Alpa at Flex?

[Praetorian]

First off, I'm not sure where I insulted you? I merely responded to your lousy attempt to paint me as a major-airline-pilot-wannabe, as seen in your quote above. Moving on, Kenn has no influence on my positions. I've held the beliefs I have about ALPA and Teamsters long before I even knew who he was. I understand that the 1108 has a wealth of knowledge and are ahead of ALPA in that arena. But did you know that at one point ALPA didn't represent any 121 carriers but now they are the dominant force in that arena? Point is, it's not an impossible task for them to jump in. It's more than "just not wanting to be a Teamster" to me. I've laid out my reasons why I feel the way I do and I admit that i'ts a long shot. If it fails, then I'll live with it, something I don't think you're willing to do if the tide were to shift. Either way, at least I'm on board now with getting a contract between us and Kenn. Have you compromised on anything lately?

I'm not going to get in a tit for tat with you. I've tried to be conciliatory with you and explain how the $$ effect how the two unions in question would represent a small pilot group like ours. And yes I think you and others have a problem wrapping your minds around the thought of being a "Teamster", with all you think that entails.

I hope you will give what I've said about this some thought and do a little research of your own. Maybe even float your ideas on the 1108s message board.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

First off, I'm not sure where I insulted you? I merely responded to your lousy attempt to paint me as a major-airline-pilot-wannabe, as seen in your quote above. Moving on, Kenn has no influence on my positions.

What? He is your boss. He determines if you fly a shiny new jet. You sound like one of the pilots that are willing to fly broken airplanes. Uncle loves pilots like you.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I'm not going to get in a tit for tat with you. I've tried to be conciliatory with you and explain how the $$ effect how the two unions in question would represent a small pilot group like ours. And yes I think you and others have a problem wrapping your minds around the thought of being a "Teamster", with all you think that entails.

I hope you will give what I've said about this some thought and do a little research of your own. Maybe even float your ideas on the 1108s message board.

There's no tit for tat on my end. I simply stated some research that I conducted and you attacked me for it. I said in my last post that I understand the advantage that the 1108 has. I get it. But your petty attacks on me trying to label me don't help your cause of attracting membership. The worse part of it is that in the end I'll probably end up a Teamster and your little potshots at me will seem as though they won the war. As far as the 1108 board goes, from what I'm reading it's nothing more than Flight Info on steroids. With the exception of some well written MB articles, there's no constructive dialogue on there and I refuse to expose myself to it. Here, and Yammer, are plenty enough. Believe me, I've taken plenty of heat from both sides of the fence over the years, from both management and fellow pilots. You continue your agenda and I'll continue mine and if we cross paths somewhere, dinner is on me.

First off, I'm not sure where I insulted you? I merely responded to your lousy attempt to paint me as a major-airline-pilot-wannabe, as seen in your quote above. Moving on, Kenn has no influence on my positions.

What? He is your boss. He determines if you fly a shiny new jet. You sound like one of the pilots that are willing to fly broken airplanes. Uncle loves pilots like you.

What, no constructive dialogue to add to the conversation so you resort to such an incoherent post it really isn't worth responding to? You are so far outside of your league on characterizing me that you look completely foolish to those who know me. Seriously, you sound like a clown with that attack. And if you're one of the leaders in the 1108, then God help us all. Let me make it clear to you and others: I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE SHINY NEW JETS. I care about the nearly $10,000 grand in 401k and bonus that I just lost and three sick days on top of that. Aren't these the issues that we're suppose to rally around and unite against? I don't care for Kenn's management style nor do I trust it fully. Do I fly broken airplanes? Try again.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Also, why are the Teamsters allowed to represent 121 and 135?

Why not? That's just a silly question.

 

[V1 Rotate]

.....

 

[G4dude]

Your missing the point. ALPA has the ability to represent anyone they wish too. The problem with ALPA is it's structured as a top down organization. Again if we were represented by ALPA we would be sending 70% of our dues to ALPA HQ in Washington every month. This is why ALPA has never represented the smaller carriers very well. They control the purse strings from Washington and their priorities are firmly planted with the legacy carriers who supply them with majority of their resources.

Contrast this with the IBT which has always been a bottom up organization. Only 22% of dues collected go to Washington. This has always meant that IBT locals have significant autonomy. Local 1108 is no different.

What it really comes down to is a choice between historically poor representation for small pilot groups, like ours, or the type of local representation the IBT offers. Personally, I prefer to have pilots I fly the line with every day representing my interests. Not some guy from Delta or United.

I also think Kenn is trying to steer you towards ALPA because he knows they'd be a kind of absentee union and he could just ignore them.

I'm going to ignore your insults, because I think you really are trying to come to terms with all of this and I know how hard that can be. The good thing is the FO pilots have been down this road before, we've had all the same debates. You should try to set aside your bias and get to know some of the guys that actually run the union you're being asked to join. Some of them are probably sitting in an FBO pilots lounge out there somewhere right now.

It seems to me an in-house union would be better. What are the arguments against that?

 

[V1 Rotate]

Serious question: What exactly is the Teamsters merger policy? I ask because under Sections 3 and 13 of Allegheny-Mohawk, there are are provisions that allow for nonrepresented or other union represented groups to negotiate on their behalf. I can't find anywhere in the FLOPs contract, particularly in Section 1, that lays out how an SLI would be forged if both groups were represented by the 1108. Only that integration would be determined by current Teamsters policy, which is what I'm trying to figure out. If it says "staple them to the bottom," then obviously we don't want that and need to know that up front before we vote you guys in. Or, if it lays out a plan, or plans, then at least we'd know up front if those plans were acceptable should an SLI occur. If the majority of us don't like the 1108's merger policy, then we might want to consider representing ourselves (which we have our legal right to do so according to the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs) or hiring someone else. This isn't a pro-ALPA post, just making the point. So, can someone explain in plain English how the lists would be integrated if wer're both represented by Teamsters?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

V1;"What, no constructive dialogue to add to the conversation so you resort to such an incoherent post it really isn't worth responding to? You are so far outside of your league on characterizing me that you look completely foolish to those who know me. Seriously, you sound like a clown with that attack. And if you're one of the leaders in the 1108, then God help us all."

I get from your post you are superior to the rest of us and no, I am not one of the leaders in the 1108. I will gladly sound like a clown while you live on your knees. I lived that life and frankly, I have chose not to return to it. As for dinner? I'll take the cash instead.

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1;"What, no constructive dialogue to add to the conversation so you resort to such an incoherent post it really isn't worth responding to? You are so far outside of your league on characterizing me that you look completely foolish to those who know me. Seriously, you sound like a clown with that attack. And if you're one of the leaders in the 1108, then God help us all."

I get from your post you are superior to the rest of us and no, I am not one of the leaders in the 1108. I will gladly sound like a clown while you live on your knees. I lived that life and frankly, I have chose not to return to it. As for dinner? I'll take the cash instead.

Not superior to you or anyone else. Just trying to have dialogue and apparently you're not interested in that. Are you able to respond to my last post? Btw, the dinner offer wasn't for you.

 

[NewFlex]

Do you really think flight info is the best place for a serious question V1?

Go to the 1108 site, but honestly. Do your own research outside of any Internet chat room.

Always best policy.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Do you really think flight info is the best place for a serious question V1?

Go to the 1108 site, but honestly. Do your own research outside of any Internet chat room.

Always best policy.

Yeah, I know I ask way too much when trying to get answers here but a lot of people read this board and the material posted here could help get them to thinking, too. I've been reading all day. Hence the question on the previous page.

 

[Flex605]

I want to say that alpa can be put on the ballot if they decide to come . In the meantime lets all join together and preserve what we have left which is not much

 

[Praetorian]

Serious question: What exactly is the Teamsters merger policy? I ask because under Sections 3 and 13 of Allegheny-Mohawk, there are are provisions that allow for nonrepresented or other union represented groups to negotiate on their behalf. I can't find anywhere in the FLOPs contract, particularly in Section 1, that lays out how an SLI would be forged if both groups were represented by the 1108. Only that integration would be determined by current Teamsters policy, which is what I'm trying to figure out. If it says "staple them to the bottom," then obviously we don't want that and need to know that up front before we vote you guys in. Or, if it lays out a plan, or plans, then at least we'd know up front if those plans were acceptable should an SLI occur. If the majority of us don't like the 1108's merger policy, then we might want to consider representing ourselves (which we have our legal right to do so according to the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs) or hiring someone else. This isn't a pro-ALPA post, just making the point. So, can someone explain in plain English how the lists would be integrated if wer're both represented by Teamsters?

Your question was asked, answered and discussed here:

http://forum@ibt1108.org/

 

[V1 Rotate]

"If we can’t reach a negotiated agreement on seniority integration, then McCaskill-Bond says a neutral arbitrator must issue a decision on integration that is “fair and equitable.” There is no single methodology under the “fair and equitable” standard and arbitrators consider a variety of factors. Most importantly, all of the evidence and ideas in that arbitration will be presented by each pilot group’s merger committee to show what they believe is “fair and equitable,” including, but not limited to, the career expectations of each pilot group."

I assume you're talking about this? If so, fair enough. If not, please elaborate.

 

[cougar12]

"If we can?t reach a negotiated agreement on seniority integration, then McCaskill-Bond says a neutral arbitrator must issue a decision on integration that is ?fair and equitable.? There is no single methodology under the ?fair and equitable? standard and arbitrators consider a variety of factors. Most importantly, all of the evidence and ideas in that arbitration will be presented by each pilot group?s merger committee to show what they believe is ?fair and equitable,? including, but not limited to, the career expectations of each pilot group."

I assume you're talking about this? If so, fair enough. If not, please elaborate.

I think that's about right!
I know a lot of Flight Options pilots expected Gulfstreams and Legacy 450/500 aircraft since Kenn has been promising them ever since he has been back and now he has announced Flex is getting them you guys have the same expectation. This equals division and was planned by the Architect himself.
Now enter the Red Herring!
That's another reason we are suspicious of the Red Label program and what it means for the future of Flex Jet.
Remember the end game is One Sky with just brand names with one employee group that can be moved around as the market dictates or Kenn dictates. We are all One sky employees.
I think the best thing we can do is get our two represenitive groups together and work it out. Sooner rather than later because I think the only winner will be Kenn the longer we stay divided.

 

[The Architect]

Not me!

This equals division and was planned by the Architect himself.

Hey!!! Not me!

Please clarify. You mean KR.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Not superior to you or anyone else. Just trying to have dialogue and apparently you're not interested in that. Are you able to respond to my last post? Btw, the dinner offer wasn't for you.

If this gentleman you are in dialogue with is a FLOPS employee, no need to buy him dinner. Uncle is buying for him.

As for dialogue, this appears to me to be a one way dialogue, with you having your mouth open and your ears closed. That, my friend, is not true dialogue. You should try to listen to what people are saying. Unless, of course, if your mind is already made up which it seems to be. In that case, why even waste your time?

 

[V1 Rotate]

If this gentleman you are in dialogue with is a FLOPS employee, no need to buy him dinner. Uncle is buying for him.

As for dialogue, this appears to me to be a one way dialogue, with you having your mouth open and your ears closed. That, my friend, is not true dialogue. You should try to listen to what people are saying. Unless, of course, if your mind is already made up which it seems to be. In that case, why even waste your time?

Everyone jumps up and down, yells and screams, "Do your research, read this, read that, etc, etc...," which I've done. So, when I have questions about the research I've done I get accused of being closed minded. One year ago I would've never had this conversation. Does that sound like closed ears to you? And just because I want to discuss something that you've already made your mind up about, that makes me a big mouth? Your post is just like all the others. Nothing constructive. Only an attack on me. I openly admit that I'm probably fighting a losing battle but at least I'm open to options. So, it seems to me that you described your own self in your last post. If you want true dialogue why don't you contribute something worthwhile to the conversation.

 

[flex*wife]

Respectfully, whether you like the IBT or not by your DO's own admissions in his email missive of yesterday it is getting almost too late to change the course of Ricci's plans. You don't have more time.

If Flex needs a union, the IBT is the only one with enough of a head start to make a difference for you. Remember, I was a fan of looking elsewhere too. But there just isn't any more time if you want to stop Ricci in his tracks. Waiting will be a detriment to you and both pilot groups.

So, V1, as much as a respect your research and questions, perhaps your best bet would be to realize the time for them was long ago. Perhaps you should volunteer for the merger committee etc... so all your studying can be put to good use.

And yes, when I say merger committee I am saying I think the vote is a done deal. Either because the cards are adequate or the fence negotiations are stalled and they will force a vote - whatever the exact reason is irrelevant since it is obvious they are going to a vote either way.

Get used to the fact a union at Flex is a reality whether you like it or not. Given that I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of history by abstaining from sending in a card. I can almost GUARANTEE you positions for things like the merger committee, CBA negotiations etc... will only be had by people shown to be interested by sending in a card.

Even if the vote is a done deal (by my estimation) you have a lot to loose if you aren't one of the ones on that card list. Not a risk I'd want to take.

Protect your position if you really care about these things, send in a card and keep your options open. That's really all a card does is keep your options open. Seems to me it would be foolish not to do that. So why is RH giving the advice to do the exact opposite?

Management is DESPERATE and even an unbiased rendering of logic when reading the emails coming out, one can see the incongruency of statements and tactics. Sounds to me like they somehow know the union must be just a few shy of that magic number. They are way too worried about letting you have a voice. Thinking about that actually just makes me downright giddy and hopeful. Y'all are FINALLY going to get what you deserve - a seat at the table, a voice in your destiny.

That leads me to another point. I've met Rick - I've talked to Rick. Do these emails and the yammer posts I've heard about even really sound like him? Don't get me wrong - I think he's writing them - but they sound like he's been told what to do. They sound desperate. And the crickets on yammer spare a few individuals is deafening... But does what he's saying and the tactics he's using even really sound at all like him? Sounds more like a man trying to keep his job.

Think about that a minute. If a guy as competent as RH is desperate why should you feel any more protected from KR than him? Or Deanna but let's not go there...

BTW - has anyone even asked whether or not Deanna has said anything about this union mess prior to her departure? I heard she was in favor of it and encouraged one of the POC members to start investigating several months ago when it became obvious she could no longer protect you guys... So, in essence, she is the reason this union question all came about. I think that - and her departure - speak volumes...

Time to send in your card V1 and just face the fact it's the only choice you really have.

Good luck to you all and don't be discouraged. Just realize it's time to get on board.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Respectfully, whether you like the IBT or not by your DO's own admissions in his email missive of yesterday it is getting almost too late to change the course of Ricci's plans. You don't have more time.

If Flex needs a union, the IBT is the only one with enough of a head start to make a difference for you. Remember, I was a fan of looking elsewhere too. But there just isn't any more time if you want to stop Ricci in his tracks. Waiting will be a detriment to you and both pilot groups.

So, V1, as much as a respect your research and questions, perhaps your best bet would be to realize the time for them was long ago. Perhaps you should volunteer for the merger committee etc... so all your studying can be put to good use.

And yes, when I say merger committee I am saying I think the vote is a done deal. Either because the cards are adequate or the fence negotiations are stalled and they will force a vote - whatever the exact reason is irrelevant since it is obvious they are going to a vote either way.

Get used to the fact a union at Flex is a reality whether you like it or not. Given that I wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of history by abstaining from sending in a card. I can almost GUARANTEE you positions for things like the merger committee, CBA negotiations etc... will only be had by people shown to be interested by sending in a card.

Even if the vote is a done deal (by my estimation) you have a lot to loose if you aren't one of the ones on that card list. Not a risk I'd want to take.

Protect your position if you really care about these things, send in a card and keep your options open. That's really all a card does is keep your options open. Seems to me it would be foolish not to do that. So why is RH giving the advice to do the exact opposite?

Management is DESPERATE and even an unbiased rendering of logic when reading the emails coming out, one can see the incongruency of statements and tactics. Sounds to me like they somehow know the union must be just a few shy of that magic number. They are way too worried about letting you have a voice. Thinking about that actually just makes me downright giddy and hopeful. Y'all are FINALLY going to get what you deserve - a seat at the table, a voice in your destiny.

That leads me to another point. I've met Rick - I've talked to Rick. Do these emails and the yammer posts I've heard about even really sound like him? Don't get me wrong - I think he's writing them - but they sound like he's been told what to do. They sound desperate. And the crickets on yammer spare a few individuals is deafening... But does what he's saying and the tactics he's using even really sound at all like him? Sounds more like a man trying to keep his job.

Think about that a minute. If a guy as competent as RH is desperate why should you feel any more protected from KR than him? Or Deanna but let's not go there...

BTW - has anyone even asked whether or not Deanna has said anything about this union mess prior to her departure? I heard she was in favor of it and encouraged one of the POC members to start investigating several months ago when it became obvious she could no longer protect you guys... So, in essence, she is the reason this union question all came about. I think that - and her departure - speak volumes...

Time to send in your card V1 and just face the fact it's the only choice you really have.

Good luck to you all and don't be discouraged. Just realize it's time to get on board.

Finally, a coherent post. Thank you. The card is in the mail because I know without enough votes we can't vote anyone in.