AirTran T.A. = Vote NO

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Sap-1 is the least of worries if this passes.

 

[j41driver]

Sap-1 is the least of worries if this passes.

For you and me that's absolutely the truth. For a guy near the top of the list he very likely wouldn't be affected by scope changes, reserve rules wouldn't affect him like they would new upgrades and he could care less about FO pay because he had to PFT when he was hired here and made next to nothing.

I'm just grasping at straws here to try to get some more NO votes from the senior guys. Thanks guys!

 

[RadioClash]

I'm flying with a pretty senior guy this month. Every time I bring up Lear's rebuttal points re: reserve, scope, FO payrates, etc. he always makes it about him and how that section doesn't really affect him. How do I convince him that he should be thinking about the "little guy" also? What would you do/say to help him see your point of view?

A good punch in the mouth might help. Relax, its sarcasm.

 

[j41driver]

A good punch in the mouth might help. Relax, its sarcasm.

Believe me I wanted to. Figured that wouldn't help the cause much though.

 

[FIREMAN]

Say he calls in sick, but on day two he feels better, so he calls in to rejoin his trip. Skeds tells him that is impossible, but they have three days of reserve for him.

Scen A: He has to live under reserve rules for three days.

Scen B: He says no thanks and they then put him down as refusing an assignment.[/quote]


Not true. If he calls in sick he can pick up open time starting day two.

If he calls in late to report he can be offerd reseve.

He does not have to accept a reserve assignment. He would lose the pay for that trip.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Say he calls in sick, but on day two he feels better, so he calls in to rejoin his trip. Skeds tells him that is impossible, but they have three days of reserve for him.

Scen A: He has to live under reserve rules for three days.

Scen B: He says no thanks and they then put him down as refusing an assignment.

Not true. If he calls in sick he can pick up open time starting day two.

If he calls in late to report he can be offerd reseve.

He does not have to accept a reserve assignment. He would lose the pay for that trip.

I stand corrected, but, if everyone else is using misinformation, why can't we use a little too?

 

[FIREMAN]

I stand corrected, but, if everyone else is using misinformation, why can't we use a little too?

We are better than that. This TA needs to voted down on the right info.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

We are better than that. This TA needs to voted down on the right info.

I know. I was joking.

 

[maxblast72]

For you and me that's absolutely the truth. For a guy near the top of the list he very likely wouldn't be affected by scope changes, reserve rules wouldn't affect him like they would new upgrades and he could care less about FO pay because he had to PFT when he was hired here and made next to nothing.

I'm just grasping at straws here to try to get some more NO votes from the senior guys. Thanks guys!

Don't worry about the senior guys. Skipper was probably trying to get the senior guys $300 while the junior guys could stay below industry average. Too bad he doens't realize guys with 6 years or less seniority have a 2 to 1 edge over guys here more than 6 years.

 

[easydoesit]

Seriously guys is it really that bad here at Tranny? You all sound like a bunch of cry babies. Obviously you have not been through tough contract negotiations before. I'm sorry, but if you think about this scnizzle too much, you get your undies all in a bundle and lose the big picture. I know TA2 or whatever you wanna call it sucks. Let's just quit bitchin and find a way to fight for something we deserve.

Vote this thing down and start some job actions through the proper channels. Our voice will be heard if we can stick together.

Whatever, this site is way too depressing and masochistic. I should really stay away from it...

 

[LUalum]

No it's not that bad. If you adjust your expectations, management here is focused on the bottom line, everything else is subordinate to that. Expect bare bones training, poorly trained gate agents and FA's, dirty cramped airplanes, rundown facilities, skyhigh insurance costs and a sorry excuse for a TA. Also expect to fly a regional type schedule in the domestic US. However there is a lot of new blood here now, guys who have actually been around the block a time or two. Hopefully their influence will have a positive impact. Maybe the recent recall of the NPA "old guard" leadership is an indication of better things to come. For me though 3 years is enough, CAL class starts in 2 weeks. Tailwinds.

 

[Spidey]

...Ty, take a step back, take a breath and look at the big picture and stop reading what ain't there, bro...UPS, FedEX, SWA, CO, etal are hiring like big dogs...it's more a function of greener pastures out there flying big jets, etc...the TA and all it entails may some effect...it's just like prior to 9-11...the majors, legacies were hiring and our applicants had less experience...did some TA cause that...no...so, yeh we have people leaving, but it is not strictly due to the TA-tho it has some influence-quote]

You Spidey are incorrect. I have been here two years and when I first came here I thought "this could be good...a place where I can happily end my carreer" after seeing how the company has handled itself with it's "we will not give them anything" approach to these TA's I am ready to leave. Cannot imagine spending 30 more years and 8 or so more contract negotiations at a company that expects me to take a pay cut every contract. So i can only imagine that I am not the only pilot at airTran thinking this way. You are wrong.

stew...spell "career" correctly and then we'll talk...wow, 2 years grows into 30 years so quickly...for now, jez learn how to fly...and then move on, if you choose...and have the opportunity...I've spent 26 years slummin around the aviation world, never lookin past the next MAP...and had a great time, really cool jobs you'll not have, livin in a cool house, first wife, 17 yr old daughter that still loves her Dad...and yer dead set it's 30 years or nothing...that's your opinion, I'm not going to start and end my post sayin your wrong, cuz I'll look really uptight, kinda like you...yer in for a helluva lotta artificial stress in your life for the next 30 years, or whatever you quoted...never fly faster than yer TFR can see...and it's "Shoulder Harness", not "Shoulder Harnesses"...and if you hurry the Before Takeoff Check at Hobby, you're going to takeoff on the wrong runway on the standup...so slow down...cheers...

 

[Spidey]

A good punch in the mouth might help. Relax, its sarcasm.

...look Mister...not gonna watch another one of yer fights in the 'Green Mile'...those ole ladies never had a chance:crying: ...but ya did git us outta the bill...when ya yelled...'RUN!'...yer da best damn flyin partner I ever saw...cheers!

 

[Spidey]

I've got the "big picture" . . . the macro and the micro. I've been the businessman AND the labor. I was here in 2001 and I'm here now.

If you think that 7-10 pilots leaving every month is simply the guys who want to fly widebodies or work for a legacy, you are mistaken.

Nearly every FO who has been here less than two years is looking elsewhere. The real hemmorhage hasn't even begun yet. (and the TWA and AMR guys haven't even gotten the call yet!). Gonna be some real interesting days around here.

It's not just the former Legacy guys, either. The Regional guys recognize a regional contract and regional airline management tactics, and don't want any part of it either.

Regional contract = regional turnover and attrition. Pretty simple stuff.

Management waited too long- they should have gotten a fair a year two years ago, when it was offered. To save a few million in payroll costs, they are destroying the glue that was holding this thing together, and that isn't going to come back.

Regards,

TW

UPS, FedEX, SWA, CO, etal are hiring like big dogs...it's more a function of greener pastures out there flying big jets, etc...the TA and all it entails may some effect...it's just like prior to 9-11...the majors, legacies were hiring and our applicants had less experience...did some TA cause that...no...so, yeh we have people leaving, but it is not strictly due to the TA-tho it has some influence-people wouldn't be leaving if their weren't other places with brown uniforms...and believe me, I want the best dam contract we can get, like the rest of us...you just have to not get insanely tunnel-visioned and blame it for everything (tho it does affect global warming)...it's gonna work out...and if it doesn't, you have many options available if it ain't good for you ...and I'd love to not have to teach someone who is replacing someone we just got done training...and I don't fool and rarely spin...and I'm what your second paragraph means...I'm sure it's salient tho...cheers...

[/quote]...it's a fickle world in the flyin bidness...and it's a very small world...which is either good or bad dependin how ya lead yer life...an ole pilot told me a when you were probably...ah, who cares...you know what yer doin...

 

[Ty Webb]

Believe me I wanted to. Figured that wouldn't help the cause much though.

A moron like that should be steered to the sections dealing with "Traning Failures", "Grievance and Discipline", the loss of a window or aisle seat durign deadhead, the failure to secure better hotels, and ask him how he's going to enjoy flying single-pilot operations when the FO pay goes to $38./hr and all they can get are flight instructors and regional FO's, who leave as soon as they get the call from the next airline. And, finally, doesn't he think it's about time to demand some self-respect?

And, if none of those work, THEN punch him in the mouth. :smash:

TW

 

[Ty Webb]

...it's a fickle world in the flyin bidness...and it's a very small world...which is either good or bad dependin how ya lead yer life...an ole pilot told me a when you were probably...ah, who cares...you know what yer doin...

Why is it that the most intelligent posts seem to be written after 2 a.m. :erm: ?


Just remember "Bre'r Rabbit", Chief.

"T-y" just might be the first and last letters of one of the characters of that story . . .

 

[Flying Colors]

FO payrates

I don't believe FO payrates should be an issue looking at this TA2. Not comparing Airtran with a legacy carrier and looking long term, FO's can expected $100/hr at 12 longevity after the 4th year of the TA2. Now I can understand some other aspects of the TA2 is up for dabate, but if fear being in the right seat of B717/B737 is not good enough pay wise with years of service then perhaps moving over to Continental starting off at $30 would be a better move for you.

I am just simply saying FO payrates are not as bad as everyone bytches them out to be.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't believe FO payrates should be an issue looking at this TA2. Not comparing Airtran with a legacy carrier and looking long term, FO's can expected $100/hr at 12 longevity after the 4th year of the TA2.

Why on earth would you pick those numbers to focus on? That's called a "red herring". There are probably three people on the seniority list who those rates apply to.

What you need to look at are the rates a pilot can expect to be paid here for flying a 737 in years 1-5 and compare it not just with what other airlines are paying, but what gains they are likely to achieve under the life of this contract.

If this is all you think you're worth, maybe YOU should leave, and take your low expectations with YOU.

P.S., here's your @ss . . . . . take it with you.


.

 

[Lear70]

I don't believe FO payrates should be an issue looking at this TA2.

You either don't work here, or you're a senior Captain who, unlike the majority of your peers, doesn't care about the F/O's. (most of the CA's here do).

Not comparing Airtran with a legacy carrier and looking long term, FO's can expected $100/hr at 12 longevity after the 4th year of the TA2.

OK, so let's say the average F/O is now 30 years old (on the low-side, it's probably closer to 35). YOU are saying that F/O's should be happy that, when they're 42 years old with 12 years at a MAJOR airline, they should be *happy* to *finally* be making $100 an hour.

When every other major airline out there except for Spirit, Midwest, Frontier, and USA3000 (all of which are barely eeking out a profit), will make $100 an hour by year 5-7? Under BANKRUPTCY wages in most cases?

Whatever you're smoking, you need to pass it. We need to be making close to six figures NOW in our mid-30's to start saving for college funds for the kids and retirement plans for ourselves. 401(k)'s aren't going to cut it and $50-60 an hour is what we could have made staying at a regional, NOT what we should be making at a MAJOR AIRLINE!

Now I can understand some other aspects of the TA2 is up for dabate, but if fear being in the right seat of B717/B737 is not good enough pay wise with years of service then perhaps moving over to Continental starting off at $30 would be a better move for you.

Perhaps you should wake up and realize that the pilots at AirTran aren't interested in making another change of carrier unless they have NO other option.

Therefore, if fear of being in the right seat here is not good enough pay-wise, then perhaps we should GROW A SET OF BALLS (as most everyone on this board is demonstrating quite well) and negotiate something that's fair and livable.

I am just simply saying FO payrates are not as bad as everyone bytches them out to be.

And I'm saying you're living in a fantasy land where you don't have to live with them, whether it's still living in the basement with your mom and dad, sitting in the left seat somewhere, or sitting in an office in Orlando or Atlanta.

 

[Flying Colors]

Okay, Just debating on the FO pay issue. What exacting should Airtran FO's make. And where is that going to come from. I don't think its going to come out of our CEO's pocket. It's more than likely going to come from some where else like the 12.5% the company will contributing to our 401k, vacation pay, Captain's pay. I notice union dues have been reduce as well. I have not decide which way to go but, I just don't want to be in the same situation as our flight attendants with there contract where they were offer something reject it only years later to ratify something that was a whole lot worse. Can you all tell me we can get something better than whats being offered pending a vote no. I have to wait another 3 years for something else to be voted on while everyone elses pay is going up. Excuse me for my pessimism but everyone on that board like a typical politician was out for themselves and its going to be no different than the next group going in.
And btw I'm not smoking anything, I'm just being realistic.