ALPA on Emirates and Etihad

[johnsonrod]

Didn't anyone read the big thread about 5th freedom rights and Emirates' application to fly Milan-JFK? Like, passengers buying tickets on Emirates on the JFK-Milan sector and not going through Dubai?

Now that is a good point.

If that starts to happen more frequently with more popular US destinations connected then the Euro business will be more difficult for US carriers... For now I think most business travel is tied to loyalty programs but that could change if the service is so much worse on US carriers in comparison. I seem to recall Emirates used to have flights from Hamburg to the US and Qatar had flights from Geneva to the US. In that case, perhaps they would be more of a threat! Fortunately EK is not a global alliance member YET. If that were to happen then fliers could preserve their FF points and choose EK more frequently if they get to keep their points...

 

[General Lee]

Didn't anyone read the big thread about 5th freedom rights and Emirates' application to fly Milan-JFK? Like, passengers buying tickets on Emirates on the JFK-Milan sector and not going through Dubai?

Emirates failed on the Hamburg to JFK route with virtually no competition, and Milan to JFK has tons of competition, AA/DL/UA (EWR)/AZ. Besides that, there is not a lot of ramp space at JFK for lots of new flights. Doubtful it will be successful.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[fareview]

GL,

The conjecture on JFK at the moment is we need a 3rd flight as the two 380's are oversold every day - you cannot get on these flights as staff unless missed connections. Additionally the 777 has a lot of cargo capacity which EK have traded for the premium pax on the 380.

A dedicated 777F will start NY soon.

By connecting via Milan, a High Net Worth city with loyalty towards EK (3 full flights a day to DXB) the Italian corporate customer will pick quality of service (EK would be unmatched on this sector). In total we have 7 flight a day to Italy - in the premium cabins we carry a lot of luxury/fin/manufacturing execs to the Far East - all Skywards hungry. In the economy section - take Pak/Bangladesh/India - 1.6bn market (that we are all over)with large footprint in US.

So goes the speculation. With HAM EK did not have the EU loyalty & footprint that we now have. One area where we are recognized is our 'route intel' division. Our guys are well informed.

fv

 

[johnsonrod]

GL,

The conjecture on JFK at the moment is we need a 3rd flight as the two 380's are oversold every day - you cannot get on these flights as staff unless missed connections. Additionally the 777 has a lot of cargo capacity which EK have traded for the premium pax on the 380.

A dedicated 777F will start NY soon.

By connecting via Milan, a High Net Worth city with loyalty towards EK (3 full flights a day to DXB) the Italian corporate customer will pick quality of service (EK would be unmatched on this sector). In total we have 7 flight a day to Italy - in the premium cabins we carry a lot of luxury/fin/manufacturing execs to the Far East - all Skywards hungry. In the economy section - take Pak/Bangladesh/India - 1.6bn market (that we are all over)with large footprint in US.

So goes the speculation. With HAM EK did not have the EU loyalty & footprint that we now have. One area where we are recognized is our 'route intel' division. Our guys are well informed.

fv

I recall Tim Clark of Emirates stating he wants double daily A380s on all US routes. That's a lot of seats! Sounds like JFK could use 2-3 more daily A380s. I think EK already operates 5 A380s daily between Heathrow and Dubai!

 

[Freight Dog]

If US airlines were "state sponsored", and didn't have to deal with pesky labor laws, have unions outlawed, could fire anyone they didn't like, got fuel at government subsidized rate, low landing fees at the home hub,..............I'm sure the US airlines could "step up its game".

The fact is, at the end of the day you work for a quasi government entity in a foreign land where they hate US citizens.

For me, I'm a proud American who believes in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I'll keep my family right here in the best country in the world.

Just curious, when did you interview and got declined by Emirates?

I'm an American who lives in Dubai. I don't hide my nationality. Quite the opposite, I'm a proud American who celebrates all US holidays here and sharing the joy with friends of other nationalities: Emirati, Russian, Moroccan, Lebanese, French, Brit, Aussie, Lebanese, Syrian, Mexican, Spanish, Brazilian.... (probably missing a few).

My experience here has been that people tend to hate a$$holes regardless of nationality. However, no one has given me any grief over my nationality. I respect others, they respect me... it's funny how that goes.

I also can't help but laugh when ALPA speaks of foreign threats to ALPA pilot employment. That's one advantage that US airlines have over their foreign competitors - pilot labor costs are far lower. Lots of irony in ALPA's statement.

 

[8sugarsugar]

Emirates failed on the Hamburg to JFK route with virtually no competition, and Milan to JFK has tons of competition, AA/DL/UA (EWR)/AZ. Besides that, there is not a lot of ramp space at JFK for lots of new flights. Doubtful it will be successful.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hamburg-JFK was not a 5th freedom flight, No one could buy a ticket in JFK and get off in Hamburg.

it was not successful for several reasons. Mostly inconvenience.

5th freedom JFK-Milan operated by Emirates will be widely successful (if approved)

 

[whymeworry?]

Or.... you could just not got to the UAE.

That place sucks. I lived there for a couple of years. I don't miss it and I never go back to visit friends despite repeated invites. I've got better things to do with my time. Don't get me wrong, it's worth seeing once, or twice, but the oversell as an exciting destination, well... it's just that, too much hype for mostly nothing.

Go over to www.pprune.org and see how much the EK pilots complain. Occasionally I'll remind them it's their own fault for signing up with a non-union carrier in a country with no labor laws. They don't like to hear that slant. I have zero sympathy for their pilots when they find themselves in a compromising situation with mgmt or the local gov't.

Sure you'll make WB skipper in a few short years, and sure you'll fly with some young FAs, but once that honeymoon is over you have to live with the fact that you'll never get a lot of time off (save for once a year vacation) and, for fk sake, if you can't meet women outside this profession, then you need a new game. For me, the whole young FA thing, while I'd prefer it over our 70-90 yr old FAs in the US, means absolutely nothing once I'm off-duty. No matter how hot they may be, I never party with FAs from work (we actually have quite a few young ones at my airline) merely due to our overly litigious society, and I certainly watch what I say when I'm on the aircraft. Like it or not, we as pilots are a target, and often times when an accusation is made, we're guilty until proven innocent. Just ask anyone who has been down that road. EK is no different.

 

[8sugarsugar]

Now that is a good point.

If that starts to happen more frequently with more popular US destinations connected then the Euro business will be more difficult for US carriers... For now I think most business travel is tied to loyalty programs but that could change if the service is so much worse on US carriers in comparison. I seem to recall Emirates used to have flights from Hamburg to the US and Qatar had flights from Geneva to the US. In that case, perhaps they would be more of a threat! Fortunately EK is not a global alliance member YET. If that were to happen then fliers could preserve their FF points and choose EK more frequently if they get to keep their points...

The fact Emirates has stayed away from global alliances have been their strength. When they want to add/remove seats, add new destinations, they have enough red tape to clear without having Delta or Lufthansa having a say.

 

[Raoul Duke]

Every friend of mine working for Emirates loves it and never plans to come back ---

 

[Full of LUV]

How is Ch 11 much different from state subsidies?

Just one point, but CH 11 is not government money, it's a process/set of laws by which the BK court takes control of the situation and allows the creditors to meet and decide the ultimate fate of the debtor.
A company cannot just "shed billions in debt" without proving that it essence it will be out of business without concessions.
With labor unions and contracts, the only process that the law has to amend them if one side is actually unable to meet their obligations is a trip to BK court. There they rework labor and supplier contracts.

State subsidies means that the state (government) pays for certain expenses or at least does not tax for certain services like running airports etc, that allow a business to run in a more favorable environment, even a business that purportedly is making coin hand over foot.
I actually have no knowledge of EK's access to state subsidies, but I have flown on them and either due to rapid growth or high pay, or sourcing from around the world, they have been able to hire cabin staff that are multilingual, nice and not to shabby to look at.

I suspect the EK forbids the formation of unions, but I don't know. So in the spirit of this is the best job I can get, many of their employees seem content, but I suspect it is not a lifestyle that everyone could get used to.
LUV

 

[Full of LUV]

Every friend of mine working for Emirates loves it and never plans to come back ---

Many of my friends in 2000 LOVED UAL and never planned on leaving for another airline either...... just saying.

 

[Andy]

5th freedom JFK-Milan operated by Emirates will be widely successful (if approved)

Not likely. Emirates is stepping into the middle of a p1ssing contest between US and Italian authorities. Besides, as I stated previously, JFK-MXP doesn't meet the criteria to grant 5th Freedom rights.

http://www.eckertseamans.com/file/pdf/alerts/AviationAlertMarch2013.pdf

DOT CRACKS DOWN ON DISCRIMINATORY ITALIAN AIRPORT FEES
​

For some time, airport authorities in Italy have charged carriers that operate flights within the European Union one set of fees and carriers that operate flights to and from points outside the European Union a different, higher, set of fees. On March 15, 2013, DOT issued a tentative finding that this method of imposing user charges “constitute an unjustifiable or unreasonable discriminatory, predatory, or anticompetitive practice against U.S. air carriers and impose an unjustifiable or unreasonable restriction on access of U.S. air carriers to the Italy market; violate Article 12 of the U.S.-EU Air Transport Agreement; and warrant remedial action under the International Air Transportation Fair Competitive Practices Act (IATFCPA).” DOT Order 2013-3-1.

Because DOT has found the Italian system of airport user charges violates the U.S.-EU Air Transport Agreement, it has determined the appropriate response is to impose operational restrictions on Alitalia - Compagnia Aerea Italiana S.p.A. (Alitalia) in an attempt to bring about the elimination of the differentiated fee system in Italy. Should the Department finalize its tentative findings, it intends to preclude Alitalia from engaging in “any or all services (on-line, interline or codeshare) between any point or points in Italy, via any intermediate point in the EU, and any point or points in the United States.”

Interested parties have seven days to respond. All responses should be filed with the Department in Docket DOT-OST-2013-0038 or by mail to: Docket Operations, M-30, West Building Ground Floor,Room W12-140, 1200 New Jersey Avenue, SE, Washington, DC, 20590.​

 

[General Lee]

Ohhhhh snap! Don't tell 8Sugarsugar that Andy! Sorry, the Sandpit is just that. I talked to an Emirates 777 Capt in DUS that left DL just after 9-11 and the furloughs that followed. He actually quit DL, and he regretted it. He said the job was stressful and he was tired of DXB. It's definitely not for everyone.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Varmint]

Many of my friends in 2000 LOVED UAL and never planned on leaving for another airline either...... just saying.

Most pilots would never have considered working at Southwest until 2003 when the downturn hit the other majors.

 

[Varmint]

Not likely. Emirates is stepping into the middle of a p1ssing contest between US and Italian authorities. Besides, as I stated previously, JFK-MXP doesn't meet the criteria to grant 5th Freedom rights.

http://www.eckertseamans.com/file/pdf/alerts/AviationAlertMarch2013.pdf

There is a reason why we are both just pilots and not in upper management making routing decisions at a major international carrier. What you think or stated earlier has no bearing on an application that the airline has already made. Maybe the EK planners will decide they were wrong because Andy on flightinfo said so.

 

[Andy]

There is a reason why we are both just pilots and not in upper management making routing decisions at a major international carrier. What you think or stated earlier has no bearing on an application that the airline has already made. Maybe the EK planners will decide they were wrong because Andy on flightinfo said so.

Maybe the US DOT will grant 5th Freedom Rights to EK. Question (and this is relevent): When was the last time the US granted 5th Freedom Rights?
I'd ask the followup; which foreign carriers have 5th Freedom Rights in the US (there are a few), but the first question should quell your belief that EK planners are infallible. The second question would merely confirm that EK has no 5th Freedom Rights in the US.

And now that you're living in that part of the world, remember that Andy doesn't matter. Everything's 'allah wills it'. allah willed it that you'd be flying out of a sh1thole in the desert, not that you'd fly in the US.

 

[sniper]

I enjoyed this part of ALPAs blurb -

"Furthermore, the U.A.E. airlines do not need to adhere to labor relations rules comparable to those that govern our domestic carriers"

I'd rather work for Emirates than any of the sweatshop regional carriers, and some of the big carriers that ALPA represents.

Then give us your name so we can remove your application from the Legacy airlines.

 

[sniper]

Most pilots would never have considered working at Southwest until 2003 when the downturn hit the other majors.

Did SWA turned you down after you bought your type on the 737?

 

[Varmint]

Did SWA turned you down after you bought your type on the 737?

You have an A320 type....does that mean that you bought it?

 

[Varmint]

Maybe the US DOT will grant 5th Freedom Rights to EK. Question (and this is relevent): When was the last time the US granted 5th Freedom Rights?
I'd ask the followup; which foreign carriers have 5th Freedom Rights in the US (there are a few), but the first question should quell your belief that EK planners are infallible. The second question would merely confirm that EK has no 5th Freedom Rights in the US.

And now that you're living in that part of the world, remember that Andy doesn't matter. Everything's 'allah wills it'. allah willed it that you'd be flying out of a sh1thole in the desert, not that you'd fly in the US.

Your questions are not worth entertaining because you are a bigot.

I fly in the US all the time. At least here, I don't have to fly with people like you.