ALPA fails at JB

[Fins Up]

It sure wasn't for TWA.

I believe ALPA of today knows the 'old ALPA' screwed the TWA guys but, due to the magnitude of the possible award to those pilots, they're not going to say so. I hope the TWA guys get what's coming to them. Sounds like they were done wrong in the worst way.

However, one has to believe that with new laws in place and the likes of the old ALPA leadership gone that that sort of thing won't happen these days. No way to tell until something like that actually does happen again I guess.

I'm no ALPA expert, or even an ALPA member unfortunately, so this is all opinion and speculation.

 

[Bringupthebird]

We were talking about M&A. I'm telling you that ALPA doesn't appear to help. Here's a list of recent wins that ALPA has been a part of;

1. USAIR and Am West. - Disaster

2. TWA and American. - Sued and Convicted of DFR

3. AirTran and SWA. - Steamrolled and on the verge of a staple

4. CAL and United - Jury is still out. Not looking rosy.

How about DAL/NWA?

US/HP had nothing to do with ALPA's action. It was their inaction in not consolidating both MEC's and Prater signing the joint contract cementing the NIC. After that the east could do what it wanted.

 

[kommutrdog]

Ah yes- the airline pilots of the US- militantly anti-union, while collectively bargaining. Just dumb. The only thing getting steamrolled is the middle class as republicans and tea baggers continue to take up for billionaires at the expense of the middle class.
Amazing.

Dude,

It's the BANKERS that are screwing the middle class. The whole "Ds vs Rs" is a charade straight out of the banker's cabal playbook to keep proles like you and I arguing amongst ourselves while they bend us over.

Q: Where did Tim Geithner work before being appointed Treasury Sec?
Q: Where did Hank Paulson work before being appointed Treasury Sec?
Q: Who originially appointed Bernanke?
Q: Who orininally appointed Greenspan?
Q: Who re-appointed Greenspan?

Answer these questions and you will see that the whole "Blue vs Red" meme is friggin theater to keep us distracted.

How old were you when you found out that "Federal Reserve Notes" are NOT issued by the US govt, but rather by a PRIVATE bank?

 

[waveflyer]

I don't wholly disagree- Clinton signed the repeal of glass-steagal- but there is one party in particular that has blocked funding of frank-Dodd - there is one party that refuses to see value in regulating banks and creates this free for all in the banking industry-
But these are details - there is also one party that represents anti-union airline pilots.... And we all know who that is.
We disenfranchise ourselves.
We are enemy #1 for R's- the overpaid union worker. And republicans have waged war on our career for a decade and so many still vote for them. Utterly freaking stupid. Dems don't necessarily care about us bc we don't vote for them, but they don't actively screw us bc anti-union actions on the part of a dem annoys their base.
I'll take apathy on our issues over aggression.

Jblu's problem is ALL of our problem- too many are so ideologically drawn to conservatism that we forgot that unions got this career to where it was.

 

[Smarta$$]

Ah yes- the airline pilots of the US- militantly anti-union, while collectively bargaining. Just dumb. The only thing getting steamrolled is the middle class as republicans and tea baggers continue to take up for billionaires at the expense of the middle class.
Your CEO has representation AND a contract, but the 2000 pilots of JETBLU don't....
Amazing.

This is the truth.

 

[Smarta$$]

I don't wholly disagree- Clinton signed the repeal of glass-steagal- but there is one party in particular that has blocked funding of frank-Dodd - there is one party that refuses to see value in regulating banks and creates this free for all in the banking industry-
But these are details - there is also one party that represents anti-union airline pilots.... And we all know who that is.
We disenfranchise ourselves.
We are enemy #1 for R's- the overpaid union worker. And republicans have waged war on our career for a decade and so many still vote for them. Utterly freaking stupid. Dems don't necessarily care about us bc we don't vote for them, but they don't actively screw us bc anti-union actions on the part of a dem annoys their base.
I'll take apathy on our issues over aggression.

Jblu's problem is ALL of our problem- too many are so ideologically drawn to conservatism that we forgot that unions got this career to where it was.

Again, true.

 

[glasspilot1]

Why did they not pass it? Simply put, because there are a LOT of the original B6 guys were furloughed USAir and UAL pilots who blame their furlough on ALPA.

Also a lot of former TWA at Jet Blue. ALPA is going to hurt from throwing us under the bus for years to come.

 

[airjackson]

How about DAL/NWA?

While recently jumpseating on a DAL flight, had a DAL Capt tell me that "as an ALPA member, he needed to urge me to vote in ALPA, of course, he planned on voting them out at DAL as soon as he could" His words, not mine.

 

[$$$4nothin]

After many years at JB I feel like I'm driving a Ferrari with no insurance. Get in an accident? Too bad. Lose your eyesight due to sharks with frickin' laser beams? Tough luck.

I'm making a good living right now at JB, but God help me if my health poops out or we get bought/merged. That Ferrari goes bye-bye and I'm stuck begging for rides with some crack head who's driving his Dad's Yugo.

The outcome of this vote stinks.

GP

Well apparently %58 would rather drive a Ferrari with no insurance, than a yugo with insurance. I personally would prefer a $5000 '93 Wrangler on supper swampers with insurance than a Ferrari without it. But hey to each his own. Drive safe.
As far as a M/A goes, why does everyone think a staple will happen. When was the last time a staple occured? TWA I believe. The laws regarding a staple have changed. A staple will not happen again. (knock on wood)
Also with every major retireing 3000-7000 guys in the next 10 years even a staple wouldn't mean the end of the world. Yes it would be horrible and not what anybody wants, but not the end of the world.
This industry is not and will never be a stable 30 year career for most. Pay off all your debt, be super flexible, and you will be fine. Have you ever met a guy with no debt and no kids that was angry with life? I havn't

 

[airbaker]

Well apparently %58 would rather drive a Ferrari with no insurance, than a yugo with insurance. I personally would prefer a $5000 '93 Wrangler on supper swampers with insurance than a Ferrari without it. But hey to each his own. Drive safe.
As far as a M/A goes, why does everyone think a staple will happen. When was the last time a staple occured? TWA I believe. The laws regarding a staple have changed. A staple will not happen again. (knock on wood)
Also with every major retireing 3000-7000 guys in the next 10 years even a staple wouldn't mean the end of the world. Yes it would be horrible and not what anybody wants, but not the end of the world.
This industry is not and will never be a stable 30 year career for most. Pay off all your debt, be super flexible, and you will be fine. Have you ever met a guy with no debt and no kids that was angry with life? I havn't

Great....so someday if you ever get married or have a kid (look, I'm sure your German Shepard is great, but it'll never compare to having your own kid) you'll understand why many of us are disappointed and nervous for the future.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

The most miserable group of pilots ever assembled.

Also, the only time in my career I've been embarrassed to wear a uniform.

Absolutely correct. The 'reasons' for being a no vote that I have heard is truly stunning.... embarassed is putting it very mildly.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

While recently jumpseating on a DAL flight, had a DAL Capt tell me that "as an ALPA member, he needed to urge me to vote in ALPA, of course, he planned on voting them out at DAL as soon as he could" His words, not mine.

That's because he knows how important representation is in this profession. He knew you had a choice between the current "DR" (zero representation) or having the opportunity to collectively negotiate a CBA with proper representation (in this case with ALPA). DAL has over 10,000 pilots who operate under a CBA with proper representation. SOME of their pilots may want different representation, but ALL of their pilots would rather have their current form of representation over a "DR." Next time you are on a DAL flight, I urge you to ask both pilots if they would perfer to go unrepresented or have ALPA on the property.

DAL is also in a much better position to form an in-house union (if it ever gets a majority vote) because they have 10,000 pilots already operating under a CBA. JetBlue has 2200 pilots and no CBA. This isn't rocket science. It's business. Ask your ELT who negotiated their contracts. Their third party representatives did. Why? Because they "get it"......93% of the domestic airline pilots in this country "get it".....hopefully some day the remaining 1193 bluejet pilots will "get it" before it's too late!

As pilots, we are the managers of our profession. From a business journal.......

"A manager must be able to separate emotion from a given business situation. Making decisions based on emotion or sentiment can lead to bad results. And reacting to situations emotionally rather than reacting based on logic and facts can do lasting damage to employee, vendor or customer relationships."

 

[B6Busdriver]

While recently jumpseating on a DAL flight, had a DAL Capt tell me that "as an ALPA member, he needed to urge me to vote in ALPA, of course, he planned on voting them out at DAL as soon as he could" His words, not mine.

What you failed to realize is this vote was about representation vs no representation. The DAL pilot wants to trade one union for another, not trade for the Direct Relationship. When you wake up and realize the DR is a fraud then you will have a moment of clarity.

 

[johnsonrod]

It's like skydiving with no reserve parachute - and you packed the original yourself for the first time.... Not good.

I can't wait to see what bones Barger throws your way...

 

[coogebeachhotel]

One divided house. That is for sure. Management loves division.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Barger isn't throwing any bones. He doesn't have to.

 

[kommutrdog]

I don't wholly disagree- Clinton signed the repeal of glass-steagal- but there is one party in particular that has blocked funding of frank-Dodd - there is one party that refuses to see value in regulating banks and creates this free for all in the banking industry-
But these are details - there is also one party that represents anti-union airline pilots.... And we all know who that is.

True about Glass-Steagal, along with NAFTA and all the other tactics that have been used to break the middle class and bust the unions.

That being said, ALPA sh*t their own nest for so long that I seriously doubt that it will remain a viable entity much longer. You reap what you sow.

I am curious about how the company reacts. Although the percentages imply that this was a "big" win for the company, the underlying anti-ALPA resentment and simple election math really show that this was much closer than it appears:

If 157 pilots would have voted the other way, we'd have ALPA on the property.

157 out of 2100 isn't that many to sway next time around. The company has to know this and unless certain issues get addressed, there will be a next time.

In my opinion, if the company is smart, they throw a few million $ towards the JBPA and say: "Here. Organize. We'll codify everything in the current relationship into a CBA and this headache goes away".

I'm not optiminstic, though.

 

[PCL_128]

Sorry, guys. But don't give up. I remember how depressed the Colgan OC was after their first vote failed by a small margin, and a little over a year later they had a huge majority vote in favor and they were ALPA members. Keep the faith.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Sorry, guys. But don't give up. I remember how depressed the Colgan OC was after their first vote failed by a small margin, and a little over a year later they had a huge majority vote in favor and they were ALPA members. Keep the faith.

Thanks!!!!!

 

[kommutrdog]

ALPA = DOA

For the record, I believe we are in need of a CBA. But ALPA...err, ah...lemme think....NO.

You can thank Duane Woerth and his ilk for the wake trail of distrust and accrimony which ALPA has carry around its neck like a millstone.

This vote was not a resounding "pro company" vote. If we change the minds of 157 pilots next time around, then we would end up with representation.

157 pilots is all that is required.

157. I'm interested to see how the company reacts. Will they "get it"? I'm not optimistic.

 

[Blue Dude]

When is "next time around"? Who will represent us? With what financial backing? Don't you realize that even if ALPA did us wrong we'd still at least have an agent that we could fire and replace... on their dime, not ours? Now we have exactly nothing, and nobody is going to waste their time and money trying to organize this limp-wristed, Goldilocks pilot group again.

 

[$$$4nothin]

So this might be a long shot or crazy thinking for a FI post. It is a possibility that the company will see how close the vote was, and realize that makeing our QOL better through the DR will be much cheaper than haveing a union voted in a year from now. There for addressing all the issues that we have and makeing our QOL better. As much as nobody on FI wants to admit it, this might be a big turning point for us and the company. Just a crazy idea that the company might do the right thing here. JB has kind of been known for doing the right thing and fixing there mistakes over the years. A happy pilot group=happy customers=happy investors. I think Dave Barger understands this cocept.

 

[Blue Dude]

Bull$hit. How long have you been here? Were you even working here during the last vote? This time around they didn't even bother with the "We've heard you" and "Give us another chance" lines. That's because last time around they made certain promises regarding "workarounds", "transparency", and "process", all of which were either ignored, watered down, or forgotten when the threat of a vote had passed. The one accomplishment of any note - the 2009 pay raise - was followed by a process of keeping us "average" in pay, though the process was never defined, voted on, approved by pilots, or as far as I know, even written down. Result: "de minimus" pay raise skipped, the 2010 pay scale calculated in 2011, retro forgotten, then reinstated when the word got out during a card campaign, still no word on 2011 or 2012. And pay is the easiest item to adjust. Retirement, M&A, benefits? We can expect nothing, and we'll probably get it.

 

[jonjuan]

When is "next time around"? Who will represent us? With what financial backing? Don't you realize that even if ALPA did us wrong we'd still at least have an agent that we could fire and replace... on their dime, not ours? Now we have exactly nothing, and nobody is going to waste their time and money trying to organize this limp-wristed, Goldilocks pilot group again.

Love the gay bashing.

 

[Blue Dude]

Love the gay bashing.

Not intended to be a gay reference. Would "weak sisters" work better for you? How about simply pouting children who won't do anything until mommy makes it just right?

 

[Lake Alice]

We were talking about M&A. I'm telling you that ALPA doesn't appear to help. Here's a list of recent wins that ALPA has been a part of;

1. USAIR and Am West. - Disaster

2. TWA and American. - Sued and Convicted of DFR

3. AirTran and SWA. - Steamrolled and on the verge of a staple

4. CAL and United - Jury is still out. Not looking rosy.

You must be a member of Jetblue management because you share their ability to spin the truth. Let's clarify for the kids at home:

1. USAIR and Am West. An arbitrator made the decision. The USair MEC pushed for date of hire. The mediator, who was also the arbitrator, specifically told the USair MEC that straight date of hire was an unachievable goal. ALPA national made it very clear that asking for date of hire was not an acceptable goal between two ALPA carriers. Ultimately the MEC had the final decision.

2. TWA and American. TWA's ultimate integration was 8-1 and ended up with a 52% staple. Jetblue's current PEA guarantees a 50% staple. TWA was on the verge of liquidation and still accepted a 52% staple. Jetblue, who is a healthy company, would guarantee it's pilots a 50% staple.
2% difference.

3. Airtran and SWA. No where close to a staple. The list has still to be finalized but since you kain't read so good I won't bog you down with details. In the end Airtran has a right to vote no, proceed to mediation and ultimately arbitration.

4. Cal and United. Not completed and "rosy" is conjecture.

In the end Jetblue pilots voted against ALPA because of misunderstanding, hatred and spin. Conservative estimates put the range of pilots who voted in favor of the direct relationship at 5-10%.

Try and get your facts straight next time.

 

[waveflyer]

True about Glass-Steagal, along with NAFTA and all the other tactics that have been used to break the middle class and bust the unions.

That being said, ALPA sh*t their own nest for so long that I seriously doubt that it will remain a viable entity much longer. You reap what you sow.

I am curious about how the company reacts. Although the percentages imply that this was a "big" win for the company, the underlying anti-ALPA resentment and simple election math really show that this was much closer than it appears:

If 157 pilots would have voted the other way, we'd have ALPA on the property.

157 out of 2100 isn't that many to sway next time around. The company has to know this and unless certain issues get addressed, there will be a next time.

In my opinion, if the company is smart, they throw a few million $ towards the JBPA and say: "Here. Organize. We'll codify everything in the current relationship into a CBA and this headache goes away".

I'm not optiminstic, though.

The company can't help you organize or fund any form of collective bargaining:
http://www.nmb.gov/documents/rla.html

Fourth. Organization and collective bargaining, freedom from interference by carrier, assistance in organizing or maintaining organization by carrier forbidden; deduction of dues from wages forbidden

Employees shall have the right to organize and bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing. The majority of any craft or class of employees shall have the right to determine who shall be the representative of the craft or class for the purposes of this chapter. No carrier, its officers, or agents shall deny or in any way question the right of its employees to join, organize, or assist in organizing the labor organization of their choice, and it shall be unlawful for any carrier to interfere in any way with the organization of its employees, or to use the funds of the carrier in maintaining or assisting or contributing to any labor organizabion, labor representative, or other agency of collective bargaining, or in performing any work therefor, or to influence or coerce employees in an effort to induce them to join or remain or not to join or remain members of any labor organization, or to deduct from the wages of employees any dues, fees, assessments, or other contributions payable to labor organizations, or to collect or to assist in the collection of any such dues, fees, assessments, or other contributions: Provided, That nothing in this chapter shall be construed to prohibit a carrier from permitting an employee, individually, or local representatives of employees from conferring with management during working hours without loss of time, or to prohibit a carrier from furnishing free transportation to its employees while engaged in the business of a labor organization."

ALPA is not the enemy. They aren't a 3rd party- they are an organization created in the image and likeness of our pilots and have grown too beaurocratic. Problems yes- but our responsibility-
IMO- independent unionization might work at JBlu- but probably not as effectively as alpa-

 

[spitfire1500]

Where the F' have you been? In-house was tried and failed. Now this. What's next? Teamsters? No thank you.

Actually we have Teamsters and it hasn't been so bad.

 

[MINIME]

My suggestion, get a representative body protected by the rules of the RLA. If you don't like ALPA, so be it. But do get one. Barger isn't going to give two ratts' rear ends when, and if, AMR or SWA come knocking. He will take his millions and sail away on his yacht.

You guys have a very desirable route structure that many would love to have. No airline can get enough of New York. It is the highest yielding market in the U.S..

Otherwise, I suggest you start an attorney fund right away. If a merger is in your future, at least you'll have some money to half way defend yourself. If it does not happen, at least you'll have an emergency fund.

 

[DonVerita]

Dont be ALPA sucks. they would sell you guys down the river in a NY minute.

And your suggestion for an alternative with extensive aviation experience and vast resources would be whom?