Anderson to align capacity with demand

[General Lee]

Yep, damn those idiots for honoring their pension obligations. Gas bill is higher.......wait, we got the most fuel efficient fleet out there. How those DC-9's and MD-88 doing? Sure we'll cut capacity again, but if we're short staffed, what impact is that going to be. Delta has over 12,000 pilots. So a ten percent cut with pilots equals????

The ten percent cut was already figured in with our last displacement bid. We actually displaced people and never filled in some of the lost spots. And the MD88 is a lot cheaper than your new planes since the leases were cut in BK, and the DC9s are owned outright. All we do is pay for the gas on those birds, and we are hedged a lot better than you for the rest of 09. Your hedges are embarassing. You know that too. But, I am glad you are short staffed, it may help a lot when your airline announces route cuts in July.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[contrail67]

I can tell you it wasn't. This economy is killing us. I agree that we will see some sort of job loss out of this. Not much probably about what you guys at CAL have. (ALL IMHO)

The economy is killing everyone...anyone that thinks they will not be caught up in this, only shows ignorance. And everyone thought UAL was being too aggressive when they announced cut backs 1 year ago.

 

[jetjockey#1]

I keep hearing you guys talk about furloughs, but, wait a minute, don't we have a no furlough clause that can only be voided through force manure.. Seriously, a slow economy would qualify? I thought an act of war, 9-11, or an act of god, a tornado trashing 60 airplanes were the qualifiers. I am not sure the company could furlough just because the economy ain't happening.

If I remember correctly back in 02-03 they furloughed too many guys using 9-11, and they were forced to bring them back, actually pay them to stay home. I would think there would be a grievance if furloughs are announced, and the company would have to prove that they either furlough the lowest paid 10% of the pilot group, or we will be back in bk again. So, just relax it may happen, but right now it's very complicated from a logistic standpoint. Hey non-dal pilots, mind your own store, I know most of you wish you were here, but you're not, so go to your company's thread and post your comments over there, where somebody might care to read them, over here you are wasting computer memory

 

[michael707767]

I keep hearing you guys talk about furloughs, but, wait a minute, don't we have a no furlough clause that can only be voided through force manure..

Nope. No furloughs can result from the merger. With the economy I don't think the company would have any problem proving it's not from the merger. Also if they furlough, the company has to pull six seats out of all the 76 seat jets. Can't remember if it's any furlough at all or if there is a certain number that triggers that one. At any rate, I stand by what I said earlier. If a furlough happens, Moak will give the company relief from taking the seats out. I have zero doubt on that one.

 

[jetflier]

Wow. The NYC ER category will be cleaned out for awhile, and there are some indefinite suspensions of a few flights in ATL and CVG. Could there be furloughs? Again, it was said they needed about 2 years for it to be financially smart, and a lot of the flights are coming back in the Spring. We shall see. Not good. It will be a slow Fall and Winter for sure.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You know General,......I don't see too many Northwest Airlines flights on that list! balances out the cut in the 747-200 freighters in ANK.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

IF furloughs happen i dont think it will happen pre-soc because of the logistics and complexity that comes with it. So at the earliest i would guess January and thats after they attempt lowering maxes, offer SLIPs, and we see a couple more rounds of PIRPs. We'll see

It can happen if they do a joint AE prior to SOC and then furlough from the bottom of the AE list. It puts everyone in position so no one would get knocked out of order.
It is very doable.

Michael707767. For the 07 and 08 hires they only have to take out 6 seats in about 26 jets. IE the ones in the 76 seat scope settlement
If a 01 hire goes it is six seats in every 76 seat jet and the number of 76 seat jets goes down to something like 55. (not sure of that number)

I do not see them getting to a 01 hire. They will either delay SOC to furlough, or they will take the 470 or so that are 07/08 hires on the bottom of the combined list.
IMHO I do not see that many going.

 

[EWR_FO]

Your hedges are embarassing.

More embarrassing than losing billions?

 

[avrodriver]

Oh lord....here we go.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I have to throw in the towel and admit that furloughs are coming. Further, I will lay good money that there is no way Lee Moak will make the company pull those extra six seats out of the RJ90s when the furloughs happen.

I agree....Moak will let them keep the seats in saying revenue and a stronger company will get those pilots back.....which is a crock of $hit.

If furloughs don't happen before SOC, then plan on it immediately after...

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

It can happen if they do a joint AE prior to SOC and then furlough from the bottom of the AE list. It puts everyone in position so no one would get knocked out of order.
It is very doable.

Michael707767. For the 07 and 08 hires they only have to take out 6 seats in about 26 jets. IE the ones in the 76 seat scope settlement
If a 01 hire goes it is six seats in every 76 seat jet and the number of 76 seat jets goes down to something like 55. (not sure of that number)

I do not see them getting to a 01 hire. They will either delay SOC to furlough, or they will take the 470 or so that are 07/08 hires on the bottom of the combined list.
IMHO I do not see that many going.

ACL,

Excuse me for not paying attention, but I was under the impression that if the airline furloughs anybody ALL 76 seaters lose chairs.

Correct me if I'm wrong.....I hope I'm not for our 07 08 people.

 

[jonjuan]

It can happen if they do a joint AE prior to SOC and then furlough from the bottom of the AE list. It puts everyone in position so no one would get knocked out of order.
It is very doable.

Michael707767. For the 07 and 08 hires they only have to take out 6 seats in about 26 jets. IE the ones in the 76 seat scope settlement
If a 01 hire goes it is six seats in every 76 seat jet and the number of 76 seat jets goes down to something like 55. (not sure of that number)

But, wouldn't they specifically be looking to reduce capacity on the "inefficient" RJs especially with oil potentially going to 80+?

 

[General Lee]

You know General,......I don't see too many Northwest Airlines flights on that list! balances out the cut in the 747-200 freighters in ANK.

They will right size the routes, though. They have put A330s into ATL for the Summer becuase those planes were the right size for bigger Summer loads. That doesn't mean they will stick around. In a bad economy, the 767ER and 757ERs might be better fits for a lot of routes this Fall and Winter. ATL to FCO, AMS, and LGW (all A330 stuff now) used to be 76ERs. You also know that at least 5 744s will be parked, right? I think both sides will get hit, again.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

More embarrassing than losing billions?

Which is what might happen to you coming up here thanks to bad hedges. Just wait until you merge with United, and you will see what type of losses occur during mergers.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

These same guys said there was NO WAY Delta could go BK after 9-11. They had such a strong cash position, and all that!

I know you were flaming... but there is a lot of truth to the statement.

The difference this time around is that Delta reacts much more quickly to market conditions. Delta's management is much more operationally focused and unlike Delta's old management (and United's current management) is less focused on harvard'esque case studies by 28 year old MBA's who had never been in airline ops. Now Delta is being run by 50 somethings with a lot of PIC time in the equipment.

I think Delta always has to be on guard for creeping arrogance. Yes, we are the biggest. Yes, we are well positioned, BUT we are at the mercy of each and every customer we serve. We need their business.

 

[BID]

Which is what might happen to you coming up here thanks to bad hedges. Just wait until you merge with United, and you will see what type of losses occur during mergers.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Who told you we were merging with United? Oh wait that is your educated guess! Hey we might have some bad fuel hedges, but we have some new fuel efficient aircraft. As much as I want to fly a DC-9, we have none.

Our CEO has stated that if Delta gets stronger, they will take another look at consolidation. Is Delta getting stronger? Is Delta a threat to our NYC operation? I don't think so. BTW, although there might be many similarities between Dela and Continental, our INTL market IS different. There was a great article in the Wall Street Journal years ago about this. Our PVG flights are holding up very well, its a shame the US gov't gave this route to UAL and then Delta. We could of used it years ago.

This does not mean CAL will not decide on further capacity cuts. I hope we do not. When the business traveler comes back it will be quick and we must be ready. Tough choices.

But in the end, I hope we do not see any furloughs at Delta, I have many friends there. I also don't want to see any 70 seat RJs. ugh! Just don't be telling us that CAL is in worse shape than Delta because we are not.

 

[AlbieF15]

Fins/Mike707,

If things do go south and furloughs happen, with the new seniority list what kind of dates of hire are you looking at with 200/400/600/1000 pilots? I've got several friends that are pre 9/11 hires, and few more recent ones as well.

 

[~~~^~~~]

So is the most confusing day for you "father's day"? I mean after all, you must really hide some major resentment towards Delta pilots since 6 of them ganged your mom causing your birth!

That's not saying much for Delta pilots. Are you sure it wasn't someone on the top end of the Mesa list who said they flew for Delta? It can get really confusing. :laugh:

Spiky Hair Pilot: I fly for Skywest. We are a subsidiary of SkyWest holdings that performs Delta and United flying that we took from, Altlantic Southeast which is our subsidiary and Freedom, a subsidiary of Mesa Airlines and some of our airplanes came from Independence Airlines, that used to be ACA. But now Shuttle America does that flying. They are a subsidiary of Republic Airlines Holdings, but their airplanes come from Mid Atlantic which was a US Air group, that once went by Brickyard.
Cougar / MILF: Huh? You got anymore of that Sutter Home or that Boone's Farm? Tastes like the fruit juice in my kids sippy cups... giggle
Spiky Hair Pilot: Yeah, grunt
Cougar / MILF: You wear the weirdest underwear
Spkiy Hair Pilot: Don't touch my Garmies
Cougar / MILF: So you fly for Southwest? I used to know some of their pilots too - giggle with a snort - 'excuse me
Spiky Hair Pilot: No, S k y - West
Cougar / MILF: I thought you said United?
Spiky Hair'd Pilot: I mean't Delta
Cougar / MILF: Your hair doesn't look like a Marine's, but OK

 

[ACL65PILOT]

ACL,

Excuse me for not paying attention, but I was under the impression that if the airline furloughs anybody ALL 76 seaters lose chairs.

Correct me if I'm wrong.....I hope I'm not for our 07 08 people.

The short answer is no. Here is what the LOA states.

Section 1 B. 40. d. and e. of the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (the PWA currently in effect) reads as follows:
40. “Permitted aircraft type” means: . . .
d. one of up to 120 jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The number of 76-seat jets may be increased above 120 by three 76-seat jets for each aircraft above the number of aircraft in the baseline fleet operated by the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares) as of CBAID. The baseline fleet number will be 440+N, in which N is the number of aircraft (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares but not including permitted aircraft types) added to the Company’s baseline fleet from NWA. The number and type of all aircraft in the Company’s fleet on CBAID will be provided to the Association. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat jets permitted by Section 1 B. 40. may not exceed 255.
Exception: Up to the 36 EMB-175s that were operated and/or ordered by Northwest prior to CBAID may continue to be operated with up to a maximum gross takeoff weight of 89,000 pounds.
e. once the number of permitted 76-seat jets is established, it will not be reduced.
Exception one: If a pilot on the seniority list with an employment date prior to September 1, 2001 is placed on furlough, the Company will convert all 76-seat jets for operation as 70-seat jets.
Exception two: In the event the flow provisions of NWA LOA 2006-10 and LOA 2006-14 cease to be available, either at the feeder carrier affiliate referenced in such LOAs or at another carrier, the number of jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats specified in Section 1 B. 40. d. will revert to 85.

The Company will agree to the Association’s interpretation of Section 1 B. 40. d. and e. but provides a one-time exception to this interpretation allowing the Company to operate up to 153* 76-seat jets so long as the Company does not furlough any pilot on the integrated system seniority list as of February 9, 2009, the date the agreement was signed. With agreement on the interpretation of Section 1 B. 40. d. and e, any further increase above 153 76-seat jets will require substantial mainline fleet growth. For example, for the Company to add a 154th 76-seat jet, the mainline would have to be comprised of 768 mainline jets. Today the mainline fleet consists of 753 aircraft.
•
If the Company does furlough any pilot on the Integrated System Seniority List, then the Company will physically remove six passenger seats from the number of 76-seat jets (in service, undergoing maintenance and operational spares) that exceeds the authorized number of 76-seat jets under the Association’s interpretation of Section 1 B. 40. d. and e.
•
While the Company will have 90 days from the first furlough to physically remove the seats, such seats will become immediately unusable for any purpose upon the furlough of the very first pilot on the list.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fins/Mike707,

If things do go south and furloughs happen, with the new seniority list what kind of dates of hire are you looking at with 200/400/600/1000 pilots? I've got several friends that are pre 9/11 hires, and few more recent ones as well.

To get to the most junior NWA pre 9-11 hire you would need to furlough over 400 pilot off the bottom of the combined list.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins/Mike707,

If things do go south and furloughs happen, with the new seniority list what kind of dates of hire are you looking at with 200/400/600/1000 pilots? I've got several friends that are pre 9/11 hires, and few more recent ones as well.

That really depends on which scenario takes place. Do you mean NWA side, Delta side or combined? The lists we have now do not include Date of Hire to avoid just these sorts of comparisons and the lists made immediately after the merger are no longer completely accurate.

One theory going around is a furlough prior to SOC off just the Delta side for practical reasons (as NWA equipment is being used to backfill Delta flying the NWA side is understaffed) and to avoid some of the more onerous scope provisions that trigger off the 9/1/2001 DOH (which is more senior on the Delta side). The really ugly part of that would be that the hundreds of NWA pilots on furlough bypass would be recalled before most of the Delta pilots.

In other words the first Delta pilot furloughed would be about the 250th to be recalled.

Albie, I think the answer to your question, very roughly, would be from the bottom, 800 are 2007 and later hires. 1,100 to 800 are the 2000 to 2001 guys.