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AirTran T.A. = Vote NO
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j41driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2002
- Posts
- 1,300
borntwofly
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2007
- Posts
- 16
I read TA2 in its entirety, compared it to our current contract, researched 5th years FO pays in the industry and one thing finally sealed the deal. Scope is bad, yes, but not a huge credible threat (some might feel different, but I don't). Proposed 5th year FO pay is $7 below industry average (that is a bit retarded and irresponsible for a successful company providing a great product). There is a lot of little give and take (not worth mentioning and that is why it is called "negotiations"). What finally made the decision for me is this. If I sit reserve, which I will for more than 3 years as a Captain, and I don't fly, get Ready Reserve or sick out I get paid nothing. NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YGBFSM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I never worked a job and never will where they have me show up to work only to say, "Sorry, we don't need you" and send me home without pay. This ain't f$&#*$g charity. If anyone is on the fence about this TA, realize that for all the dangers that exist in this poorly written contract, a whole bunch of us will be giving away a day of our lives at a time and getting nothing in return.
NO! is the only answer to this TA!
I never worked a job and never will where they have me show up to work only to say, "Sorry, we don't need you" and send me home without pay. This ain't f$&#*$g charity. If anyone is on the fence about this TA, realize that for all the dangers that exist in this poorly written contract, a whole bunch of us will be giving away a day of our lives at a time and getting nothing in return.
NO! is the only answer to this TA!
Fly-By-Cable
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2001
- Posts
- 515
I wanted to choke my FO this week who voted YES on TA. He's about to hold upgrade. His thinking was:
company will slow growth if we vote NO. I think he is already living on those tripple diggit CA hourly rates and thinks it's a raise no matter what. When asked about the reserve rules he said "oh well, reserve is never supposed to be fun anyways"
I must say one thing, Company has done a great job hiring these passive retards.
company will slow growth if we vote NO. I think he is already living on those tripple diggit CA hourly rates and thinks it's a raise no matter what. When asked about the reserve rules he said "oh well, reserve is never supposed to be fun anyways"
I must say one thing, Company has done a great job hiring these passive retards.
Last edited:
SkiFishFly
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2005
- Posts
- 779
I agree with your no vote.
How is it that the company will pay you nothing for reserve? We still would get monthly gaurantee - or did I miss something here?
Please reread that part of the TA2. Ready Reserve pays 4 hours evan with no flight. If you call in sick after being given a flight or RR you get paid sick time.
Activism climbing at airline unions
http://www.topix.net/content/trb/200...airline-unions
Activism climbing at airline unions
By Julie Johnsson
Chicago Tribune
September 15, 2007
United Airlines pilots have put a new face on labor unrest - it's a giant inflatable rat holding bags of money, the pilots' latest universal description of upper management.
United's unionized pilots last month used the rodent to greet passengers at the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport as they were checking in, the latest in a series of stepped up public attacks on company management as union leaders face key elections Oct. 9.
After six years of relative calm, union activism is escalating across the airline industry. And it's not just management on the hot seat. Rank-and-file employees, seething over losing one-third or more of their pay and management's perceived greed, are striking back at the easiest targets too: the union leaders who agreed to those concessions.
As emotions rise among workers, so does the pressure on union leaders to take a harder line with management, or be replaced by someone who will.
'If Attila the Hun were running he'd be elected,' said Michael Boyd, president of the Boyd Group, an Evergreen, Colo.-based consulting firm.
It's a volatile situation that appears to be building into one of the labor paroxysms that seize major airlines each decade. The last spasm, in the late 1990s and 2000, resulted in rich contract concessions that helped speed some carriers, including United, into bankruptcy when the market for air travel collapsed following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
Momentum swung labor's way, some experts say, when Northwest Airlines pilots last month won time-and-a-half overtime pay from a management team known for its unyielding stance on labor issues.
Pilot shortages had forced Northwest to cancel thousands of flights during June and July. Executives blamed the weather, air-system congestion and pilot absenteeism for the disruptions; pilots said inadequate staffing was at fault.
'Every five to seven years the baseball bat changes hands,' said Kit Darby, an airline pilot who is president of Atlanta-based AIR Inc., a firm that specializes in pilot recruiting and job placement. 'I think we have the official changing of the baseball bat.'
Already pilot contract talks are under way at American, Continental and Southwest Airlines and are expected to set the tone for the rest of the industry through the end of the decade.
Negotiations at American, the world's largest carrier, are of particular interest to other airlines and unions because of the ill will that has crept into labor relations since unions voluntarily gave up pay in 2003 to keep the carrier out of bankruptcy.
American's pilots say they are in no mood to be conciliatory.
They are angered by incentive plans that have granted rich payouts to senior executives but not to other employees.
In fact, talks ground to a halt this summer after pilots voted out union chief Ralph Hunter, who presided over the 2003 talks. Lloyd Hill, who replaced Hunter, has vowed to take a more aggressive stance. Negotiations are set to resume Oct. 2.
'Across the industry, pilots are done giving up [pay] and we're ready to recoup some of the losses,' said David Aldrich, a Miami-based pilot for American and a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association, the independent union representing the carrier's 8,325 pilots. 'Management's had time to fix the store since 2001. It's time to stop giving away our services.'
Airline executives counter that any large-scale giveback to employees would threaten their financial recovery, especially with oil prices reaching record highs.
'We're in a difficult position in that regard at the moment,' said Mark Burdette, vice president for employee relations at American Airlines. 'We're having to find ways of basically educating employees on the fact that there's been a fundamental restructuring of the industry. The folks who've gone through bankruptcy have undercut us on unit labor costs.'
AirlineForecasts LLC, a Virginia-based market research firm, estimates that a 10 percent increase in labor expenses would cost American about $700 million per year and United about $400 million per year, potentially wiping out much of the profits the carriers would otherwise earn.
'Emotions are high, expectations are high,' Darby said. 'The worst situation is if you have very high [worker] expectations and the company's bottom line doesn't support it.'
There is no imminent threat of a strike at American or other carriers. After all, federal law limits pilots and other unionized airline workers from job actions until talks wind their way through the National Mediation Board. Even then, the president or Congress could intervene, as President Bill Clinton did in 1997 to block a strike by pilots at American.
Even so, pilots, literally and figuratively, have their hands on the throttle at major airlines and can disrupt operations just by sticking to the letter of their contract, analysts say. More than any other employee group, they determine whether flight schedules flow smoothly. They cannot be outsourced or easily replaced with new hires. And with staffing leaner than it has ever been, carriers depend on pilots to volunteer for extra duty.
Just how testy labor relations get at United will depend in large part on who its pilots choose to replace Mark Bathurst, a United director who is stepping down as chairman of the United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association when his term expires next month.
It's not certain who is in the running to replace Bathurst, since campaigning is generally done in pilots lounges, over dinner or via phone. Only leaders from the airline's eight major domiciles, or home bases, are eligible to vote. And even they may not know who's in the running until nominating speeches begin after lunch on Oct. 9.
Insiders think there's a good chance United's pilots will turn to a more activist leader, like their peers at American Airlines.
If ALPA falters it could hand critical momentum to a dissident group, known as the United Pilots Association, that seeks to displace it as the group representing pilots at the nation's second-largest carrier. So far the upstarts have collected ballots from about 1,500 pilots, far short of the 3,700 ballots they need to be certified by labor officials to hold a run-off election to challenge the incumbent union.
'Is ALPA starting to listen at United Airlines? Yes, I think they are,' said Karl Richcreek, an Airbus A320 captain who is president of the United Pilots Association. 'The discontent among pilots is huge.'
Adding to the pressure for United Chief Executive Glenn Tilton to defuse the labor issue is that for the first time in United's history all of the company's union contracts will be open for renegotiation at the same time in 2010.
'What's important for all of our stakeholders is to have a sustainable company that can compete in a challenging and unpredictable environment, such as one that has fuel at $80 a barrel,' said United spokeswoman Jean Medina. 'We are focused on making the right decisions for United and all of our constituents. We meet with our employees regularly and will continue to discuss issues that are mutually beneficial.'
[email protected]
Copyright © 2007 Chicago Tribune, All Rights Reserved.
http://www.topix.net/content/trb/200...airline-unions
Activism climbing at airline unions
By Julie Johnsson
Chicago Tribune
September 15, 2007
United Airlines pilots have put a new face on labor unrest - it's a giant inflatable rat holding bags of money, the pilots' latest universal description of upper management.
United's unionized pilots last month used the rodent to greet passengers at the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport as they were checking in, the latest in a series of stepped up public attacks on company management as union leaders face key elections Oct. 9.
After six years of relative calm, union activism is escalating across the airline industry. And it's not just management on the hot seat. Rank-and-file employees, seething over losing one-third or more of their pay and management's perceived greed, are striking back at the easiest targets too: the union leaders who agreed to those concessions.
As emotions rise among workers, so does the pressure on union leaders to take a harder line with management, or be replaced by someone who will.
'If Attila the Hun were running he'd be elected,' said Michael Boyd, president of the Boyd Group, an Evergreen, Colo.-based consulting firm.
It's a volatile situation that appears to be building into one of the labor paroxysms that seize major airlines each decade. The last spasm, in the late 1990s and 2000, resulted in rich contract concessions that helped speed some carriers, including United, into bankruptcy when the market for air travel collapsed following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.
Momentum swung labor's way, some experts say, when Northwest Airlines pilots last month won time-and-a-half overtime pay from a management team known for its unyielding stance on labor issues.
Pilot shortages had forced Northwest to cancel thousands of flights during June and July. Executives blamed the weather, air-system congestion and pilot absenteeism for the disruptions; pilots said inadequate staffing was at fault.
'Every five to seven years the baseball bat changes hands,' said Kit Darby, an airline pilot who is president of Atlanta-based AIR Inc., a firm that specializes in pilot recruiting and job placement. 'I think we have the official changing of the baseball bat.'
Already pilot contract talks are under way at American, Continental and Southwest Airlines and are expected to set the tone for the rest of the industry through the end of the decade.
Negotiations at American, the world's largest carrier, are of particular interest to other airlines and unions because of the ill will that has crept into labor relations since unions voluntarily gave up pay in 2003 to keep the carrier out of bankruptcy.
American's pilots say they are in no mood to be conciliatory.
They are angered by incentive plans that have granted rich payouts to senior executives but not to other employees.
In fact, talks ground to a halt this summer after pilots voted out union chief Ralph Hunter, who presided over the 2003 talks. Lloyd Hill, who replaced Hunter, has vowed to take a more aggressive stance. Negotiations are set to resume Oct. 2.
'Across the industry, pilots are done giving up [pay] and we're ready to recoup some of the losses,' said David Aldrich, a Miami-based pilot for American and a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association, the independent union representing the carrier's 8,325 pilots. 'Management's had time to fix the store since 2001. It's time to stop giving away our services.'
Airline executives counter that any large-scale giveback to employees would threaten their financial recovery, especially with oil prices reaching record highs.
'We're in a difficult position in that regard at the moment,' said Mark Burdette, vice president for employee relations at American Airlines. 'We're having to find ways of basically educating employees on the fact that there's been a fundamental restructuring of the industry. The folks who've gone through bankruptcy have undercut us on unit labor costs.'
AirlineForecasts LLC, a Virginia-based market research firm, estimates that a 10 percent increase in labor expenses would cost American about $700 million per year and United about $400 million per year, potentially wiping out much of the profits the carriers would otherwise earn.
'Emotions are high, expectations are high,' Darby said. 'The worst situation is if you have very high [worker] expectations and the company's bottom line doesn't support it.'
There is no imminent threat of a strike at American or other carriers. After all, federal law limits pilots and other unionized airline workers from job actions until talks wind their way through the National Mediation Board. Even then, the president or Congress could intervene, as President Bill Clinton did in 1997 to block a strike by pilots at American.
Even so, pilots, literally and figuratively, have their hands on the throttle at major airlines and can disrupt operations just by sticking to the letter of their contract, analysts say. More than any other employee group, they determine whether flight schedules flow smoothly. They cannot be outsourced or easily replaced with new hires. And with staffing leaner than it has ever been, carriers depend on pilots to volunteer for extra duty.
Just how testy labor relations get at United will depend in large part on who its pilots choose to replace Mark Bathurst, a United director who is stepping down as chairman of the United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association when his term expires next month.
It's not certain who is in the running to replace Bathurst, since campaigning is generally done in pilots lounges, over dinner or via phone. Only leaders from the airline's eight major domiciles, or home bases, are eligible to vote. And even they may not know who's in the running until nominating speeches begin after lunch on Oct. 9.
Insiders think there's a good chance United's pilots will turn to a more activist leader, like their peers at American Airlines.
If ALPA falters it could hand critical momentum to a dissident group, known as the United Pilots Association, that seeks to displace it as the group representing pilots at the nation's second-largest carrier. So far the upstarts have collected ballots from about 1,500 pilots, far short of the 3,700 ballots they need to be certified by labor officials to hold a run-off election to challenge the incumbent union.
'Is ALPA starting to listen at United Airlines? Yes, I think they are,' said Karl Richcreek, an Airbus A320 captain who is president of the United Pilots Association. 'The discontent among pilots is huge.'
Adding to the pressure for United Chief Executive Glenn Tilton to defuse the labor issue is that for the first time in United's history all of the company's union contracts will be open for renegotiation at the same time in 2010.
'What's important for all of our stakeholders is to have a sustainable company that can compete in a challenging and unpredictable environment, such as one that has fuel at $80 a barrel,' said United spokeswoman Jean Medina. 'We are focused on making the right decisions for United and all of our constituents. We meet with our employees regularly and will continue to discuss issues that are mutually beneficial.'
[email protected]
Copyright © 2007 Chicago Tribune, All Rights Reserved.
Ty Webb
Hostage to Fortune
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2001
- Posts
- 6,524
Fear not. The odds in Vegas right now are 3:2 against it passing . . . . In fact, I'm reading it on the "big board" right now at Caesar's. . . . finally, a decent layover, for a change.
TW
. . .Sent wirelessly via my I-Phone . . . . from Vegas, BABY!
Last edited:
CitationLover
Aw, Nuts!
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2003
- Posts
- 3,316
Tell OJ hello.
PRINCE AKEEM
Sexual Chocolate
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2005
- Posts
- 157
Of all the crap you sometimes post on our board, that was pretty funny!:laugh:
Ty Webb
Hostage to Fortune
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2001
- Posts
- 6,524
I would . . . if he'd just take a break from "finding the real killers" . . . . apparently, there are an awful lot of golf courses they could be hiding out at.
TW
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
Left you a voicemail, they terminated my employment as of last Thursday.
Sucking wind, looking for a job until I get my position back at AirTran, looking forward to the T.A. vote results on Friday, and hoping that the long process of grievance filing passes rather quickly.
Have a bunch of guys who have stepped up to help me with letters of rec and such at everywhere from NJA to Citation Shares to CAL, NWA, and JBlue but, with a fresh termination on my record, the odds of actually getting on at one of those is fairly slim.
So, it's either unemployment and bankruptcy to hold onto the house OR, take a job flying Lear charter out of town (nothing avail in Nashville), never see my 2 year old son, and step back about 10 years in time in my career for a year or two.
Not very fun prospects either way. Where are you? I need to go drinking...
Last edited:
j41driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2002
- Posts
- 1,300
Was it the "company" that put the letter out there?
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
That's nice... hostile work environment, libel, and defamation of character. Someone needs to fax me the letter 615-847-2064.
The long story short is I was on OJI from the 3rd through the 30th (injury date on the 3rd) and the company is saying that I "allegedly" committed fraud by working on my car while I was on OJI.
They neglect to tell people that the "video evidence" they obtained during the ENTIRE 27 days I was out wasn't until day 25, almost a MONTH after the injury and just 36 hours before I jumpseated to ATL and their doctor pronounced me fit for duty.
They evidently expect you to be an invalid on bed rest until the second you report for your next trip and changing a tire and spraying a pulley with lubricating spray is just "too much" for you to do after being out on OJI for almost a month but within 36-48 hours of being returned to full work duty.
The company waited until AFTER their doctor declared me fit for duty to say anything (even though they had the info from their private investigator a couple days before then), THEN pulled me off my schedule marked MED (medical leave), wouldn't tell me why, did the meeting in MCO, then waited yet another week before they actually terminated me.
I haven't received the letter, but Rob D. read it to me over the phone on Thursday afternoon. It's full of misrepresentations and stretched versions of what was said under oath, and made to read as bad as could be for my job search with other carriers.
Basically, it's about as hostile and retaliatory as it gets.
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
Please quote the letter EXACTLY or fax it to me. Hard to reply without EXACT context.
Worked a trip the 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Injury happened on the night of the 3rd but didn't hurt bad when I did it (muscle stuff sometimes doesn't show up for a day or two afterwards, makes it hard to report IMMEDIATELY which they complained about also as a violation of the company policy and procedures handbook).
Next day complained to the CA that it was hurting (that was Day 2). Day 3, final day of trip, hurt bad but sucked it up to do 2 legs back to base with lots of Advil. That was the 5th.
6th was really bad, 7 wasn't any better so I tried to see my doctor in the afternoon, but he wouldn't see me. Said there was some conflict of insurance deal for OJI covered events and the second I said "hurt it at work" they wouldn't talk to me.
Next day wasn't better so I finally called "uncle" and got in touch with Floy. Took 3 MORE days for them to finally get me in to see one of their doctors... Not a fun experience.
Worked a trip the 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Injury happened on the night of the 3rd but didn't hurt bad when I did it (muscle stuff sometimes doesn't show up for a day or two afterwards, makes it hard to report IMMEDIATELY which they complained about also as a violation of the company policy and procedures handbook).
Next day complained to the CA that it was hurting (that was Day 2). Day 3, final day of trip, hurt bad but sucked it up to do 2 legs back to base with lots of Advil. That was the 5th.
6th was really bad, 7 wasn't any better so I tried to see my doctor in the afternoon, but he wouldn't see me. Said there was some conflict of insurance deal for OJI covered events and the second I said "hurt it at work" they wouldn't talk to me.
Next day wasn't better so I finally called "uncle" and got in touch with Floy. Took 3 MORE days for them to finally get me in to see one of their doctors... Not a fun experience.
j41driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2002
- Posts
- 1,300
I'll fax it to you tomorrow if you still don't have it....have an early wakeup or I'd go to the lobby and fax it right now.
Why is it that I (among others) have this before you do????? Gotta get out of this place.....
We all know it is a set up. Hell when is the last time Airtran spent money on a P.I. for a guy out for less than a month. This place is really turning into a joke. Lear is a guy who steps up to fight for the pilots because he knows how weak our union is . Plain and simple the company is really showing their true colors during this whole process. Good luck Lear !! Hope you get your job back just for the sake of your resume. Not that I would come back after what you have dealt with.
Well?
The question is, were you out on OJI and engaging in the activiites that you are accused? (changing tire, operating a jack, under the hood of your car). If you were, your are in the wrong...period!
That's nice... hostile work environment, libel, and defamation of character. Someone needs to fax me the letter 615-847-2064.
The long story short is I was on OJI from the 3rd through the 30th (injury date on the 3rd) and the company is saying that I "allegedly" committed fraud by working on my car while I was on OJI.
They neglect to tell people that the "video evidence" they obtained during the ENTIRE 27 days I was out wasn't until day 25, almost a MONTH after the injury and just 36 hours before I jumpseated to ATL and their doctor pronounced me fit for duty.
They evidently expect you to be an invalid on bed rest until the second you report for your next trip and changing a tire and spraying a pulley with lubricating spray is just "too much" for you to do after being out on OJI for almost a month but within 36-48 hours of being returned to full work duty.
The company waited until AFTER their doctor declared me fit for duty to say anything (even though they had the info from their private investigator a couple days before then), THEN pulled me off my schedule marked MED (medical leave), wouldn't tell me why, did the meeting in MCO, then waited yet another week before they actually terminated me.
I haven't received the letter, but Rob D. read it to me over the phone on Thursday afternoon. It's full of misrepresentations and stretched versions of what was said under oath, and made to read as bad as could be for my job search with other carriers.
Basically, it's about as hostile and retaliatory as it gets.
The question is, were you out on OJI and engaging in the activiites that you are accused? (changing tire, operating a jack, under the hood of your car). If you were, your are in the wrong...period!
RIDETHELIGHTING
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2003
- Posts
- 702
Little Bubba
Current title:
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 151
So let me get this straight. I pull a muscle in my back and have to go out on OJI for 30 days (I'm assuming a doc says take one month to recover). I'm to meet with a company doc for clearance to go back to work on day 30. On day 29 a private dick films me picking up my toddler for a goodbye kiss as I leave.....and I would be in the wrong. Yeah..that's reasonable.
Citrusflyer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 252
Hmmmm...first ever post, and a slam on our friend Lear.....I didn't know moles could write let alone see the light of day......
Let me start by saying that the company is playing dirty pool. However, Lear70 should not have done anything that the company could use aginst him. He had a target on his back and he put a spotlight on it for the company. Evan if he changed his tire so he could go to the Doc he was not released.
Was the PI hired by the company or the Workers comp?
Was the PI hired by the company or the Workers comp?
So you expect him to be a complete invalid for 25 days? Ridiculous.
Occam's Razor
Risible...ALWAYS risible
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Posts
- 2,551
Ignore the troll.
The simple truth is this: No airman may excercise the privleges of his certificate with disqualifying symptoms. Guess who determines if the airman has "disqualifying" pain?
The airman.
This is harassment. An attorney well-versed in the FAR's will carry the day. The issue is WHEN that "day" will get here.
The simple truth is this: No airman may excercise the privleges of his certificate with disqualifying symptoms. Guess who determines if the airman has "disqualifying" pain?
The airman.
This is harassment. An attorney well-versed in the FAR's will carry the day. The issue is WHEN that "day" will get here.
this is pure crap and harassment,
if i call in sick, and the the company sees me at the 4th of july celebration. am i lying?
they can only assume.
they make some ridiculous accusations toward me.
But I show them the prescription for vicoden I was taking to keep the pain bearable. Can't fly while under the influence of pain meds but I sure can watch fireworks with my kids.
ultimately the company lost.
if i call in sick, and the the company sees me at the 4th of july celebration. am i lying?
they can only assume.
they make some ridiculous accusations toward me.
But I show them the prescription for vicoden I was taking to keep the pain bearable. Can't fly while under the influence of pain meds but I sure can watch fireworks with my kids.
ultimately the company lost.
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