ALPA Signs off on Age 65

[canyonblue]

Luv,I'm pretty sure you can't negotiate a contract that is against a labor law.

No, but you can negotiate a worse payout of retirement for those who stay until they are 65. Just call it a "Late" retirement penalty.

 

[filejw]

Canyon, Your reaching just a bit, good luck.In the 15 yrs I have left I think we should be looking out for Cabotage and foreign ownership cause those are the things is Congress has really lined up on. In fact they are just now getting ready to allow EU cargo airlines the right to fly in the US. That's how deregulation started in 78 with cargo first. Next thing you will have Easy Jet and Ryan Air etc flying DAL/HOU. This is the type thing ALPA should be working not just one issue.Especially an issue they have been told they would lose.Please remember the American people basically think its their right to fly free and the don't really care how it effects some airline pilot.

 

[Widow's Son]

>>Since you opened up the discussion, I’m interested – What exactly is your side willing to give up to “mitigate the impact of change?”<<

I don't speak for anyone but myself, and I don't really have a dog in the fight, as I'm not on the bubble of retirement, but I would endorse some sort of economic adjustment to help mitigate the financial effects and I don't think I'm alone on that.
I've seen proposals for lump sum exchanges between retirement accounts of those who get to stay and those who get held back. There are also ideas of dues assessments/rebates. Most of the guys I know who are on the bubble recognize the impact and would be amenable to helping mitigate it. (especially since the other side has been so supportive and empathetic to their cause)

>>With your statement above, you do indicate a realization that many of us will suffer economic loss and damages by any change in the retirement age.<<

Over the short term I don't think that was ever in question. Over the long term most studies show that the aggregate effects are neutral or even positive for most situations.

 

[Freight Dog]

]I think we should be looking out for Cabotage and foreign ownership cause those are the things is Congress has really lined up on. In fact they are just now getting ready to allow EU cargo airlines the right to fly in the US. That's how deregulation started in 78 with cargo first. Next thing you will have Easy Jet and Ryan Air etc flying DAL/HOU. This is the type thing ALPA should be working not just one issue.Especially an issue they have been told they would lose.

File... if Congress wants Cabotage and foreign ownership along with the White House, what can ALPA do? It's an inevitable change, just like changing Age 60 rule. ALPA will support it, especially if Prater is still in office.

 

[filejw]

Ya and that's why I say move on.We need to working on a national standard contract, getting rid of the RR labor act, preparing for foreign ownership etc etc. Thing we haven't lost yet.

 

[Freight Dog]

ALPA will agree to support cabotage and Foreign Ownership because it's part of globalization and it'll happen whether we want it or not.

They'll just ask that in exchange for our support, they make any foreign carrier pilot domiciled in the U.S. to join ALPA so they can get collect some more dues.

Y'know.... to be involved in the change n all.

 

[mamba20]

So when does it take effect? Is there going to be any kind of grandfathering policy?

 

[Flopgut]

I see no reason to have any optimism about ALPA's ability to handle foreign control or cabotage. All they have to do is offer a windfall opportunity to ALPA's senior minority and guys like Prater will make sure the issue is supported.

No one should assail Andy for his strike comment without giving the same grief to a pilot who wants this age changed. Precious little separates the two opinions. Pilot works past 60 or a pilot crosses a picket line? Same net effect.

*That being said, I appreciate Black Hawk and Widow's son's acknowledgement that perhaps some seniority give and take should take place.

 

[enigma]

Picture this - you are driving down the road, in your own lane, minding your own business, you round a bend to find yourself headlight to headlight with an 18 wheeler in your lane.

What do you do? Here are your choices -
1. Maintain your lane because it's your lane and he shouldn't be there.
2. Move out his way.

ALPA choose to move out of the way.

 

[Flopgut]

ALPA choose to move out of the way.

And steer the car straight onto the sidewalk where 70% of their members were standing!

 

[Black Hawk]

I see no reason to have any optimism about ALPA's ability to handle foreign control or cabotage. All they have to do is offer a windfall opportunity to ALPA's senior minority and guys like Prater will make sure the issue is supported.

No one should assail Andy for his strike comment without giving the same grief to a pilot who wants this age changed. Precious little separates the two opinions. Pilot works past 60 or a pilot crosses a picket line? Same net effect.

*That being said, I appreciate Black Hawk and Widow's son's acknowledgement that perhaps some seniority give and take should take place.

Let's be careful here when tossing the crossing of picket lines around. While I hold an opinion that might be unpopular among some there is absolutely no way I would cross any pilot's picket line ever. If all the current contracts remain the same then certainly some pilots would benefit and some would be hurt. I just don't think all other contract items will continue to remain the same and that contracts will be adjusted to reflect a new reality. Change is taking place and many long ingrained contract philosophies and expectations will have to change with it. Companies, unions and pilot's will have simply have to adjust and I think they will. That's a lot different point of view than someone who will cross a picket line to take someone else's job for themselves.

 

[Flopgut]

I hear you.

But on a certain level, both are a type of seniority aggression. Plain and simple.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

so much hate and anger......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's the most important question. Rez's answer was less than satisfactory, to put it lightly. We've now conducted multiple polls on this subject. Each one of these polls concluded that a majority favored the current policy, and the President, EC, and the EB have completely ignored the will of the membership. Simply deplorable.

The political fall out would've been greater if no poll was taken.

Welcome to reality and the way of the world....

It just isn't happening the way you think it should.... no matter how hard you slam your eyes shut and believe it should... everytime you open your eyes there is no change....

So you can work with the players or slam your eyes shut again....

ALPA is choosing to work with the players.....

 

[Flopgut]

so much hate and anger......

Let me know when I'm wrong.

 

[Flopgut]

The political fall out would've been greater if no poll was taken.

Welcome to reality and the way of the world....

It just isn't happening the way you think it should.... no matter how hard you slam your eyes shut and believe it should... everytime you open your eyes there is no change....

So you can work with the players or slam your eyes shut again....

ALPA is choosing to work with the players.....

Again Rez: I've been in three labor unions as a pilot. I've been well represented, and this aint it.

You're commentary comes easy to you because you're free of the burden of having a even a clue of what proper representation is.

 

[Falconjet]

Just heads up for couple of you guys who mentioned putting over sixty's into the right seat.In most states and the Federal government have existing age discrimination law that would prevent that.

WOW!!!!!!

That is a whopper. Please, Mr. Lawyer, show us that/those statutes somewhere. These must be all the laws that prevented forcing the over 60 guys into the back seats.

That is one of the stupidest, out the azz comments ever typed on this board. Congrats.

FJ

 

[Falconjet]

And yeah, while I am raging against the machine, Rez, you are officially an idiot. I hate to say it, because we agreed on a lot of things, but you are completely in denial about what ALPA is doing for (actually against) you.

Good luck in the future as you wail about not enough people participating in an organization that really doesn't want us to participate.

FJ

 

[Falconjet]

Picture this - you are driving down the road, in your own lane, minding your own business, you round a bend to find yourself headlight to headlight with an 18 wheeler in your lane.

What do you do? Here are your choices -
1. Maintain your lane because it's your lane and he shouldn't be there.
2. Move out his way.

ALPA choose to move out of the way.

Regardless of what ALPA above does, the 18 wheeler was in the WRONG and the driver would presumably be liable for the damages that might occur.

Your argument means nothing. ALPA's stance should be based on what is RIGHT according to the majority of the membership, not on the politics involved. You can dodge the semi and still fight for what you believe in.

ALPA and that diickhead Prater sold us out.

FJ

 

[filejw]

Falcon, Here you go buddy look the rest up on your own.Has nothing to d with the FAA or age 60.

The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 (ADEA) protects certain applicants and employees 40 years of age and older from discrimination on the basis of age in hiring, promotion, discharge, compensation, or terms, conditions or privileges of employment. The ADEA is enforced by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC).

 

[d328pilot]

An age limit may be legally specified in the circumstance where age has been shown to be a "bona fide occupational qualifications reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the particular business" (BFOQ) (see 29 U.S.C. § 623(f)(1)). In practice, BFOQs for age are limited to the obvious (hiring a young actor to play a young character in a movie) or when public safety is at stake (for example, in the case of age limits for pilots and bus drivers).

moving you to the right seat would not violate the law.

 

[filejw]

328, If they approve the 65 thing that wouldn't apply.(F1 below) Here is the part about Unions and age discrimination.

(c) It shall be unlawful for a labor organization-

(1) to exclude or to expel from its membership, or otherwise to
discriminate against, any individual because of his age;

(2) to limit, segregate, or classify its membership, or to classify
or fail or refuse to refer for employment any individual, in any way which
would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment
opportunities, or would limit such employment opportunities or otherwise
adversely affect his status as an employee or as an applicant for
employment, because of such individual's age;

(3) to cause or attempt to cause an employer to discriminate
against an individual in violation of this section.

(d) It shall be unlawful for an employer to discriminate against any of
his employees or applicants for employment, for an employment agency to
discriminate against any individual, or for a labor organization to
discriminate against any member thereof or applicant for membership,
because such individual, member or applicant for membership has opposed
any practice made unlawful by this section, or because such individual,
member or applicant for membership has made a charge, testified, assisted,
or partici pated in any manner in an investigation, proceeding, or
litigation under this chapter.

(e) It shall be unlawful for an employer, labor organization, or
employment agency to print or publish, or cause to be printed or
published, any notice or advertisement relating to employment by such an
employer or membership in or any classification or referral for
employment by such a labor organization, or relating to any classification
or referral for employment by such an employment agency, indicating any
preference, limitation, specification, or discrimination, based on age.

(f) It shall not be unlawful for an employer, employment agency, or labor
organization-

(1) to take any action otherwise prohibited under subsections (a),
(b), (c), or (e) of this section where age is a bona fide occupational
qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of the
particular business, or where the differentiation is based on reasonable
factors other than age, or where such practices involve an employee in a
workplace in a foreign country, and compliance with such subsections would
cause such employer, or a corporation controlled by such employer, to
violate the laws of the country in which such workplace is

 

[Freight Dog]

If ICAO rule is to stand - no two pilots over 60 allowed, and the FAA says no PIC of an aircraft operated under Part 121 can be over 60, sorry jack... that ain't discrimination - that's just the rule... and been upheld by the Supreme Court before.

 

[d328pilot]

It all depends on the specific legislation and what is contained in it. If it comes out and says that the PIC must be below 60, then there isnt anything that you can do about it. There has been age discrimination in the past upheld by the courts and I dont see any reason they would change it now.

It shows how greedy that some are because they wont even entertain the notion of a compromise. filejw, are you by chance a US Airways pilot? I see some of the same logic at work here....

 

[BoilerUP]

It shows how greedy that some are because they wont even entertain the notion of a compromise.

Yeah...because if you really wanted another 5 years in a 121 cockpit because you love to fly, why wouldn't the right seat be acceptable?

Welcome to reality and the way of the world....

Thank Gawd we've got our National officers looking out for our best interests, since us sheeple are not smart enough to figure it out on our own...

It just isn't happening the way you think it should.... no matter how hard you slam your eyes shut and believe it should... everytime you open your eyes there is no change....

So you can work with the players or slam your eyes shut again....

We're not stupid, Rez. We've known the change would likely happen...but the majority of ALPA members didn't expect their National leadership to flip position, sell our wishes down the river, and then feed us spin and lip service like we wanted this to happen and its gonna be roses for all of us. We expected our National leadership to fight...and since National was impotent in preventing Age 60 from a congressional perspective just how much clout do you think ALPA has in influencing the lawmaking process?

ALPA is choosing to work with the players.....

So Rez, when this finally gets pushed through after "working with the players" and there has been no obvious consideration of the negative career implications to junior/furloughed/young ALPA members (other than not being retroactive), who do we complain to then?

 

[Huck]

One of my favorite books is "Into Thin Air" about the 1996 season on Everest.

At the end of the book, the writer Krakauer agonizes over the fact that he didn't go out into the storm to look for his lost teammates, who subsequently froze to death.

Another teammate did go out and look, but could not find them. He tried to console the writer afterwards, but the bottom line was - Krakauer will never know if he could have saved them. The guy that did try can sleep with a clear conscience.


It wasn't an oncoming truck. It was a complex and political maelstrom of competing interests. On one hand was a tightly knit band of older pilots with a gameplan for marching on Capitol Hill. On the other hand was ALPA. David and Goliath, but David won, because Goliath threw in the towel.

And we're supposed to believe that Goliath is going to find his sack quick enough to stop globalization.

I encourage everyone to look at the fight AOPA and EAA are waging against user fees, on the same FAA reauthorization bill. Another "done deal" from Marion Blakey, but somehow they're fighting it anyway.....

 

[filejw]

328 No, but if you go back in this thread you will read some place I'm against the change. I am posting here just to inform folks who are talking about the right seat thing that Federal laws now on the books prevent age discrimination for people over 40(once things change to 65)..Personally I plan on being gone long before sixty.

 

[seefive]

DW slung his BS to the FedEx masses about how we need to change our position on age 60 in order to have a say in how it is implemented. The part he wants a say in is to let over 60 guys back in the front......again, against the vast majority of the pilots at FedEx. He's a joke.

 

[filejw]

And I found this too.
http://www.eeoc.gov/foia/letters/2006/adea_individualizedassessment_faa60rule.html

 

[Flopgut]

Delicately done, I think we could make these guys the new B scale in our CBAs without any sort of discrimination. We all control the pay, and we're the majority, let's put em on about 50% of normal wage...I think they'll retire.