Alpa at Flex?

[V1 Rotate]

Do you really think flight info is the best place for a serious question V1?

Go to the 1108 site, but honestly. Do your own research outside of any Internet chat room.

Always best policy.

Yeah, I know I ask way too much when trying to get answers here but a lot of people read this board and the material posted here could help get them to thinking, too. I've been reading all day. Hence the question on the previous page.

 

[Flex605]

I want to say that alpa can be put on the ballot if they decide to come . In the meantime lets all join together and preserve what we have left which is not much

 

[Praetorian]

Serious question: What exactly is the Teamsters merger policy? I ask because under Sections 3 and 13 of Allegheny-Mohawk, there are are provisions that allow for nonrepresented or other union represented groups to negotiate on their behalf. I can't find anywhere in the FLOPs contract, particularly in Section 1, that lays out how an SLI would be forged if both groups were represented by the 1108. Only that integration would be determined by current Teamsters policy, which is what I'm trying to figure out. If it says "staple them to the bottom," then obviously we don't want that and need to know that up front before we vote you guys in. Or, if it lays out a plan, or plans, then at least we'd know up front if those plans were acceptable should an SLI occur. If the majority of us don't like the 1108's merger policy, then we might want to consider representing ourselves (which we have our legal right to do so according to the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs) or hiring someone else. This isn't a pro-ALPA post, just making the point. So, can someone explain in plain English how the lists would be integrated if wer're both represented by Teamsters?

Your question was asked, answered and discussed here:

http://[email protected]/

 

[V1 Rotate]

"If we can’t reach a negotiated agreement on seniority integration, then McCaskill-Bond says a neutral arbitrator must issue a decision on integration that is “fair and equitable.” There is no single methodology under the “fair and equitable” standard and arbitrators consider a variety of factors. Most importantly, all of the evidence and ideas in that arbitration will be presented by each pilot group’s merger committee to show what they believe is “fair and equitable,” including, but not limited to, the career expectations of each pilot group."

I assume you're talking about this? If so, fair enough. If not, please elaborate.

 

[cougar12]

"If we can?t reach a negotiated agreement on seniority integration, then McCaskill-Bond says a neutral arbitrator must issue a decision on integration that is ?fair and equitable.? There is no single methodology under the ?fair and equitable? standard and arbitrators consider a variety of factors. Most importantly, all of the evidence and ideas in that arbitration will be presented by each pilot group?s merger committee to show what they believe is ?fair and equitable,? including, but not limited to, the career expectations of each pilot group."

I assume you're talking about this? If so, fair enough. If not, please elaborate.

I think that's about right!
I know a lot of Flight Options pilots expected Gulfstreams and Legacy 450/500 aircraft since Kenn has been promising them ever since he has been back and now he has announced Flex is getting them you guys have the same expectation. This equals division and was planned by the Architect himself.
Now enter the Red Herring!
That's another reason we are suspicious of the Red Label program and what it means for the future of Flex Jet.
Remember the end game is One Sky with just brand names with one employee group that can be moved around as the market dictates or Kenn dictates. We are all One sky employees.
I think the best thing we can do is get our two represenitive groups together and work it out. Sooner rather than later because I think the only winner will be Kenn the longer we stay divided.

 

[The Architect]

Not me!

This equals division and was planned by the Architect himself.

Hey!!! Not me!

Please clarify. You mean KR.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Not superior to you or anyone else. Just trying to have dialogue and apparently you're not interested in that. Are you able to respond to my last post? Btw, the dinner offer wasn't for you.

If this gentleman you are in dialogue with is a FLOPS employee, no need to buy him dinner. Uncle is buying for him.

As for dialogue, this appears to me to be a one way dialogue, with you having your mouth open and your ears closed. That, my friend, is not true dialogue. You should try to listen to what people are saying. Unless, of course, if your mind is already made up which it seems to be. In that case, why even waste your time?

 

[V1 Rotate]

If this gentleman you are in dialogue with is a FLOPS employee, no need to buy him dinner. Uncle is buying for him.

As for dialogue, this appears to me to be a one way dialogue, with you having your mouth open and your ears closed. That, my friend, is not true dialogue. You should try to listen to what people are saying. Unless, of course, if your mind is already made up which it seems to be. In that case, why even waste your time?

Everyone jumps up and down, yells and screams, "Do your research, read this, read that, etc, etc...," which I've done. So, when I have questions about the research I've done I get accused of being closed minded. One year ago I would've never had this conversation. Does that sound like closed ears to you? And just because I want to discuss something that you've already made your mind up about, that makes me a big mouth? Your post is just like all the others. Nothing constructive. Only an attack on me. I openly admit that I'm probably fighting a losing battle but at least I'm open to options. So, it seems to me that you described your own self in your last post. If you want true dialogue why don't you contribute something worthwhile to the conversation.

 

[flex*wife]

Respectfully, whether you like the IBT or not by your DO's own admissions in his email missive of yesterday it is getting almost too late to change the course of Ricci's plans. You don't have more time.

If Flex needs a union, the IBT is the only one with enough of a head start to make a difference for you. Remember, I was a fan of looking elsewhere too. But there just isn't any more time if you want to stop Ricci in his tracks. Waiting will be a detriment to you and both pilot groups.

So, V1, as much as a respect your research and questions, perhaps your best bet would be to realize the time for them was long ago. Perhaps you should volunteer for the merger committee etc... so all your studying can be put to good use.

And yes, when I say merger committee I am saying I think the vote is a done deal. Either because the cards are adequate or the fence negotiations are stalled and they will force a vote - whatever the exact reason is irrelevant since it is obvious they are going to a vote either way.

Get used to the fact a union at Flex is a reality whether you like it or not. Given that I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of history by abstaining from sending in a card. I can almost GUARANTEE you positions for things like the merger committee, CBA negotiations etc... will only be had by people shown to be interested by sending in a card.

Even if the vote is a done deal (by my estimation) you have a lot to loose if you aren't one of the ones on that card list. Not a risk I'd want to take.

Protect your position if you really care about these things, send in a card and keep your options open. That's really all a card does is keep your options open. Seems to me it would be foolish not to do that. So why is RH giving the advice to do the exact opposite?

Management is DESPERATE and even an unbiased rendering of logic when reading the emails coming out, one can see the incongruency of statements and tactics. Sounds to me like they somehow know the union must be just a few shy of that magic number. They are way too worried about letting you have a voice. Thinking about that actually just makes me downright giddy and hopeful. Y'all are FINALLY going to get what you deserve - a seat at the table, a voice in your destiny.

That leads me to another point. I've met Rick - I've talked to Rick. Do these emails and the yammer posts I've heard about even really sound like him? Don't get me wrong - I think he's writing them - but they sound like he's been told what to do. They sound desperate. And the crickets on yammer spare a few individuals is deafening... But does what he's saying and the tactics he's using even really sound at all like him? Sounds more like a man trying to keep his job.

Think about that a minute. If a guy as competent as RH is desperate why should you feel any more protected from KR than him? Or Deanna but let's not go there...

BTW - has anyone even asked whether or not Deanna has said anything about this union mess prior to her departure? I heard she was in favor of it and encouraged one of the POC members to start investigating several months ago when it became obvious she could no longer protect you guys... So, in essence, she is the reason this union question all came about. I think that - and her departure - speak volumes...

Time to send in your card V1 and just face the fact it's the only choice you really have.

Good luck to you all and don't be discouraged. Just realize it's time to get on board.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Respectfully, whether you like the IBT or not by your DO's own admissions in his email missive of yesterday it is getting almost too late to change the course of Ricci's plans. You don't have more time.

If Flex needs a union, the IBT is the only one with enough of a head start to make a difference for you. Remember, I was a fan of looking elsewhere too. But there just isn't any more time if you want to stop Ricci in his tracks. Waiting will be a detriment to you and both pilot groups.

So, V1, as much as a respect your research and questions, perhaps your best bet would be to realize the time for them was long ago. Perhaps you should volunteer for the merger committee etc... so all your studying can be put to good use.

And yes, when I say merger committee I am saying I think the vote is a done deal. Either because the cards are adequate or the fence negotiations are stalled and they will force a vote - whatever the exact reason is irrelevant since it is obvious they are going to a vote either way.

Get used to the fact a union at Flex is a reality whether you like it or not. Given that I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of history by abstaining from sending in a card. I can almost GUARANTEE you positions for things like the merger committee, CBA negotiations etc... will only be had by people shown to be interested by sending in a card.

Even if the vote is a done deal (by my estimation) you have a lot to loose if you aren't one of the ones on that card list. Not a risk I'd want to take.

Protect your position if you really care about these things, send in a card and keep your options open. That's really all a card does is keep your options open. Seems to me it would be foolish not to do that. So why is RH giving the advice to do the exact opposite?

Management is DESPERATE and even an unbiased rendering of logic when reading the emails coming out, one can see the incongruency of statements and tactics. Sounds to me like they somehow know the union must be just a few shy of that magic number. They are way too worried about letting you have a voice. Thinking about that actually just makes me downright giddy and hopeful. Y'all are FINALLY going to get what you deserve - a seat at the table, a voice in your destiny.

That leads me to another point. I've met Rick - I've talked to Rick. Do these emails and the yammer posts I've heard about even really sound like him? Don't get me wrong - I think he's writing them - but they sound like he's been told what to do. They sound desperate. And the crickets on yammer spare a few individuals is deafening... But does what he's saying and the tactics he's using even really sound at all like him? Sounds more like a man trying to keep his job.

Think about that a minute. If a guy as competent as RH is desperate why should you feel any more protected from KR than him? Or Deanna but let's not go there...

BTW - has anyone even asked whether or not Deanna has said anything about this union mess prior to her departure? I heard she was in favor of it and encouraged one of the POC members to start investigating several months ago when it became obvious she could no longer protect you guys... So, in essence, she is the reason this union question all came about. I think that - and her departure - speak volumes...

Time to send in your card V1 and just face the fact it's the only choice you really have.

Good luck to you all and don't be discouraged. Just realize it's time to get on board.

Finally, a coherent post. Thank you. The card is in the mail because I know without enough votes we can't vote anyone in.

 

[FR8DOG777]

I think alpa is an excellent choice. I also think Rat and V1 should nominate themselves as lead counsel for the card drive for that movement. A cause worth fighting for surely is worth the risk of placing themselves squarely in the cross heirs of Kenneth Ricci like the 8 leaders did for them in the card drive for the teamsters.

 

[cougar12]

Hey!!! Not me!

Please clarify. You mean KR.

Sorry! Yes KR. I didn't mean to impugn your reputation.

 

[flex*wife]

Finally, a coherent post. Thank you. The card is in the mail because I know without enough votes we can't vote anyone in.

Exactly! Trying to divide the pilot group between which union is really just a nuanced version of a stall tactic about any vote and probably sent straight from management cronies if not at least encouraged by them.

As RH said in his latest email, it is almost too late... Of course he meant that to discourage you and keep the iffy stance of some squarely on the side of management but you are smarter than that!

 

[V1 Rotate]

Exactly! Trying to divide the pilot group between which union is really just a nuanced version of a stall tactic about any vote and probably sent straight from management cronies if not at least encouraged by them.

As RH said in his latest email, it is almost too late... Of course he meant that to discourage you and keep the iffy stance of some squarely on the side of management but you are smarter than that!

I'm not on the fence on whether we need a contract or not. That ship sailed last month and I'm on it. I'm just not one to blindly do what I'm told without exhausting other options.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

V1. If you can't figure out what is in your best interest by now....

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1. If you can't figure out what is in your best interest by now....

You'll never accept me into your circle no matter what I say from here out because I chose to question your wisdom, and that's fine. I realized many years ago that folks like you don't welcome outside thinking.

 

[Praetorian]

Sounds like the guys ^^ on board now. He's sent in a card, so I say we cut him a break.

Looks like the "ALPA phase" of this campaign is officially over!

 

[jetwash]

From what I have been reading and hearing on the road I have come to the conclusion that a union at Flex is now inevitable and that KR has also come to that conclusion as well.

It is now in his best interest to try to delay the vote as long as he can to drag this whole process out. A year ago he wanted the vote right away since he knew he would probably win, now the tide has turned and I am sure he is smart enough to realize that all the FO and Flex pilots will soon be represented by a union.

I remember being in the same position as the Flex pilots now find themselves, the uncertainty of what is going to happen next, who will get called into CGF and what will be taken away next. It was a stressful time at work as well as at home.

The first relief we had was when the union vote took place and it passed, the second was when the contract negotiations were concluded and we voted on the CBA. When the CBA passed and we started to work under a contract. The stress and worry we felt went away and the atmosphere at work improved and the job became enjoyable again.

Get those cards in and get the vote finished ASAP the sooner it gets done the sooner you will be able to put all of this behind you and return to some sort of normalcy at work.

Stay strong and stick together.

 

[slowtation capt]

Finally, a coherent post. Thank you. The card is in the mail because I know without enough votes we can't vote anyone in.

It was a good choice to send in the card and give yourself the option. I know there is no option but to work for KR with a contract and not "at will".

I know that sending in a union card and even voting yes for the union goes against everything that you felt you have worked towards in your career. The feeling deep down that what is happening couldn't really be happening and how is this my only option.

But what about all those feelings of uncertainty, wondering when the next major change from KR is coming, what will be that change, etc......

All the anguish and guilt and uncertainty that you probably feel, it's not because you failed the company, it's because the company failed you and will continue to fail you unless some action is taken.

That relief will come the moment the ballot count is done and the vote is a yes, you don't believe it right now, but it's true. You will wonder if you are making the right choice, who do I trust, who do I belief, what should I do. But all the uncertainty, the doubt, the pressure, it all comes off when that yes vote is announced. And then you know what path you will be headed down and exactly what is expected of you and of the company. No more "I wasn't aware of that, so I don't have to give it you" lies, no more changes on a whim.

It will be a huge relief, you just don't know how much it will be, right now.

 

[Flex605]

Slowtation captain you are spot on . I hope my brothers and sisters at flex realize this

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

You'll never accept me into your circle no matter what I say from here out because I chose to question your wisdom, and that's fine. I realized many years ago that folks like you don't welcome outside thinking.

Welcome V1. Don't let yourself become another victim. And I don't welcome outside thinking? I actually took a college course on existential psychology. I'm glad you are thinking about you decision instead of just guessing . Welcome.

 

[shanes123]

Welcome to all our new fellow brothers

 

[V1 Rotate]

While I appreciate the warm welcomes and still accept that someone other that Teamsters is a long shot, assuming the card drive passes, I still will continue to question decisions or comments going forward. It's just not in my nature to sit idly by. I also still have my concerns about a single union representing two competing interests. No need to relive that argument. Hopefully others reading this conversation have learned something.

 

[shanes123]

V1 you should always question anything that pertains to you're career I don't think any of our fellow pilots representing us would ever have a problem with that. Our union is not the answer to all the problems we face with KR he hates the union and his management fights us tooth and nail on the most simple matters just to try and flex their muscle but they don't have the power they want and it's a hell of a lot better then the alternative Glad to have you on board

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

If you want true dialogue why don't you contribute something worthwhile to the conversation.

OK. Here it is. This ALPA drive is nothing more than a diversionary tactic laid down by management, just as everyone on here has said. I will say it one more time, though.

I'm glad you sent your card in. Welcome aboard! Now help your compadres out. Join the P2P Committee or something to help get the truth out. The truth always wins.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

. I also still have my concerns about a single union representing two competing interests.

And this is where your belief system needs to evolve. Your two pilot groups -divided now by management - have the same interest: A good life! You are all the same. There is no competing interest.

The interest is mutual: a fight against a tyrant to achieve a better life for yourself and each other.

 

[warlord19]

V1, lot's of all your "brothers and sisters" are pretty vocal about coming over and flying your large aircraft, etc. after the vote. The election, contrary to the genius's on this board, has not happened. If Mr. R, or "uncle" as he is so fondly referred to here, were half as bad as our beloved IBT proclaims(and who wrote a 500 word explanation of why thy are no longer a corrupt union recently) I wouldn't continue to work here, union or no union.
WL

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

The pilots that went to Flex to try and fly the big equipment are all hand picked. These pilots are given opportunities not available to the average FO line pilot. These are Uncle's inner circle of pilots and he has to lead you to believe that someday you can join his club. Only problem is, These pilots weren't selected because of their flying skills.

 

[albatros101]

I was a fence sitter, but after reading comments from some of the ITB guys here, I am happy to say that my card is not in the mail but burned!!

You guys don't want to listen to a lot of our issues period, there are so many jabs at guys sitting on the fence, example "cut him a brake he is on board " really??

I worked under a ALPA contract for years paid my dues and life was just fine, the IBT position is KR- Bad, ALPA- Bad, IBT - Good. We'll last I checked all of ALPA's leaders are accounted for, but old Jimmy is still missing?

My mom once told me that a tiger never changes his stripes only his tactics, we'll there it is my 2 cents.

 

[doh]

Ricci is the tiger. And no, he won't change his stripes. Are you his latest tactic?