will retire. It is an equal. A non-game changer. Add to that that there were NO fences, and the only guys getting screwed are from the Delta side, which did not get protected in the spots that we currently hold. Go figure. You ask for fences, we ask for fences. The middle ground? No fences--save a handful of widebodies.

You got a good deal. Just shut up and take it.

If anyone had taken the time to analyze the "pull and plug", they would realize that it did almost nothing for 70% of the NWA list. It took the OLDEST 275ish pilots at NWA (not most senior) and rearranged them. It was a smoke and mirrors game to appease the NWA folks, which it didn't.

So I guess the 10% seniority hit I take in the next 5-10 years and the 10% you gain is just something I should "get over". OK, but don't bitch when every open WB seat is bid by the NWA guys. One group now right?

BTW, I heard almost no displacements on the NWA side now pre-SOC. Should make the first AE fun huh?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

deleted. Not worth it

 

[PuffDriver]

So I guess the 10% seniority hit I take in the next 5-10 years and the 10% you gain is just something I should "get over". OK, but don't bitch when every open WB seat is bid by the NWA guys. One group now right?

Exactly right. The pull and plug was NOT smoke and mirrors. You guys like to exaggerate the effect of your retirements, but the facts are the facts. All people retire, whether now or later. Getting ANY credit for them was a step out into the wild blue for a mediator. Akin to insanity. Regardless, the lack of any kind of fence for non-premium, when both sides asked for it, was wildly in favor of NWA pilots--then throw in the lack of complete relative seniority as yet another bone to NWA.

AEs are different than displacements. If we don't replace flying, the picture changes, if we grow wildly, the picture changes. The picture will change a lot between a displacements and entitlements. Thus, you do not know what that next entitlement will look like. What is becoming more and more apparent is something the Delta pilots already knew--NWA pilots will flock to those puny little POS 767s left and right in those premium wide body bases.

As I said, it's a good deal for you. you shouldn't pass up the golden opportunity to keep your mouth shut about it. You are looking like a fool.

 

[NuGuy]

If anyone had taken the time to analyze the "pull and plug", they would realize that it did almost nothing for 70% of the NWA list. It took the OLDEST 275ish pilots at NWA (not most senior) and rearranged them. It was a smoke and mirrors game to appease the NWA folks, which it didn't.

So I guess the 10% seniority hit I take in the next 5-10 years and the 10% you gain is just something I should "get over". OK, but don't bitch when every open WB seat is bid by the NWA guys. One group now right?

BTW, I heard almost no displacements on the NWA side now pre-SOC. Should make the first AE fun huh?

Heyas RT,

Again, pretty close to the mark. The "pull outs" were woefully inadequate to cover even the short term retirements, let alone those a few years out.

175 fNWA pilots have retired JUST since the SLI was released. That's right, over half the pilots that were supposed to leave in the next FIVE years are already gone. And guess what? The vast majority of them were at 60, exactly as predicted by the NWA side. The PERP will probably add another 100 to that list. To even get within one order of magnitude in error, the arbitrators would have needed to double the number of pull outs.

Like you, I take a double digit hit in my relative seniority. Seats that I would have held for years before retirement at 60 are now out of reach even if I go to 65.

The DAL guys hue and cry about what they lost. In reality, they got EXACTLY what they wanted, and are now QQing with buyer's remorse. They might have been better off with the dynamic plan with 5 year base/aircraft fences.

The DAL MEC tried to quell that remorse by saying "well, there isn't going to be any movement, so all of this is moot...everyone will stay where they are", but that doesn't look like that's going to work out so well.

The night the SLI was released, it was VERY apparent to anyone who could read that there was exactly one avenue to make up what fNWA guys lost, and that was bid up now to the best paying seat you can hold, or at least increase your QoL, because moving up down the road is out of the question. No one should be surprised that fNWA guys will do what they can to mitigate the damage.

I will agree that the NWA guys didn't get stomped quite as hard as the Western or PanAm guys, but maybe that's why some of the DAL guys are pissed...someone actually put up a fight and got a couple of good jabs in.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Heyas RT,

Again, pretty close to the mark. The "pull outs" were woefully inadequate to cover even the short term retirements, let alone those a few years out.

175 fNWA pilots have retired JUST since the SLI was released. That's right, over half the pilots that were supposed to leave in the next FIVE years are already gone. And guess what? The vast majority of them were at 60, exactly as predicted by the NWA side. The PERP will probably add another 100 to that list. To even get within one order of magnitude in error, the arbitrators would have needed to double the number of pull outs.

Like you, I take a double digit hit in my relative seniority. Seats that I would have held for years before retirement at 60 are now out of reach even if I go to 65.

The DAL guys hue and cry about what they lost. In reality, they got EXACTLY what they wanted, and are now QQing with buyer's remorse. They might have been better off with the dynamic plan with 5 year base/aircraft fences.

The DAL MEC tried to quell that remorse by saying "well, there isn't going to be any movement, so all of this is moot...everyone will stay where they are", but that doesn't look like that's going to work out so well.

The night the SLI was released, it was VERY apparent to anyone who could read that there was exactly one avenue to make up what fNWA guys lost, and that was bid up now to the best paying seat you can hold, or at least increase your QoL, because moving up down the road is out of the question. No one should be surprised that fNWA guys will do what they can to mitigate the damage.

I will agree that the NWA guys didn't get stomped quite as hard as the Western or PanAm guys, but maybe that's why some of the DAL guys are pissed...someone actually put up a fight and got a couple of good jabs in.

Nu

When it comes down to it, seniority will prevail. Some people "hit the jackpot" when they went straight to the 767 as newhires. In most cases, that just doesn't happen unless your airline only has those airplanes. (757s and 767s at North American Airlines for example) Guys like Fins may have to bite the bullet and go to a narrowbody, like everyone else did when they originally started. If you are in the bottom 500 total, you may have to go to the DC9. Hey, at least there won't be any FE seats left, which means you get a window seat. Eventually the NWA guys will start to retire en mass, and things will move again, including hiring maybe. But, the rest of us have gone through ups and downs, (like after 9-11) and it will probably happen again.

As far as the Pan Am guys and Western guys getting stomped, I don't think that is the case. Their airlines were going away, and that is not the case with NWA. The Pan Am guys were lucky to come over with any seniority, and the Western guys mostly stayed out West, where they wanted to be. Some of them were furloughed, but are all now fairly senior 767 captains. The NWA merger will provide some new routes and new bases with some opportunity for Delta South guys. Maybe you don't want to go to MSP or DTW, but the mass exodus out of Detroit may allow some opportunity in DTW for some, even though it might include a commute. That 757 seat you lost in JFK or ATL may be waiting for you in DTW, or a shiny new A319.

Again, seniority will rule, and after SOC there may be a big shuffle. If you are junior, expect to be treated like it. Eventually, you will be senior, and your 767 will be waiting for you. All I know is that I like being senior.....maybe I will try the A330 if they put it in ATL......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

If anyone had taken the time to analyze the "pull and plug", they would realize that it did almost nothing for 70% of the NWA list. It took the OLDEST 275ish pilots at NWA (not most senior) and rearranged them. It was a smoke and mirrors game to appease the NWA folks, which it didn't.

So I guess the 10% seniority hit I take in the next 5-10 years and the 10% you gain is just something I should "get over". OK, but don't bitch when every open WB seat is bid by the NWA guys. One group now right?

BTW, I heard almost no displacements on the NWA side now pre-SOC. Should make the first AE fun huh?

Puffdriver is right. If there are lots of displacements, the AE won't be as great for you guys since reinstatements come before entitlements. You need open spots for entitlements. And, the company would rather have entitlements since they are cheaper than displacements which allow paid moves.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

A/C 131 (B-767-300 "domestic") is coming out of storage this weekend. A bit of good news.

 

[NuGuy]

Puffdriver is right. If there are lots of displacements, the AE won't be as great for you guys since reinstatements come before entitlements. You need open spots for entitlements. And, the company would rather have entitlements since they are cheaper than displacements which allow paid moves.


Bye Bye--General Lee

But only for 180 days, which the bulk of this downturn will most certainly be.

Too bad you guys didn't get unlimted recall rights in the JPWA...

Nu

 

[General Lee]

But only for 180 days, which the bulk of this downturn will most certainly be.

Too bad you guys didn't get unlimted recall rights in the JPWA...

Nu

There should be 4 or 5 bids total, which could involve some reinstatements within 180 days. One thing that was not included in the joint contract was the monthly APA, which a lot of your senior 757 drivers used to commute between different bases depending on what time of the year it was. Maybe MSP for the Winter to do Asia stuff, and DTW for the Summer to do more Europe. Well, that won't happen anymore, forcing them to choose a base, or move to one. If they live in FLA and want to fly out of ATL, watch out for that jumpseat---it is already tough to get it with everyone pouncing on the phone at the 4 day deadline going to work. But hey, it is just easier to move to ATL and fly from here. Come join me on the North side! And, see me perform every Thursday night at the Laugh Barn in Marietta. Remember to tip the waitresses!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[licorice]

But only for 180 days, which the bulk of this downturn will most certainly be.

Too bad you guys didn't get unlimted recall rights in the JPWA...

Nu

This is really quite comical, your hypocrisy is palpable...meaning it is so thick you can squeeze it between your fingers like silly putty....only a short year ago you were decrying the inadequacies of the DAL 767/757 categories/bases and how great it was at NWA, what with all the "premium" flying horsesh!t that in actuality paid dogsh!t ....and how can we forget grown men crying over 747s in the SLI video opener. And now...suddenly you actually like the 767 and it's bases?.....suddenly it's going to be "your" airplane, you're going to "take" it from us because of an SLI that didn't go your way?

...But if the SLI had gone your way, -DOH but, lets say, with the same fences we have now, none of the hundreds of disgruntled DC9 and A320 drivers in the frozen hell-holes of the north -dreaming of sudden widebody entitlement, sunshine and glory....would be lacing up their track shoes for the sprint south and west...yeah right! Must have been a great airline you worked for when all you can do is constantly drool about what the other airline brought to the table....for all you salivating droolers up north of the ilk of nuguy, -chests pumped up and burning with pride in their airline roots... don't forget your bibs, -you don't want to mess up those new uniforms with slobber.

Now, on a less serious note, Delta brings approx. 100 unfenced widebodies to the party...compared to what? 30 or so from NW? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate which group makes out in that deal....and I'll say it..(as I try to stifle myself)...good for you!!!...it's called a "fair and equitable seniority list". For all you junior NW types with seniority equivalent to DAL 2000, 2001, 2007 hires naively thinking you'll be a shoe-in for a DAL south international WB position....well you're naive. With the economic downturn/capacity cutbacks/displacements (800 in the south alone according to your sincere ambassador of good will...nuguy...oh yeah but no displacements in the north...even with a whole category of WB disappearing...amazing!) the seniority/positions will be rationalized... much more senior.... for every 5 NWs bidding for a south position, there will be 7 DALs of equal seniority bidding the same. No doubt many of you more senior commuters flying NBs in the north will make it to WBs in the south with an easier commute, but not everybody who thinks they can hold that now will get that award.

 

[DTW320]

Heyas RT,

Again, pretty close to the mark. The "pull outs" were woefully inadequate to cover even the short term retirements, let alone those a few years out.

175 fNWA pilots have retired JUST since the SLI was released. That's right, over half the pilots that were supposed to leave in the next FIVE years are already gone. And guess what? The vast majority of them were at 60, exactly as predicted by the NWA side. The PERP will probably add another 100 to that list. To even get within one order of magnitude in error, the arbitrators would have needed to double the number of pull outs.

Like you, I take a double digit hit in my relative seniority. Seats that I would have held for years before retirement at 60 are now out of reach even if I go to 65.

The DAL guys hue and cry about what they lost. In reality, they got EXACTLY what they wanted, and are now QQing with buyer's remorse. They might have been better off with the dynamic plan with 5 year base/aircraft fences.

The DAL MEC tried to quell that remorse by saying "well, there isn't going to be any movement, so all of this is moot...everyone will stay where they are", but that doesn't look like that's going to work out so well.

The night the SLI was released, it was VERY apparent to anyone who could read that there was exactly one avenue to make up what fNWA guys lost, and that was bid up now to the best paying seat you can hold, or at least increase your QoL, because moving up down the road is out of the question. No one should be surprised that fNWA guys will do what they can to mitigate the damage.

I will agree that the NWA guys didn't get stomped quite as hard as the Western or PanAm guys, but maybe that's why some of the DAL guys are pissed...someone actually put up a fight and got a couple of good jabs in.

Nu

EXACTLY right NU. You nailed it.

ALL that matters is seniority. Notice how every argument ends up with how lucky NWA guys will be to be on a DAL widebody and IGNORES the double digit loss of relative seniority that the NWA guy will enjoy around 8 years down the road? Hey, the list is ancient news and most moved on long ago....but I'll respond when told that a double digit loss of relative seniority in a few years is a "windfall" or is "made up for" by gaining 2% relative the day the list was published or how the pull and plug. Acute Myopia....too bad that's not medically disqualifying.

 

[DTW320]

Now, on a less serious note, Delta brings approx. 100 unfenced widebodies to the party...compared to what? 30 or so from NW? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate which group makes out in that deal....and I'll say it..(as I try to stifle myself)...good for you!!!...it's called a "fair and equitable seniority list". For all you junior NW types with seniority equivalent to DAL 2000, 2001, 2007 hires naively thinking you'll be a shoe-in for a DAL south international WB position....well you're naive. With the economic downturn/capacity cutbacks/displacements (800 in the south alone according to your sincere ambassador of good will...nuguy...oh yeah but no displacements in the north...even with a whole category of WB disappearing...amazing!) the seniority/positions will be rationalized... much more senior.... for every 5 NWs bidding for a south position, there will be 7 DALs of equal seniority bidding the same. No doubt many of you more senior commuters flying NBs in the north will make it to WBs in the south with an easier commute, but not everybody who thinks they can hold that now will get that award.

This PERFECTLY embodies the thought process of these guys: The ONLY thing that matters is that you will get to fly a big shiny DAL airplane. Your place on the seniority list now and DEFINITELY in the future on that big shiny DAL airplane shouldn't matter one bit to you. CLASSIC! SJS is alive and well at DAL-S

 

[PuffDriver]

This PERFECTLY embodies the thought process of these guys: The ONLY thing that matters is that you will get to fly a big shiny DAL airplane. Your place on the seniority list now and DEFINITELY in the future on that big shiny DAL airplane shouldn't matter one bit to you. CLASSIC! SJS is alive and well at DAL-S

Blah, blah, blah. The facts are the facts. Your seniority moves up. Period. In 8 years, there could be another mandatory retirement change. NWA could have gone out of business, so could have Delta. There could be another merger. In 20 years you catch right back up. We can pick an arbitrary number of years ad nauseam. What is NOW is that NWA pilots have access to well over twice the widebody flying that they had via lack of fences. Big shiny airplane nothing. In 8 years man may be extinct. SJS=more dollars.

So stuff it. Your arguments are circular and illogical.

 

[propdog]

Damn people....give it rest. Seniority list have been awarded. Everybody plz bid what they want. Quit bitc!ing and complaining.