ALPA Signs off on Age 65

[d328pilot]

So the EEOC has been against age 60 for over 20 years and it had no effect. They either are unwilling, or more likely, lack the legal authority to do anything about it. I cant imagine a new rule would be any different.

 

[redbook]

It wasn't an oncoming truck. It was a complex and political maelstrom of competing interests. On one hand was a tightly knit band of older pilots with a gameplan for marching on Capitol Hill. On the other hand was ALPA. David and Goliath, but David won, because Goliath threw in the towel.

And we're supposed to believe that Goliath is going to find his sack quick enough to stop globalization.

I encourage everyone to look at the fight AOPA and EAA are waging against user fees, on the same FAA reauthorization bill. Another "done deal" from Marion Blakey, but somehow they're fighting it anyway.....

Huck you nailed it. FJ too.

ALPA is nothing but a white towel waving, dues grabbing, corrupt organization.

"Guys, you are bound to get screwed, but just keep paying us. Thanks."

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Again Rez: I've been in three labor unions as a pilot. I've been well represented, and this aint it.

Aww thats cute. What is your solution to this?

You're commentary comes easy to you because you're free of the burden of having a even a clue of what proper representation is.

All I hear from your camp is Will of the Membership!!! Do you have anything else to offer?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And yeah, while I am raging against the machine, Rez, you are officially an idiot. I hate to say it, because we agreed on a lot of things, but you are completely in denial about what ALPA is doing for (actually against) you.

Good luck in the future as you wail about not enough people participating in an organization that really doesn't want us to participate.

FJ

Ok then..what do you suggest? More name calling?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

not on the politics involved.

Politcs is everything in this career....

ALPA and that diickhead Prater sold us out.

Still name calling?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Huck you nailed it. FJ too.

ALPA is nothing but a white towel waving, dues grabbing, corrupt organization.

"Guys, you are bound to get screwed, but just keep paying us. Thanks."

What then do you suggest? Replace ALPA with USA and there would be those who would cry treason..... Pilots are ready to rip off there black and white ID lanyard, wear their pin upside down or not at all. Maybe you want the FAA or management to represent your interests.

Too many pilots think ALPA is there personal career custodian..... For years the membership was apathetic... then issues come up and they want results... oh yeah you paid your dues


What then do you suggest!!!

 

[Phaedrus]

I feel like Bill Murray in some movie where he shared credits with Punxsutawney Phil...........

 

[d328pilot]

Too many pilots think ALPA is there personal career custodian..... For years the membership was apathetic... then issues come up and they want results... oh yeah you paid your dues

Well which is it Rez? Do you want guys involved or not??? They are voicing their opinions on where ALPA is heading and the majority is NOT happy at all.

In every post, you demean pilots for not getting involved. So what does one have to do to be involved enough? There are only so many positions people be elected or appointed to. What percentage of pilots are off in one given day to attend LEC meeting? There is a reason that people dont get involved in ALPA. No one listens to them anyways. It gets to the point that people say " aww f*ck it". That happened some time ago with ALPA.

You are damn right. They paid their hard earned money and expect something in return. But so far, the have got nothing.

 

[Black Hawk]

A lot of folks here need to wise up. The change is going to take place regardless of what some union majority may think. These are federal rules not union rules. Now that the writing is on the wall it's much smarter for ALPA to get on board and influence how the change is implemented. It's time for unions, contracts and pilots to adjust to the change.

 

[Neubyfly]

Where are the survey results!!!???

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well which is it Rez? Do you want guys involved or not??? They are voicing their opinions on where ALPA is heading and the majority is NOT happy at all.

Incorrect. There is no majority. Only 30% particapted in the online survey. In addition, of the minority particaption, a majority said that if the change was inevitable, then they want ALPA to be a part of the process.

In every post, you demean pilots for not getting involved.

Perhaps... my intent is to motivate them to become active particapants in their career.

So what does one have to do to be involved enough?

With 5% LEC particaption, 30% LEC voter particaption I think one needs to get connected. The only time I've seen 85% or more particaption is a new TA.

Most pilots don't know thier contract and they don't know who thier elected reps are. They have never read the C&BL and have know idea who comprises "ALPA National" yet they hate and despise "Nat'l"

There are only so many positions people be elected or appointed to. What percentage of pilots are off in one given day to attend LEC meeting? There is a reason that people dont get involved in ALPA. No one listens to them anyways.

True that many pilots are working during meetings. At the same time I have spoken to reps that have stated.. during contract negotiations a LEC meeting was being held and outside the meeting room pilots were updating Jepps, talking to freinds, playing cards, etc.. In addition, when the airline declares BK suddenly it is standing room only in the LEC meeting... So pilots en masse know how to show up to a meeting.

This isn't pilot specific but a mentality of many organizations such as HOAs.

It gets to the point that people say " aww f*ck it". That happened some time ago with ALPA.

That is because unions are political organizations. A pilot has an issue and shows up with a resolution to effect change. He is not prepared politically to get the doc passed. It takes work, time and politiking to pass a resolution. I've seen many pilots show up wanting to pass a resolution with zero documentation! Just a verbal effort!

Now he fails at his attempt and declares ALPA fubar!

You are damn right. They paid their hard earned money and expect something in return. But so far, the have got nothing.

If pilots really want ALPA to function like they treat it today, then dues will have to go double digit, so professional politicians can take over. However, the new complaint would be that these reps are non pilots and are out of touch. (sound familiar). In addition the increased dues would go over like profanity in church.

They way it is set up is pilots need to become politically active in their careers. So instead of trying to re-invent the paradigm, let's try and make the current one work. We haven't really tried it out.

Why is it pilots insist on handing over the reigns to thier careers to another when they have the ability to get involved politically and democratically?

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... wanna know why your ordinary ALPA pilot doesn't bother going to meetings anymore or participate in this sh*tbag union? Those Herndon idiots just proved it.

You can have membership do 100% turnout, and you'll still have the jackasses in REPRESENTATION in telling me they know better and do the exact opposite REGARDLESS of the majority.

So tell me... why did I waste 15 minutes of my life which I'll never get back to do that goddamn web poll? Why the f**k did I answer the phone for the telephone survey? That's another 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. Going to the union meetings... did you even bother to ask your FO's or captains why did they not go the union meetings? Their answers will surprise you, but that's not THEIR problem. It's ALPA's problem, and for someone who's claiming to be fixing ALPA, you sure don't have a first clue about the underlying problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez... wanna know why your ordinary ALPA pilot doesn't bother going to meetings anymore or participate in this sh*tbag union? Those Herndon idiots just proved it.

You can have membership do 100% turnout, and you'll still have the jackasses in REPRESENTATION in telling me they know better and do the exact opposite REGARDLESS of the majority.

So tell me... why did I waste 15 minutes of my life which I'll never get back to do that goddamn web poll? Why the f**k did I answer the phone for the telephone survey? That's another 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. Going to the union meetings... did you even bother to ask your FO's or captains why did they not go the union meetings? Their answers will surprise you, but that's not THEIR problem. It's ALPA's problem, and for someone who's claiming to be fixing ALPA, you sure don't have a first clue about the underlying problem.

Your profanity and anger suggest fear and a concern of losing control....

But getting back to your post above... I suggest that if more members were actively involved and informed they would understand the complexity of the issue. Don't take offense as I am afraid you might... Most of the EC members are personally against changing Age60, but through information and briefings they have come to realize the politics of the matter.

What has the membership been doing during the last five years to stop age60 from changing? I venture to say that most have been doing not much or nothing. Pro-active? Nope.. except for ALPAAD. If keeping Age60 is so important to you, as it appears then why not create your own political grassroots effort?

If LEC meetings are not an effective venue then what then do you suggest....

 

[Freight Dog]

I'm not saying that LEC meetings are not an effective venue. What I am saying is that in order to get any response from your membership given the current atmosphere, you have to engage them and do what they are asking you to do.

When you go against the membership, you alienate them even further.

It's funny you should mention on another thread that you don't like listening to officers speak.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps they don't want to listen?

How's this as a remedy?

The issue is such and such... the management wants so and so. What's your stance on this? Start asking around the room. Put people on the spot. Make people believe that their showing up to meetings does indeed influence the decisions and the direction the leadership takes.

In short... it's the leadership that has to show to its members that it's listening and actively soliciting input. Given how it's been handled so far, it's a speech that ends with obligatory "if you have any questions or concerns... please feel free to contact us."

... and you'll continue to have this apathy towards ALPA.

 

[redbook]

What then do you suggest? Replace ALPA with USA and there would be those who would cry treason..... Pilots are ready to rip off there black and white ID lanyard, wear their pin upside down or not at all. Maybe you want the FAA or management to represent your interests.

Too many pilots think ALPA is there personal career custodian..... For years the membership was apathetic... then issues come up and they want results... oh yeah you paid your dues


What then do you suggest!!!

Rez,

If the anvil is tied to your neck and dragging you to the depths, you first have to admit there is a problem.

Your tag line is "fixing ALPA" but it seems you defend the party line.

Believe me there are many who feel as passionately as Freight Dog. I don't think his tone is off the mark given the magnitude of the situation.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not saying that LEC meetings are not an effective venue. What I am saying is that in order to get any response from your membership given the current atmosphere, you have to engage them

They have to show up to engage them.

and do what they are asking you to do.

Please.... one form of leadership is finding out what the members want and figuring out HOW to do it...

The ALPA leadership has figured out HOW... you just don't like it. In part becuase you don't want change and in part because you are looking at the issue from an individual lens and not a collective.

When you go against the membership, you alienate them even further.

At face value... sure... but the issue is complex.. I have not heard you argue effectively against ALPA course of action. All I hear is Will of the Membership. That is not an effective arguement as to why ALPA's course is not the right one..

It's funny you should mention on another thread that you don't like listening to officers speak.

I don't like listening to others who like to hear themselves speak. Just like any meeting............

Has it occurred to you that perhaps they don't want to listen?

Well how'd they get there? The membership. It all comes back to the membership. Funny, you talk of recall. That is the membership becoming activist.

How's this as a remedy?

The issue is such and such... the management wants so and so. What's your stance on this? Start asking around the room. Put people on the spot. Make people believe that their showing up to meetings does indeed influence the decisions and the direction the leadership takes.

Agreed. But how do you get members to show up? Do you have to provide an incentive to get them to be responsible for THEIR OWN careers?

This has been an issue for ALPA for years. They have looked at many changes but in the end.. it comes down to an individuals pilot free choice in his own mind to physically move himslef to the meeting...

The question is why does a pilot have apathy to his career. If it is because ALPA is fubar then does he not have a responsbility to change it? This is democracy 101. Any questions?

In short... it's the leadership that has to show to its members that it's listening and actively soliciting input. Given how it's been handled so far, it's a speech that ends with obligatory "if you have any questions or concerns... please feel free to contact us."

It has been my exp. that soliciting the membership for input results in zero response...

... and you'll continue to have this apathy towards ALPA.

So then...what do you suggest?

 

[rstev1955]

I am truly amazed at 11 pages of people complaining about a process that very few that have posted here understand. There was not one single vote from anyone at ALPA National on this issue. The Executive Board is made up of MEC Chairmen, not the ALPA officers elected to serve in National positions. I know for a fact that my MEC Chairman voted with ALL of our airline's votes in the roll call against the resolution. Instead of blaming Capt Prater, or anyone else at ALPA National, why don't you first find out how your MEC Chairman cast his votes. If anyone voted against the will of their consituents, then it your own MEC Chairmen or LEC representatives that should be recalled.

By the way, if you want to recall Capt Prater over this, guess who has the final vote to do that?

You want ALPA to be a better organization? WE are ALPA...all of us. You have to start at your own LEC to effect change, yet we can't even get people interested in attending meetings. It is so much easier to come on an anonymous forum and complain than to actually get involved.

I'm done.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If the anvil is tied to your neck and dragging you to the depths, you first have to admit there is a problem.

I admit there is a problem. The solution is a complex puzzle. The peice to the puzzle I offer is oncrease membership activity.

Your tag line is "fixing ALPA" but it seems you defend the party line.

No. I just choose to be more engaged and informed than the avg member so I understand the actions and methodologies. That doesn't mean I agree with them.

However, if I am going to disagree with any one on any issue I first have to understand where they are coming from before I can influence change. I have yet to hear guys like FD or FJ show they understand (not agree!) the other side of the issue.

Believe me there are many who feel as passionately as Freight Dog. I don't think his tone is off the mark given the magnitude of the situation.

No disagreement here... what do you suggest?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I am truly amazed at 11 pages of people complaining about a process that very few that have posted here understand. There was not one single vote from anyone at ALPA National on this issue. The Executive Board is made up of MEC Chairmen, not the ALPA officers elected to serve in National positions. I know for a fact that my MEC Chairman voted with ALL of our airline's votes in the roll call against the resolution. Instead of blaming Capt Prater, or anyone else at ALPA National, why don't you first find out how your MEC Chairman cast his votes. If anyone voted against the will of their consituents, then it your own MEC Chairmen or LEC representatives that should be recalled.

By the way, if you want to recall Capt Prater over this, guess who has the final vote to do that?

You want ALPA to be a better organization? WE are ALPA...all of us. You have to start at your own LEC to effect change, yet we can't even get people interested in attending meetings. It is so much easier to come on an anonymous forum and complain than to actually get involved.

I'm done.

I'm just getting started.....

Well FD? FJ? Redbook?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

ALPA changed on age 60/65 because of the class action law suit against the union that was filed by an over age 60 pilot group. The "survey" was not the reason for ALPA's change of position it was the law suit.

In any event, the law suit will financially destroy ALPA for their discriminatory practices on this issue. From the posts I read hear that should make everyone happy. Right?

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA changed on age 60/65 because of the class action law suit against the union that was filed by an over age 60 pilot group.

Um, no. Not even close. Thanks for playing, though.

 

[Freight Dog]

Undaunted... how's retirement treating you?

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... you're completely ignoring what I'm telling you. It's useless to talk to you when you're completely refusing to acknowledge that ALPA has alienated its members by not listening to them.

Why waste time on attending ALPA meetings then? I'm not saying it's the correct attitude, but that's the prevalent thinking.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Undaunted... how's retirement treating you?

Well I would not say I retired. I was terminated from my airline job for no good cause but that's the way it goes for now. I am now more involved in giving flight tests. I do keep busy with that. I just passed a guy yesterday. That was good because I flunked one the day before.

Being forced to retire against your will when you have done nothing wrong is not a good thing.

 

[Flopgut]

ALPA changed on age 60/65 because of the class action law suit against the union that was filed by an over age 60 pilot group. The "survey" was not the reason for ALPA's change of position it was the law suit.

In any event, the law suit will financially destroy ALPA for their discriminatory practices on this issue. From the posts I read hear that should make everyone happy. Right?

Undaunted Flyer! You're back, so that can only mean you have some new piece of information to laud over us (I guess that's what you're eluding to). OK, go ahead and spill it, let's hear it. How much in damages are you guys expecting?

BTW, can you not stay adequately busy giving checkrides? Didn't you fly the triple 7? If so, why are you not at JetAir? Just curious.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Undaunted Flyer! You're back, so that can only mean you have some new piece of information to laud over us (I guess that's what you're eluding to). OK, go ahead and spill it, let's hear it. How much in damages are you guys expecting?

BTW, can you not stay adequately busy giving checkrides? Didn't you fly the triple 7? If so, why are you not at JetAir? Just curious.

No big news yet. And regarding JetAir, I just don't want to live abroad and be home so little.

 

[Flopgut]

No big news yet. And regarding JetAir, I just don't want to live abroad and be home so little.

CAL recently had about 40 guys go over there. Sounds like a good deal, they were all going to live in the US. I can't imagine that's not better than hanging around this issue/lawsuit thing?

Frankly, since these guys didn't go back to the right seat, I think the guys under 65 ought to get to come back. I don't totally agree with you of course, I think it's kind of sad you don't want to go tackle some other life's ambition.

Aren't you motorcycling more? Enjoying time with the family I'm sure?

 

[Flopgut]

I'll tell you something UF, if you had to come back to UAL staffed in the bottom half of ANY sub base, you'd be taking your credentials to JetAir for sure! And so would 80% of your coworkers. This getting back to UAL thing only looks good because you think you'd get that great schedule back.

Why don't you let those guys deal with all that and you go do what 80% of them [us] wish we could do?

 

[d328pilot]

Incorrect. There is no majority. Only 30% particapted in the online survey. In addition, of the minority particaption, a majority said that if the change was inevitable, then they want ALPA to be a part of the process.

So by using that logic, the US has never had a legitimate elected leader.

Most pilots don't know thier contract and they don't know who thier elected reps are. They have never read the C&BL and have know idea who comprises "ALPA National" yet they hate and despise "Nat'l"

Well we can agree this is a problem. But its not up to the individual members to fix it. If pilots dont know who their reps are or dont know the contract, then that is a failure of the leadership. From the LEC all the way up to the top. People will be involved if they feel that they are valued.

True that many pilots are working during meetings. At the same time I have spoken to reps that have stated.. during contract negotiations a LEC meeting was being held and outside the meeting room pilots were updating Jepps, talking to freinds, playing cards, etc.. In addition, when the airline declares BK suddenly it is standing room only in the LEC meeting... So pilots en masse know how to show up to a meeting.

I have never been to a meeting where the above takes place. Even if it does, at least they are there. They are not getting paid to attend a meeting and if they have to use the time to get other things done, then so be it. Most guys have lots of responsibilites they have to juggle. Do you expect a guy to drive 30 minutes from home on one of his 2 days off that he could be spending with his kids if he feels that the organization doesnt value his opinion? Until there is a change in the type of leadership, participation will continue to decline. Again, a FAILURE of leadership, not a member problem.

I've seen many pilots show up wanting to pass a resolution with zero documentation! Just a verbal effort!
Now he fails at his attempt and declares ALPA fubar!

Again, a LEADERSHIP failure. Did your leadership attempt to help or explain how resolutions work? Telling people to go out and read Robert's rules, the constitution and the bylaws is like telling a voter to go out and read the constitution. They are not going to do it. Its legaleze and boring. The leadership should find a way to make this information streamlined and more user friendly.

If pilots really want ALPA to function like they treat it today, then dues will have to go double digit, so professional politicians can take over. However, the new complaint would be that these reps are non pilots and are out of touch. (sound familiar). In addition the increased dues would go over like profanity in church.

There are other unions that are effective and they dont require double digit dues. ALPA is a problem that will not be fixed by throwing money at it.

As I said before, ALPA members feel that the association does not value their input. Until that changes, no one will increase involvement. ALPA suffers from a sever lack of LEADERSHIP. It really is just that simple.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez... you're completely ignoring what I'm telling you. It's useless to talk to you when you're completely refusing to acknowledge that ALPA has alienated its members by not listening to them.

Look, man, if we sat down and had a beer there would be way more in common than not....

I agree that ALPA has alienated its members. The membership is flaming pissed off!

Why waste time on attending ALPA meetings then? I'm not saying it's the correct attitude, but that's the prevalent thinking.

And you agree...

If we don't have representation then we are really screwed! We have to have representation!! If ALPA isn't working then we need to fix it. Like any relationship, in this case between the ALPA leadership and membership, it takes two.........

The biggest complaint is that the leadership doesn't understand the membership. If that is ture then one could also argue that the membership doesn't understand the leadership.

I'll also argue that as pilots we are leaders. You can't be an effective Captain without exercising leadership. So if you are an FO then you must have some leadership qualities as well.

But when it comes time to not fly jets and manage ones career, leadership qualities go away.

If ALPA is FUBAR then ignoring it won't solve the problem. If ALPA is broken then observing the faults doesn't solve problems. Liken it to being stuck on the side of the road. Are you going to hate the car manufacturer or are you going to fix the problem so you can start driving again. Heck, hate the manufacturer but fix the problem....we need fix the problem...


If more pilots got involved... if they became more activist in thier careers I think two things would happen....

The members would begin to see that airmanship skills aren't applicable and political skills are. In addition, they would begin to understand the leaderships actions a bit better...

But most importantly...............

The involved membership will provide increased ideas and methodologies for shaping the association...

The point? Increased particiaption and activism can only make things better. If we continue to be apathetic, cynical and unsupportive then it will contribute to our demise....