ALPA fails at JB

[Blue Dude]

When is "next time around"? Who will represent us? With what financial backing? Don't you realize that even if ALPA did us wrong we'd still at least have an agent that we could fire and replace... on their dime, not ours? Now we have exactly nothing, and nobody is going to waste their time and money trying to organize this limp-wristed, Goldilocks pilot group again.

 

[$$$4nothin]

So this might be a long shot or crazy thinking for a FI post. It is a possibility that the company will see how close the vote was, and realize that makeing our QOL better through the DR will be much cheaper than haveing a union voted in a year from now. There for addressing all the issues that we have and makeing our QOL better. As much as nobody on FI wants to admit it, this might be a big turning point for us and the company. Just a crazy idea that the company might do the right thing here. JB has kind of been known for doing the right thing and fixing there mistakes over the years. A happy pilot group=happy customers=happy investors. I think Dave Barger understands this cocept.

 

[Blue Dude]

Bull$hit. How long have you been here? Were you even working here during the last vote? This time around they didn't even bother with the "We've heard you" and "Give us another chance" lines. That's because last time around they made certain promises regarding "workarounds", "transparency", and "process", all of which were either ignored, watered down, or forgotten when the threat of a vote had passed. The one accomplishment of any note - the 2009 pay raise - was followed by a process of keeping us "average" in pay, though the process was never defined, voted on, approved by pilots, or as far as I know, even written down. Result: "de minimus" pay raise skipped, the 2010 pay scale calculated in 2011, retro forgotten, then reinstated when the word got out during a card campaign, still no word on 2011 or 2012. And pay is the easiest item to adjust. Retirement, M&A, benefits? We can expect nothing, and we'll probably get it.

 

[jonjuan]

When is "next time around"? Who will represent us? With what financial backing? Don't you realize that even if ALPA did us wrong we'd still at least have an agent that we could fire and replace... on their dime, not ours? Now we have exactly nothing, and nobody is going to waste their time and money trying to organize this limp-wristed, Goldilocks pilot group again.

Love the gay bashing.

 

[Blue Dude]

Love the gay bashing.

Not intended to be a gay reference. Would "weak sisters" work better for you? How about simply pouting children who won't do anything until mommy makes it just right?

 

[Lake Alice]

We were talking about M&A. I'm telling you that ALPA doesn't appear to help. Here's a list of recent wins that ALPA has been a part of;

1. USAIR and Am West. - Disaster

2. TWA and American. - Sued and Convicted of DFR

3. AirTran and SWA. - Steamrolled and on the verge of a staple

4. CAL and United - Jury is still out. Not looking rosy.

You must be a member of Jetblue management because you share their ability to spin the truth. Let's clarify for the kids at home:

1. USAIR and Am West. An arbitrator made the decision. The USair MEC pushed for date of hire. The mediator, who was also the arbitrator, specifically told the USair MEC that straight date of hire was an unachievable goal. ALPA national made it very clear that asking for date of hire was not an acceptable goal between two ALPA carriers. Ultimately the MEC had the final decision.

2. TWA and American. TWA's ultimate integration was 8-1 and ended up with a 52% staple. Jetblue's current PEA guarantees a 50% staple. TWA was on the verge of liquidation and still accepted a 52% staple. Jetblue, who is a healthy company, would guarantee it's pilots a 50% staple.
2% difference.

3. Airtran and SWA. No where close to a staple. The list has still to be finalized but since you kain't read so good I won't bog you down with details. In the end Airtran has a right to vote no, proceed to mediation and ultimately arbitration.

4. Cal and United. Not completed and "rosy" is conjecture.

In the end Jetblue pilots voted against ALPA because of misunderstanding, hatred and spin. Conservative estimates put the range of pilots who voted in favor of the direct relationship at 5-10%.

Try and get your facts straight next time.

 

[waveflyer]

True about Glass-Steagal, along with NAFTA and all the other tactics that have been used to break the middle class and bust the unions.

That being said, ALPA sh*t their own nest for so long that I seriously doubt that it will remain a viable entity much longer. You reap what you sow.

I am curious about how the company reacts. Although the percentages imply that this was a "big" win for the company, the underlying anti-ALPA resentment and simple election math really show that this was much closer than it appears:

If 157 pilots would have voted the other way, we'd have ALPA on the property.

157 out of 2100 isn't that many to sway next time around. The company has to know this and unless certain issues get addressed, there will be a next time.

In my opinion, if the company is smart, they throw a few million $ towards the JBPA and say: "Here. Organize. We'll codify everything in the current relationship into a CBA and this headache goes away".

I'm not optiminstic, though.

The company can't help you organize or fund any form of collective bargaining:
http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html

Fourth. Organization and collective bargaining, freedom from interference by carrier, assistance in organizing or maintaining organization by carrier forbidden; deduction of dues from wages forbidden

Employees shall have the right to organize and bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing. The majority of any craft or class of employees shall have the right to determine who shall be the representative of the craft or class for the purposes of this chapter. No carrier, its officers, or agents shall deny or in any way question the right of its employees to join, organize, or assist in organizing the labor organization of their choice, and it shall be unlawful for any carrier to interfere in any way with the organization of its employees, or to use the funds of the carrier in maintaining or assisting or contributing to any labor organizabion, labor representative, or other agency of collective bargaining, or in performing any work therefor, or to influence or coerce employees in an effort to induce them to join or remain or not to join or remain members of any labor organization, or to deduct from the wages of employees any dues, fees, assessments, or other contributions payable to labor organizations, or to collect or to assist in the collection of any such dues, fees, assessments, or other contributions: Provided, That nothing in this chapter shall be construed to prohibit a carrier from permitting an employee, individually, or local representatives of employees from conferring with management during working hours without loss of time, or to prohibit a carrier from furnishing free transportation to its employees while engaged in the business of a labor organization."

ALPA is not the enemy. They aren't a 3rd party- they are an organization created in the image and likeness of our pilots and have grown too beaurocratic. Problems yes- but our responsibility-
IMO- independent unionization might work at JBlu- but probably not as effectively as alpa-

 

[spitfire1500]

Where the F' have you been? In-house was tried and failed. Now this. What's next? Teamsters? No thank you.

Actually we have Teamsters and it hasn't been so bad.

 

[MINIME]

My suggestion, get a representative body protected by the rules of the RLA. If you don't like ALPA, so be it. But do get one. Barger isn't going to give two ratts' rear ends when, and if, AMR or SWA come knocking. He will take his millions and sail away on his yacht.

You guys have a very desirable route structure that many would love to have. No airline can get enough of New York. It is the highest yielding market in the U.S..

Otherwise, I suggest you start an attorney fund right away. If a merger is in your future, at least you'll have some money to half way defend yourself. If it does not happen, at least you'll have an emergency fund.

 

[DonVerita]

Dont be ALPA sucks. they would sell you guys down the river in a NY minute.

And your suggestion for an alternative with extensive aviation experience and vast resources would be whom?

 

[DonVerita]

3. AirTran and SWA. - Steamrolled and on the verge of a staple

knock...knock,

Foot, meet mouth.

AirTran ALPA MEC voted today to REJECT the SLI agreement. Now they can move on to Federal mediation and arbitration. ALPA has been there every step of the way with a team of attorneys and outside expert counsel that specializes in M&A.

Tell me, what kind of position would a non-union carrier have been in? Or how about one with a weak non-airline union like the Teamsters?

For the record, since you don't have the facts, there was never a staple. A large group of AAI F/O's were unfairly proposed to be put near the bottom of the list, but not at the bottom. A true staple is when an entire pilot group gets put below the most junior person of another pilot group. That never happened here nor was it even proposed as it would be ILLEGAL under Bond/McCaskill.

 

[Neubyfly]

Sorry, guys. But don't give up. I remember how depressed the Colgan OC was after their first vote failed by a small margin, and a little over a year later they had a huge majority vote in favor and they were ALPA members. Keep the faith.

Didn't you pay for training AND pay to occupy the right seat at gulfstream??? Is that union activity?

 

[A350]

FWIW....IMHO, this was less an endorsement of the DR than it was a condemnation of ALPA.

I would bet a lot of money that if this second drive had been an in house union, it would have passed by a large margin.

The reason that some went to ALPA is they figured it would be easier for someone else to foot the bill. Those of us who have been ALPA before understand the concept of "no free lunch".

Starting an in house would be pretty expensive, but not out of the question. If you are such a strong supporter of a union, but the pilots don't want ALPA, the only way to a CBA and all the protections you believe you need is to open up your #$%$%^ing wallet and start another in house.

A350

 

[banger]

So this might be a long shot or crazy thinking for a FI post. It is a possibility that the company will see how close the vote was, and realize that makeing our QOL better through the DR will be much cheaper than haveing a union voted in a year from now. There for addressing all the issues that we have and makeing our QOL better. As much as nobody on FI wants to admit it, this might be a big turning point for us and the company. Just a crazy idea that the company might do the right thing here. JB has kind of been known for doing the right thing and fixing there mistakes over the years. A happy pilot group=happy customers=happy investors. I think Dave Barger understands this cocept.

I can almost guarntee you have not been here more than 2 years. If you were you would not even have suggested this.

 

[Cometman]

knock...knock,

Foot, meet mouth.

AirTran ALPA MEC voted today to REJECT the SLI agreement. Now they can move on to Federal mediation and arbitration. ALPA has been there every step of the way with a team of attorneys and outside expert counsel that specializes in M&A.

Tell me, what kind of position would a non-union carrier have been in? Or how about one with a weak non-airline union like the Teamsters?

For the record, since you don't have the facts, there was never a staple. A large group of AAI F/O's were unfairly proposed to be put near the bottom of the list, but not at the bottom. A true staple is when an entire pilot group gets put below the most junior person of another pilot group. That never happened here nor was it even proposed as it would be ILLEGAL under Bond/McCaskill.

Illegal? Where does it say that in the law?

 

[Blue Dude]

I can almost guarntee you have not been here more than 2 years. If you were you would not even have suggested this.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Turns out he's a new hire, only on the property for a month, not even out of the school house yet. Knows more than we do about how this place runs apparently. Took me more than half of my ten plus years here, so he's way smarter than I am. That's not too hard though, since I've been on the losing end of two votes now.

 

[$$$4nothin]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Turns out he's a new hire, only on the property for a month, not even out of the school house yet. Knows more than we do about how this place runs apparently. Took me more than half of my ten plus years here, so he's way smarter than I am. That's not too hard though, since I've been on the losing end of two votes now.

You are both correct. I am not out of the school house yet. I don't remember saying that I know more than anyone, or am smarter than anyone. Yes, I am hopeing for better for sure. What I do know is that there is a long way to go. I also know that with only 11 years behind us, the company knows there is a long way to go also. %90+ of all post on FI come from the very outspoken ALPA supporters and 58% of the pilot group don't completely agree with you. The vote is over, you guys don't like the outcome. I get it.
So you have a couple choices. Quit, or go work for an ALPA carrier. Either way stop bitching. Wait until the next vote and you can vote again. B6 is not going to be ALPA for at least another year so why not play with the cards delt to ya and make the best of it.
I was looking forward to welcomeing in ALPA, but it didnt work out like that so lets all do what we can with what weve got.

 

[mejorgy]

You are both correct. I am not out of the school house yet. I don't remember saying that I know more than anyone, or am smarter than anyone. Yes, I am hopeing for better for sure. What I do know is that there is a long way to go. I also know that with only 11 years behind us, the company knows there is a long way to go also. %90+ of all post on FI come from the very outspoken ALPA supporters and 58% of the pilot group don't completely agree with you. The vote is over, you guys don't like the outcome. I get it.
So you have a couple choices. Quit, or go work for an ALPA carrier. Either way stop bitching. Wait until the next vote and you can vote again. B6 is not going to be ALPA for at least another year so why not play with the cards delt to ya and make the best of it.
I was looking forward to welcomeing in ALPA, but it didnt work out like that so lets all do what we can with what weve got.

4nothin........... Barnes and Noble..... Websters Dictionary would be helpful!

None of our Blue Brother Comrades are bitching!!! This election was predicated on the failures of the direct relationship model crammed down our throats. You are new here..... You have not felt the sting yet!!!!

 

[xrated]

.......

 

[xrated]

No, and I don't think ALPA is the only way to get a CBA .... Right ?

Very true!! Take USAPA for example. They've done a great job of getting a CBA done....OOOOPS!!