ALPA Signs off on Age 65

[thor2j]

descrimination, Couldn't find this word in the dictionary either.

Oh yeah, what the hell is a dictionary???? i know what spell check is I just didn't use it. Wrong generation old man!!

 

[bubbers44]

Anger management courses are available if that is the issue. Most senior pilots are not ready for the retirement farm, as you think, but it is pretty much out of our hands now so just calm down a bit to avoid an overtemp.

 

[thor2j]

Not as much anger as much as utter disapointment in ALPA. They once again only look to self satisfy. I just have to come to the realization that 2% of my money is completely flushed away for no use what so ever.

 

[d328pilot]

And I'll ask you the same: What would you do if you were Generalissimo and FAA Queen for a day?

1. Make pilots that want to work over age 60 move back into the right seat. That way they preserve the career expetations of the junior pilots (majority) and at the same time allow them to still work. That seems to be a pretty good compromise.

2. Instead of having pilots wake up and read the sudden change in policy on the ALPA message board, get my "blue ribbon panel" out to educate the members as to why there needs to be a change in policy, then change it. Not just "we know what is best for you." If they are so sure it is what is best, they should be able to convince the memebership of it. Spend the money on education, not worthless poll after poll.

3. Term limits on ALPA officers...no more career politician. I would like to have a pilot actually run the union. (how many alpa presidents have ever gone back to the line when they leave office??) my guess is 0.

4. Make MECs enforce the contracts. If they dont, then there should be consequences. Maybe a few fines for actions would help to motivate the troops. Right now it sure doesnt seem that this union has any teeth.

5. I would end the union's blind support of the democratic party. I would end any contribution until they can answer "what have you done for us". You help us, we give you money. period...

6. Oh...and tell the us air guys that if you want binding arbitration, then dont agree to it....

Thats my short list..in order

 

[Furloughed80]

Is the CAL MEC pushing for waivers for pilots that will reach 60 before the rule is changed?

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... here is one simple question for you:

If Open Skies and Cabotage become imminent (Congress is for it, the White House is for it, the FAA is for it), how is ALPA going to handle that?

OK, for a minute, let's assume we have 100% membership contribution to ALPA-PAC. Even with that kind of participation, do you think we could go head to head with the big business lobby? Highly unlikely...

ALPA is growing more and more irrelevant and outdated by the day.

 

[BoilerUP]

Thank you d328 for specifics...that's what I was hoping to get out of Rez.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

1. Make pilots that want to work over age 60 move back into the right seat. That way they preserve the career expetations of the junior pilots (majority) and at the same time allow them to still work. That seems to be a pretty good compromise.

ok. Then what about the guys that are 61-64. Can they come back? How are you going to do this?

2. Instead of having pilots wake up and read the sudden change in policy on the ALPA message board, get my "blue ribbon panel" out to educate the members as to why there needs to be a change in policy, then change it. Not just "we know what is best for you." If they are so sure it is what is best, they should be able to convince the memebership of it. Spend the money on education, not worthless poll after poll.

I think most of the ALPA pilots of the EB don't want the change either. They just realize they know its coming. Look at it this way, you know you are going to get screwed, ALPA is just trying to get them (FAA) to use a condom.

3. Term limits on ALPA officers...no more career politician. I would like to have a pilot actually run the union. (how many alpa presidents have ever gone back to the line when they leave office??) my guess is 0.

Please. This shows your disconnect. What does this have to do with age60 anyway? It is not that the democratic model is broken it is just that the member pilots don't practice democracy.

4. Make MECs enforce the contracts. If they dont, then there should be consequences. Maybe a few fines for actions would help to motivate the troops. Right now it sure doesnt seem that this union has any teeth.

I don't know where to begin. This is like putting a financial penalty on your self for paying bills late or getting a speeding ticket. What fund will the fines be paid from?

Why do you think the union doesn't have teeth. Who gave you the expectation that the union does have teeth? YOU? the cynical jackass you flew with after IOE?

Look, man, you and most pilots think unions should be stronger.. Go to Europe! There is a reason FedEx can't set up shop in Paris! One of the reasons why unions aren't as strong as you'd like them to be is because our members poltically vote against their career. Being a right wing capital-free marketist forces kinda of airline pilot doesn't work! In addition, pilots treat union leaders like fire and forget missiles. ALPA is not a self cleaning oven.

5. I would end the union's blind support of the democratic party. I would end any contribution until they can answer "what have you done for us". You help us, we give you money. period...

And here it is... I didn't read your number five while a I was responding to your number four.

ALPA doesn't blindly support the Dems. The AFL-CIO might, but ALPA doesn't. Perhaps you need to get more involved in your council. ALPA is engaged with the politicans that help pilots.


When you land do you stand on the jetbridge and say "I just saved your life, we had an emergency, but I averted disaster! Enjoy your life" And ALPA doesn't do the same when it stops legislation or makes a political gain for its members.

6. Oh...and tell the us air guys that if you want binding arbitration, then dont agree to it....

What does this have to do with age60?

Thats my short list..in order

Did you ever hear a pilot at your flight school or someone in the squadron talk about going to the airlines and saying.. 'I hope I am politically effective as an airline pilot.' But you hear guys talking about flying jets, making good money and good QOL. The question is HOW! How do you get good pay and QOL? Politics. So shouldn't every pilot be politically effective?

The answer to your short list is to become a better member. Nothing will get better until the collective membership gets more effective and more involved. Most of the memberships issues are unfounded and misinformed. so they spend time and energy getting fustrated only to reject unions believing they are fubar. So where does that leave us...??

Thank you d328 for specifics...that's what I was hoping to get out of Rez.

I wouldn't do that to you.....

 

[Huck]

Everybody turn around and look at the FFDO program.

That was the high water mark for ALPA. It cratered after that.

It's time for the new world order, boys. Figure out your place in it. Prater et al just drove organized labor in the airlines over a cliff. May they choke on their last 5 years of pay....

Personally I think the future will be in corporate. Airline flying will go the way of the merchant marine. But Taiwanese pilots may not be attractive to your average King Aire owner.

 

[Flopgut]

Rez:

You have no idea how painful it is getting to read your ramblings. I don't dislike you, but you're a nut.

Union work needs to be conducted in a simple and deliberate manner. It is possible to be/act too smart for union work to be effective. They [union leasdership] must do what their members tell them to do. In the absence of that, inspire the membership via leadership to a new vision. Under NO circumstances do you ignore an accurate survey, taint a second survey (and then not even allow it to run it's course), and then unilaterally decide for the membership! When that happens the union becomes non functional.

All this fundamental stuff you're bogged down in is of no use anymore. The time has come to talk about our CBAs and how we're going to fold these new pilots in if thie does change. We can set this straight through our work agreements for everyones benefit.

 

[pkober]

Is the CAL MEC pushing for waivers for pilots that will reach 60 before the rule is changed?

I hadn't heard that.

The fact is that union, ALPA included, are big businesses. They will do what will bring money into the business. If allowing pilots to fly until 65 is the key right now, that's what they will support. Five more years of squeezing dues out of a top ender is allot of money.

I long ago lost the dream that ALPA was somehow above the fray of normal greedy businesses.

 

[d328pilot]

ok. Then what about the guys that are 61-64. Can they come back? How are you going to do this?

I'm not. They missed the boat. My rule would state that you had to be under 60 to serve as PIC under part 121. That preserves movement and allows them to continue to fly.

I think most of the ALPA pilots of the EB don't want the change either. They just realize they know its coming. Look at it this way, you know you are going to get screwed, ALPA is just trying to get them (FAA) to use a condom.

Probably true. But I think pilots are getting fed up with ALPA telling them what is best. Why bother to poll the membership if you disregard it anyway??

Please. This shows your disconnect. What does this have to do with age60 anyway?

I was asked what I would do if I were in charge of ALPA for a day.

It is not that the democratic model is broken it is just that the member pilots don't practice democracy.

You must have mistyped... you mean ALPA doesnt practice democracy.

Why do you think the union doesn't have teeth. Who gave you the expectation that the union does have teeth? YOU? the cynical jackass you flew with after IOE?

What expectation??? It doesnt have teeth. This union today is nothing like the union that is in "Flying the line"

The answer to your short list is to become a better member. Nothing will get better until the collective membership gets more effective and more involved. Most of the memberships issues are unfounded and misinformed. so they spend time and energy getting fustrated only to reject unions believing they are fubar. So where does that leave us...??

I spent 6 years at a regional. 4 of those were serving as a status rep. It is really sad because I feel that we were harmed by ALPA just as much, if not more than our own management. ALPA is more messed up than most people realize. The age 60 change plus the US Air Arbitration might just break the camel's back.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not. They missed the boat. My rule would state that you had to be under 60 to serve as PIC under part 121. That preserves movement and allows them to continue to fly.

Ok... so how are you going to get the FAA and DOT to agree to that?

Probably true. But I think pilots are getting fed up with ALPA telling them what is best. Why bother to poll the membership if you disregard it anyway??

If you don't poll the membership then the outcry of no voice would be louder...

I was asked what I would do if I were in charge of ALPA for a day.

And another guy would eliminate dues and conduct an SOS.... That doesn't mean it is best for the membership..

You must have mistyped... you mean ALPA doesnt practice democracy.

Explain. Most American want out of Iraq. What about the will of that majority?

What expectation??? It doesnt have teeth. This union today is nothing like the union that is in "Flying the line"

Please. The good ol days? The guys in FTL had it worst or just as bad. Quit romancing the past... Lets look to the future..

I spent 6 years at a regional. 4 of those were serving as a status rep. It is really sad because I feel that we were harmed by ALPA just as much, if not more than our own management. ALPA is more messed up than most people realize. The age 60 change plus the US Air Arbitration might just break the camel's back.

So what is the solution? What then?

 

[d328pilot]

Ok... so how are you going to get the FAA and DOT to agree to that?

By convincing my membership this is the best course of action. Instead of asking them time after time in a poll, why not spend that money on education materials for the pilots to explain why this change is going to happen and what we can do about it. An informed and motivated pilot group that feels like they are the union can be a powerful voice. One where the members feel as if they are an afterthought......well...then you have ALPA

If you don't poll the membership then the outcry of no voice would be louder...

That's supposed to justify it? I just punched you in the face, but at least I told you it was coming....

And another guy would eliminate dues and conduct an SOS.... That doesn't mean it is best for the membership..

Hardly in the same ballpark as things that I listed.

Explain. Most American want out of Iraq. What about the will of that majority?

America is not a democracy nor has it ever been. It is a republic. There are too many people in this country for a pure democracy to work. That is not the case with ALPA. While the general pilot population may not be as active in ALPA as you like, they are more informed about issues that affect them then citizens are about current events. Go find me one pilot that doesnt know what the age 60 debate is about and what affect it will have for him personally. You wont find one.

Please. The good ol days? The guys in FTL had it worst or just as bad. Quit romancing the past... Lets look to the future..

Give me the union of the past so that I might have a future.

So what is the solution? What then?

Sometimes things are beyond repair and they should just be scrapped and started anew. Is ALPA at that point? Im not sure..... But if its not, its right at the edge about to fall off.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Age 65 has got to probably be one of the most poorly thought out rule changes to our profession in many years. Though it helps the most senior in the short term; this rule change will create many negative consequences for the junior pilots which will continue to haunt us for many years down the road.

Make no mistake about this – Age 65 is a way for only the very senior to profit at the expense of the junior. Southwest was the main proponent of the rule change. Southwest’s main motivation for Age 65 was the inability of their negotiating teams to secure a good retirement medical plan and not having a solid third retirement leg to supplement their 401K and stagnate stock price. What they have failed to negotiate with their own company has now hurt many of us.

By raising the age to 65, plan on major negative long-term ramifications in the following areas:

1. Downward pressure on wages and retirement plans – Companies will now claim we have an additional five years to make additional income.
2. Medicals – Will our medicals continue to be the joke they are?
3. Stagnation – AMR has no current plans for growth – only replacement aircraft. No growth plus no retirements equals massive stagnation.
4. Impact on attracting qualified personal to the profession – low pay and lack of career growth will force many to abandon their ambitions for a career in aviation and look at other more profitable professions.
5. Safety – Ask yourself how safe will 64 ½ years olds will be flying five legs a day or flying double all-nighters to the deep-south for months on end. A couple of accidents in this area and our company’s future and our pension plans are further in peril.
6. Once implemented, Age 65 solves the company’s manning shortage for the next five years. Again, no growth plans for AMR.
7. Will the early retirement penalty for our A-Fund that is now from age 50 to age 59 11/12 now shift five years? Will going out at 55 now be considered leaving 10 years early? They say no now, but management will eventually want to shift it to coincide with the new retirement age.
8. Age 65 will create a split membership thereby helping management to further their cost cutting agenda on the pilot corps. We are very quickly evolving to a membership of the have and the have-nots. Older pilots will be very loath to actually fight management’s cost cutting agenda. A “don’t rock the boat” mentality will prevail for the next couple of contracts until they start to retire.
9. By raising the age to 65, we now will be forced to spend (to earn back our money lost to stagnation) an extra five years in an already unstable industry. Gas prices, competition, bad management, terrorist activity, and low pay all make this profession very risky at the present moment. There is very little risk/reward for F/O’s at the present. Ask any junior pilot and most will tell you they don’t plan on having an A-Fund when they retire.

Age 65 is the rule change of the greedy, self-serving, and selfish. The rule change was thought up by pilots with diminutive brains with an inability to see further down the road than their five year lottery pay out.

What a mess these guys have created and it’s the junior guys that will be forced to either live with it or clean it up.

Want to know the reason why our profession continues it death spiral – all we have to do is look in the mirror.

AA767AV8TOR