Anderson to align capacity with demand

[ACL65PILOT]

Ohh, You GOT ME!

-Your cutting wit! Your gifted prose! Your almost Shakespearian mastery of language!!! What a beautiful masterwork of insult!
-I am a "DICK!"
-WOW!

ACL65 is only here to stroke his own ego and pretend that he has the "inside line" on this or is "in the know" on that. Sad-really, but believe what you wish.

Have you ever heard of "insider trading?" Go look it up, and you will see that about 1/2 of the things ACL claims to have knowledge of fall into this category-hence-he is full of crap.

-But I am a "DICK." I bow to your obvious mastery of the skill of the insult.

My gosh. It is not insider trading. Get real. Now if I could give you the date of the Alaska deal, or the date they are going to terminate your ASA contract, that would be insider trading.
Talking about displacements et al, is not insider trading. Talking about staffing levels, which anyone who has access to our crew software that all crews use, and could extrapolate if they so desired, talking about displacements and capacity cuts, that if you went on Delta.com and saw ticket prices and backed up the loads, is not insider trading. Heck our esteemed leaders talk about current and future bookings at the crew lounge visits, they talk about pricing power etc. I dare you to walk in there on the A concourse on a Wed (sometimes Thursday) in your ASA uniform.
You can chalk it up to conjure if you wish. I am still trying to figure out why you are so bitter. There is no way I could go though life with half of your anger.

 

[lineflyer1]

No worries mainline.

You are safe from furloughs. I just heard Delta is going to reduce Comair, ASA, Skywest flying by 20-30 percent and increase domestic mainline flying as necassary to prevent furloughs at mainline.

Let the regionals furlough instead!

 

[Klr2land]

No worries mainline.

You are safe from furloughs. I just heard Delta is going to reduce Comair, ASA, Skywest flying by 20-30 percent and increase domestic mainline flying as necassary to prevent furloughs at mainline.

Let the regionals furlough instead!

You heard wrong.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

This cut was not domestic.

I will agree that there will be 100 less 50 seaters around in the next year though.

 

[Fly4hire]

As I understand it, there will be a displacement bid in Aug. What size is yet to be determined.

Wanna bet it is a combined bid that covers both groups?

I think there will be a lot less pain in letting groups cross bid now for post SOC training. For those that cry at the pain of impending DAL-N getting into DAL acft now, it's either one 1 or 2 bids away regardless, and if we do a separate now displacement bid we will have far more unfrozen DAL-N pilots to exercise their seniority later.

Hate to bring this ugly bit of info, but right now with S new hires in the 76ER in JFK, DAL could actually furlough right off of the the ER, where the bulk of the cuts seem to be. Open up cross bidding now and those pilots could displace into a DC9 instead of CPZ.

 

[Captain X]

So does that mean he's also gonna align prices with cost?

 

[avrodriver]

Hate to bring this ugly bit of info, but right now with S new hires in the 76ER in JFK, DAL could actually furlough right off of the the ER, where the bulk of the cuts seem to be. Open up cross bidding now and those pilots could displace into a DC9 instead of CPZ.

Of the current NYC ER ranks about 130 guys have 07/08 hire dates.

The most junior of those is about 330 from the bottom and the most senior is about 1160 from the bottom of the combined list.

They'd have to furlough quite a few to get to any of the ER guys.

It would make sense to just go ahead and displace some of these guys now though. They most likely would be displaced after SOC anyway so might as well put them where they are actually needed now if the ER is going to end up overstaffed from these latest reductions.

Personally I think they will keep the lists separate for any downsizing. If you look at the list even if you went in seniority order the amount would be equal from both sides if they did anything more than the bottom 200 or so (the bottom is a little funky with a lot of DAL guys, but it averages out as the number increases).

As much as management as well as ourselves probably can't wait to see where we fall on the big list aircraft/position-wise i think the points being made that there are no firm dates on SOC and everything is subject to government surprises are valid.

They can still get the job done without overcomplicating things with a premature joint bid.

 

[PuffDriver]

-But I am a "DICK." I bow to your obvious mastery of the skill of the insult.

You finally said something that made sense. You're just lucky that I have been ignoring you. Might have to revisit that.

 

[~~~^~~~]

So does that mean he's also gonna align prices with cost?

That's the idea. Problem is that Virgin and some of the others aren't in the business to make a profit. Branson wants to take out United, or Delta, and is subsidizing Virgin America specifically to undermine our domestic revenues in an effort to force US carriers to be less competitive head to head on his transoceanic operations.

 

[jmreii]

That's the idea. Problem is that Virgin and some of the others aren't in the business to make a profit. Branson wants to take out United, or Delta, and is subsidizing Virgin America specifically to undermine our domestic revenues in an effort to force US carriers to be less competitive head to head on his transoceanic operations.

Nothing personal mugsy, just business!

 

[Monster Buck]

Of the current NYC ER ranks about 130 guys have 07/08 hire dates.

The most junior of those is about 330 from the bottom and the most senior is about 1160 from the bottom of the combined list.

They'd have to furlough quite a few to get to any of the ER guys.

It would make sense to just go ahead and displace some of these guys now though. They most likely would be displaced after SOC anyway so might as well put them where they are actually needed now if the ER is going to end up overstaffed from these latest reductions.

Personally I think they will keep the lists separate for any downsizing. If you look at the list even if you went in seniority order the amount would be equal from both sides if they did anything more than the bottom 200 or so (the bottom is a little funky with a lot of DAL guys, but it averages out as the number increases).

As much as management as well as ourselves probably can't wait to see where we fall on the big list aircraft/position-wise i think the points being made that there are no firm dates on SOC and everything is subject to government surprises are valid.

They can still get the job done without overcomplicating things with a premature joint bid.

Our last class was 5/08.

 

[avrodriver]

Our last class was 5/08.

Well we definitely didn't hire 130 guys in one month ever in this last round of hiring and they all certainly didn't go to the ER.

07/08 was meant to be mean 2007/2008 dates....it's too late to edit. Thanks though!

 

[Monster Buck]

Sorry, I didn't get it. It won't be the last time. The month before me they did hire about 100. Those were the good days huh!?

 

[Noserider76]

That's the idea. Problem is that Virgin and some of the others aren't in the business to make a profit. Branson wants to take out United, or Delta, and is subsidizing Virgin America specifically to undermine our domestic revenues in an effort to force US carriers to be less competitive head to head on his transoceanic operations.

I've always wondered why DL doesn't use it's aircraft size to it's advantage and run much bigger planes on high load markets against competitors that can't. Run big, lower CASM airplanes and undercut ticket prices until your competition can't stand it. Cutting seats to try and maintain yields has allowed carriers like this to get a foot hold.

 

[~~~^~~~]

It has been tried, but the concept of losing $10 a passenger and making it up in volume did not work so well when Mullin was proudly professing that Delta's balance sheet would let us run the rest of the industry into insolvency. None the less, there are some markets where Delta will go head to head with a better product and lower CASM.

Also, if you look at the CASM, some of the big jets configured for long haul would get slaughtered by 737-700's. The only real clear cut advantage for that type of competition is the 757-300. Nothing in the Delta fleet (or a LCC's fleet, can match it).

I think at some point Delta will buy a 777-300 to get cost effective wide body equipment on some routes, but that will be off in the future when there is demand for that capacity.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It has been tried, but the concept of losing $10 a passenger and making it up in volume did not work so well when Mullin was proudly professing that Delta's balance sheet would let us run the rest of the industry into insolvency. None the less, there are some markets where Delta will go head to head with a better product and lower CASM.

Also, if you look at the CASM, some of the big jets configured for long haul would get slaughtered by 737-700's. The only real clear cut advantage for that type of competition is the 757-300. Nothing in the Delta fleet (or a LCC's fleet, can match it).

I think at some point Delta will buy a 777-300 to get cost effective wide body equipment on some routes, but that will be off in the future when there is demand for that capacity.

My crystal ball says 18 months (Dec 2010) for that big 777.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Yep.. and say bye-bye to the 747-400s.

 

[Linedriver]

What is the difference between the 777-300 and the ones we have now? Is it range? If it is, why would we get it? We don't top the ones we have off now - or so I've been told.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Go look at the specs of the 777-300. It makes the 777-200 look like a 757 when sitting next to a 767. It is a lot bigger, carriers a lot more, but does not go quite as far as the new 200's we are getting.

 

[Sinca3]

What is the difference between the 777-300 and the ones we have now? Is it range? If it is, why would we get it? We don't top the ones we have off now - or so I've been told.

Seats....300 is stretched for more seats.

 

[General Lee]

Wanna bet it is a combined bid that covers both groups?

I think there will be a lot less pain in letting groups cross bid now for post SOC training. For those that cry at the pain of impending DAL-N getting into DAL acft now, it's either one 1 or 2 bids away regardless, and if we do a separate now displacement bid we will have far more unfrozen DAL-N pilots to exercise their seniority later.

Hate to bring this ugly bit of info, but right now with S new hires in the 76ER in JFK, DAL could actually furlough right off of the the ER, where the bulk of the cuts seem to be. Open up cross bidding now and those pilots could displace into a DC9 instead of CPZ.

I was told that our guys would say NO to that. We are not taking the hit for the 742s coming down. A lot less pain? The SLI stated anything that leaves prior to SOC (even by 1 day) affects that side. No way. That is the way it goes. Maybe more of the North pilots will just retire rather than leaving ANC for DTW. That is the idea. Nobody in our side of the MEC would vote to be bumped down MORE. I know after SOC they could bid something else, but there may be entitlements vs displacements, and that is huge. Displacements bump people out, vs allowing people to trickle in during an entitlement, which is slower due to the fact that you need open spots. That helps both sides who want to keep what they currently have. I am sure the company would LOVE to have what you are suggesting too, but that's not going to happen. You have to do it the long way, and maybe that will factor into some of management's decisions. What you are asking for is a CONCESSION to management. Do you think they will give us E190s for that???? What else do you want to give management to save them money? Will you sign a check for RA and EB too? None of that will help us at all. Sounds like you want to be based somewhere else faster.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I heard we would say NO to, but haven't we heard that before??

 

[General Lee]

I heard we would say NO to, but haven't we heard that before??

The Dalpa guys in the lounge said NO way to that. Why would they want to be bumped down SOONER? Does that make sense to you? "Hey guys, I want to get bumped off my seat sooner, so let's give the company a concession....and more 76 seaters while we are at it....."

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

I was told that our guys would say NO to that. We are not taking the hit for the 742s coming down. A lot less pain? The SLI stated anything that leaves prior to SOC (even by 1 day) affects that side. No way. That is the way it goes. Maybe more of the North pilots will just retire rather than leaving ANC for DTW. That is the idea. Nobody in our side of the MEC would vote to be bumped down MORE. I know after SOC they could bid something else, but there may be entitlements vs displacements, and that is huge. Displacements bump people out, vs allowing people to trickle in during an entitlement, which is slower due to the fact that you need open spots. That helps both sides who want to keep what they currently have. I am sure the company would LOVE to have what you are suggesting too, but that's not going to happen. You have to do it the long way, and maybe that will factor into some of management's decisions. What you are asking for is a CONCESSION to management. Do you think they will give us E190s for that???? What else do you want to give management to save them money? Will you sign a check for RA and EB too? None of that will help us at all. Sounds like you want to be based somewhere else faster.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, even with the 747-200 pull down the DALS side is far more overstaffed than the DALN side. The staffing increase coming to the North side will help absorb alot of the freighter pull down. displacements are happening and coming from both sides regardless as they realign everything.

 

[Fly4hire]

The Dalpa guys in the lounge said NO way to that. Why would they want to be bumped down SOONER? Does that make sense to you? "Hey guys, I want to get bumped off my seat sooner, so let's give the company a concession....and more 76 seaters while we are at it....."

Bye Bye--General Lee

GL,

I know it seems counter intuitive, but you might be bumped less. Now that there is talk of a substantial MD bid on the south side, perhaps the idea of spreading the pain out through the system instead of focused on each side may result in less disruption.

I understand the argument on displacements vs. awards, however if an early combined bid also included some base realignment awards we might do a whole lot less musical chairs. Don't forget there are no freezes on any displacements so if we absorb the 742 displacements it's just that many more north pilots open to bid on any future positions. But then again there are so many senior north pilots on NB equipment as it is, they'll probably take any all the WB slots as soon as there are awards any ways.

Between the PRIP which is primarily of interest to senior north pilots, and the implementation of BP5 I think the actual number of displacements will be relatively minor which would negate the arguement for an early bid.

Personally I think you guys have more to worry about right now than we do.

 

[Noserider76]

The smart way to move equipment would be to avoid displacements to the max extent possible. Add awards to categories they want increased and allow categories they want to shrink to automatically do it through not backfilling. No one should be displaced from a base or equipment that is still in the system. The only displacements should come from retiring equipment and closing categories which I would hope will be minimal.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The smart way to move equipment would be to avoid displacements to the max extent possible. Add awards to categories they want increased and allow categories they want to shrink to automatically do it through not backfilling. No one should be displaced from a base or equipment that is still in the system. The only displacements should come from retiring equipment and closing categories which I would hope will be minimal.

That works when you are growing the wide bodies like they did in 07 and 08. It does not work to well when you are trying to shrink the WB flying and add a little to the narrow body fleet. Not many willingly bid down.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I was told that our guys would say NO to that. We are not taking the hit for the 742s coming down. A lot less pain? The SLI stated anything that leaves prior to SOC (even by 1 day) affects that side. No way. That is the way it goes. Maybe more of the North pilots will just retire rather than leaving ANC for DTW. That is the idea. Nobody in our side of the MEC would vote to be bumped down MORE. I know after SOC they could bid something else, but there may be entitlements vs displacements, and that is huge. Displacements bump people out, vs allowing people to trickle in during an entitlement, which is slower due to the fact that you need open spots. That helps both sides who want to keep what they currently have. I am sure the company would LOVE to have what you are suggesting too, but that's not going to happen. You have to do it the long way, and maybe that will factor into some of management's decisions. What you are asking for is a CONCESSION to management. Do you think they will give us E190s for that???? What else do you want to give management to save them money? Will you sign a check for RA and EB too? None of that will help us at all. Sounds like you want to be based somewhere else faster.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Why are you such an ass? We are ridiculously overstaffed on both sides. In two and a half years, the Northwest retirements start in full force. I am talking about the guys that are going to hit 65 and be forced to retire. This will keep the furloughs to a minimum. You Delta south guys are going to benefit tremendously. You want to basically take everything good the north has to offer with none of the bad. I am not even sure the 747-200's would be gone this soon if it wasn't for SOC. Stop thinking so much about yourself. You are senior enough that your job is safe. We need to stop screwing our fellow pilots over for our own good. That means stop scoping out the bottom of the list for small raises for the top, stop suing the junior pilots for targeting after they saved your pension (a north sore subject), etc. I'm sick and tired of this entitlement attitude. Major guys blame the regionals, but the major guys need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

 

[General Lee]

General, even with the 747-200 pull down the DALS side is far more overstaffed than the DALN side. The staffing increase coming to the North side will help absorb alot of the freighter pull down. displacements are happening and coming from both sides regardless as they realign everything.

Yes, we are more overstaffed, although a lot of the same cuts we are getting this fall (route wise) will be re-added in March of next year. That is how Delta works--always has. We are a Spring and Summer airline. We always cut way back in the Fall (do most of the training then), and then add flights back in the Spring. A furlough is cost efficient if a pilot is out 2 years. With similar block hours, we will need about the same amount of pilots. I know that could change, but so far it has not.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Why are you such an ass? We are ridiculously overstaffed on both sides. In two and a half years, the Northwest retirements start in full force. I am talking about the guys that are going to hit 65 and be forced to retire. This will keep the furloughs to a minimum. You Delta south guys are going to benefit tremendously. You want to basically take everything good the north has to offer with none of the bad. I am not even sure the 747-200's would be gone this soon if it wasn't for SOC. Stop thinking so much about yourself. You are senior enough that your job is safe. We need to stop screwing our fellow pilots over for our own good. That means stop scoping out the bottom of the list for small raises for the top, stop suing the junior pilots for targeting after they saved your pension (a north sore subject), etc. I'm sick and tired of this entitlement attitude. Major guys blame the regionals, but the major guys need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

I am not trying to be an azz, but we don't give concessions to the company for nothing. I don't want anyone furloughed, and I don't think we will have any. We will have more SILs and lower ALVs, and hopefully that will do it.

Bye Bye--General Lee