AirTran T.A. = Vote NO

[Flying Colors]

If this is all you think you're worth, maybe YOU should leave, and take your low expectations with YOU.

I've been here almost 3 years and I'm not going anywhere. In fact Ty Webb I'm waiting for you guys to bail so I can move up the list and upgrade quicker.

 

[Just thinking]

life beyond pay...

Beyond the fact that the pay rates for FO are below the industry standard... who do you want to recruit? Do you want ab-initio pilots signed to a five year contract? Most significant impact that this TA poses to this pilot group is SCOPE and work rules that take quantum leaps backwards and diminishes all of the hard work that this pilot group has worked to gain. Imagine a more inadequate reserve system where your time is wasted, your flying is diminished (SCOPE), pay is reduced and your quality of life will further errode. Think you are safe as an FO off of reserve now? Not when the seniority list starts sliding backwards because of the exodus of pilots leaving for different pastures and low and behold the reserve system is looming large in your rear view mirror. SCOPE alone should be enough for every pilot to throw it out immediately.

 

[hindsight2020]

I've followed the Airtran threads for a while, since along with DAL, I've considered Airtran a place to apply in the future, and be able to live in ATL as a domicile. I agree the FO rate needs to come up to make it competitive, and I think the arguments made here are sound. I also agree the work rules need to be watched out for.

My question as an outsider, and potential applicant some years down the road, to those in the know is what posture have you seen between those who live in ATL and those that commute? From my uninformed observation it seems that concessions aside, living in base would still be a huge incentive not to jump ship, particularly when the income potential on the FO side for many of the majors you'd be likely to lateral-move to don't pay that much more, and you'd be commuting on top of that. Now, I can see why for a commuter, the decision to bail out at the 2 year point would be easier. Is there a distinct division line in your pilot group based on whether you commute or not? I'm just wondering if this is an underlying issue for the FOs, since according to APC 60% (I think it used to read 70%) of 'Tran pilots commute. I know if I was faced with such decision, the commute or live in base deal would be a HUGE factor, maybe the biggest one, barring a lowering of payscale to regional levels and uprade times a 'la American Eagle obviously.

Thanks in advance for the gouge.

 

[likeitis]

Are you really that clueless? AirTran could increase the pay for pilots immediately by a third and the casm would hardly budge. You can't see the difference between pilots and F/A's? You guys could get much better than this TA. Start info picketing, get a strike vote out with a high percentage in favor and lastly start preparing for a strike. Joe will not respect you unless start acting like you deserve a respectable contract. Joe and most people in this industry don't think you guys are capable of withdrawing services.

Trying to play nice obviously isn't working, you need to start acting like you have the higher ground in which you currently occupy instead of treading water in the swamp of which you are currently projecting. The recall vote sure helped get your head above water though and is a excellent start. Now get the TA voted down

 

[DougCorp-9]

What he said.

 

[Lear70]

Okay, Just debating on the FO pay issue. What exacting should Airtran FO's make.

Anything less than industry average is simply unacceptable.

Personally, I believe it's a farce that they wouldn't even raise the F/O rates IN AN AMOUNT EQUAL TO INFLATION since they stopped increasing in 2004!

See the chart I posted on my web page. That data comes directly from the U.S. Dept of Labor, and is accurate to within a penny to what our pay rates in 2004 would be equivalent to today's dollar.

Then compare them to the T.A. rates and see if you think that's fair, considering we've been profitable this entire time.

And where is that going to come from. I don't think its going to come out of our CEO's pocket. It's more than likely going to come from some where else like the 12.5% the company will contributing to our 401k, vacation pay, Captain's pay.

Another incorrect assumption from people buying into the standard line: "The pie is only so big."

You have to remember, THE COMPANY MADE THAT PIE. They're the ones who said "We only have X amount of dollars for the pilots in this contract, even though we're making XXX over here." What that means is that you're accepting, at face value, that the dollar amount for total increase in pilot costs is A FIXED NUMBER.

Remember, that number started out in the negative. Then became CASM-neutral. Now has increased but not anywhere equivalent to inflation. Obviously the number they put out is flexible, so the pay increases don't HAVE to come at the expense of other contract sections.

That's called "negotiations", and the fact that we gave so much ground in other sections to not even get COLA raises from 2004 rates is a direct failure of the NPA to stand their ground. That ground-giving started when AP got personally involved in negotiations and is, by and large, why he's scheduling his recurrent ground training now.

I notice union dues have been reduce as well. I have not decide which way to go but, I just don't want to be in the same situation as our flight attendants with there contract where they were offer something reject it only years later to ratify something that was a whole lot worse. Can you all tell me we can get something better than whats being offered pending a vote no. I have to wait another 3 years for something else to be voted on while everyone elses pay is going up.

No one said 3 years. We'll be back at the table inside of 6-8 months, in the March-May time period, but THIS time we'll be there with the pilot group much more organized.

There ARE no guarantees. There are no guarantees that we're going to upgrade. There are no guarantees that we won't have another terrorist attack and we'll all get furloughed. There are no guarantees that we're going to double the raises at the table.

I've said it before: if you're willing to take it to the mat, do YOUR part to show a unified front, and stand your ground when it's time, then vote NO and we WILL get a VASTLY improved T.A. next time around, it's simply a matter of leverage.

If you're not willing to work for it, then yeah, you might as well vote Yes and turn this company into a regional airline in terms of work rules, take the money, and hope and pray that someone else will fight your battle for you and get some work rules back 6-8 years from now.

Personally, my principles won't allow that. I came here under the existing contract and expect either that or BETTER when my company is profitable. Anything less is selling both MYSELF and my fellow pilots short.

Excuse me for my pessimism but everyone on that board like a typical politician was out for themselves and its going to be no different than the next group going in.

Depends who's at the helm. I've "taken one for the team" more than once, as have several other people volunteering this time around.

This ain't AirTran of 1997, this is a major airline with pilots from all walks of life looking to make this company their career.

And btw I'm not smoking anything, I'm just being realistic.

Everyone's "reality" is different. I think you're a bit on the pessimistic side, but I can understand that with the give-backs of the last year.

 

[Lear70]

Think you are safe as an FO off of reserve now? Not when the seniority list starts sliding backwards because of the exodus of pilots leaving for different pastures and low and behold the reserve system is looming large in your rear view mirror.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention in the rebuttal.

Reserve coverage increases from 10% to 12% at Date Of Signing.

If you just got off reserve, you'll likely slide BACK into reserve, WITH the new reserve rules. Enjoy!

SCOPE alone should be enough for every pilot to throw it out immediately.

Amen, brother! :beer:

 

[Ty Webb]

I've been here almost 3 years and I'm not going anywhere. In fact Ty Webb I'm waiting for you guys to bail so I can move up the list and upgrade quicker.

Don't count on it . . . I've got chunks of guys like you in my stool! :smash:


.

 

[EMBATP]

here is another way to think of the fact that we dont want to throw anyone, including f/o's under the bus....we dont have to take it out if the companies bottom line...management will get bonuses like they always do , so its our job to make joe's, steve's, bob's and klaus's bonuses a lot smaller....i am sure that there bonuses are already accounted for...so the numbers will even out...right?....

 

[Flying Colors]

Appreciate your intelligent response Lear70, it's alot better than the thoughtless words of Ty Webb who honestly needs to take a chill pill. I'm just looking for some info on the matter before I vote and you have provided that. With your knowledge and tenacity maybe you should run. I came over from Pinnacle too so I know what a $hitty contract is. I just don't like someone tell me how to vote, I can do that on my own. I'll be at one of this roadshows to get some questions asked.
In addition to the TA2, the info I have read came from BOD Cover Letter dated 9/2/07 on the union website.

 

[Flying Colors]

This is my last posting for a long while

Ty Webb I do know who you are, so insulting me with your petty limited language while sitting safely behind your monitor won't help your cause.

 

[RadioClash]

...look Mister...not gonna watch another one of yer fights in the 'Green Mile'...those ole ladies never had a chance:crying: ...but ya did git us outta the bill...when ya yelled...'RUN!'...yer da best damn flyin partner I ever saw...cheers!

Those "Shirley Temples" can make you do some crazy things in a bar...get out on the road, a few shirley temples, your buds...woo hoo craziness!

 

[scarlet]

I just don't like someone tell me how to vote.....

BUT the scope SUCKS....Let people figure it out on their own...

The NO people are always louder!!!

 

[Lear70]

I'm just looking for some info on the matter before I vote and you have provided that.

That's all any of us can ask you to do. Just make sure to get BOTH sides of the equation; the roadshows are distributing information that's just plain inaccurate.

With your knowledge and tenacity maybe you should run.

You know... I've been thinking about it. I *SWORE* I would never get involved in union work again after PCL. Just too much political B.S. and I just wanted to come here, fly my trip, and go home. I knew we were in negotiations, and I really wasn't expecting Southwest or DAL Widebody pay rates.

I thought they'd keep the work rules they had, maybe tweak a FEW items, give us raises equivalent to inflation or industry average, and otherwise leave us alone, not wanting to mess up a good operation.

When T.A. 1 came out and no one really spoke up about it, I felt like I had no choice, just to protect MY OWN career, as well as everyone else's. Now I know I'm not alone; there's a HUGE number of guys that feel the SAME WAY, they just needed to know they aren't alone, other people feel the same way, and give them the support they need to vote their conscience.

If I have to get more involved to keep that going, I guess I will. It's up to the pilot group to decide they want me to run and nominate me; if they do, I'll serve.

I came over from Pinnacle too so I know what a $hitty contract is. I just don't like someone tell me how to vote, I can do that on my own.

Well, fo shizzle, my Pinnacle Nizzle... lol. :beer:

Seriously, that's what I don't want to see here. I LEFT PCL because of the work rules and we both took a hefty pay cut to come here. You more than likely know me which means you know I sat reserve for 3 years as a CA, 9 hours of ready reserve a day, 10 days off a month, and I don't want to see that kind of life again (I don't think any of us do). This T.A. won't be far off that (6 hours a day RR and 12 days off).

I'll be at one of this roadshows to get some questions asked.
In addition to the TA2, the info I have read came from BOD Cover Letter dated 9/2/07 on the union website.

Download the bulletpoints from my website, look at the 30-page rebuttal and see where those references are in the T.A., and ask about them in the roadshow.

If they say they won't do that or it's inaccurate, look at the T.A. and ask them to show you WHERE it says the company CAN'T do those things.

If you still want to vote yes after that, I can't stop you. Just remember you're within 6 months of upgrade likely, and a YES vote on this T.A. is likely a 30% pay CUT as a reserve CA for the next 3 years or more with the increase to 12% reserve coverage and the new reserve rules. uke:

Thanks for listening to both sides of the equation!

 

[Spidey]

Why is it that the most intelligent posts seem to be written after 2 a.m. :erm: ?


Just remember "Bre'r Rabbit", Chief.

"T-y" just might be the first and last letters of one of the characters of that story . . .

..."Brer Rabbit" and "Chunks of Guys" in "Stools":erm: ...yer right about intelligent posts...mmm...never let emotions get in the way of a great performance...and I ain't the Chief of anything...tho Chief Illiwek lives forever...cheers...

 

[Ty Webb]

..."Brer Rabbit" and "Chunks of Guys" in "Stools":erm: ...yer right about intelligent posts...

They're intelligent, alright . . . they are just two references that are lost on you. . . must be that Champaign edumacation . . . .

Feel free to respond after midnight, when your wife goes to bed, and you get your computer priviledges back . . . .heh-heh.


TW




.

 

[Spidey]

They're intelligent, alright . . . they are just two references that are lost on you. . . must be that Champaign edumacation . . . .

Feel free to respond after midnight, when your wife goes to bed, and you get your computer priviledges back . . . .heh-heh.


TW



.

...it's a New York education...kinda like what them Cowboys gave the Giants last night...and it is not lost at all...just kinda infantile...my kids have even outgrown those kinds of things...uh oh here comes my wife gotta goooooo..................

 

[Flying Colors]

The Bandwagon Effect

Well I have just finish reading the TA2 to its entirely, you really do need a lawyer to decode all the jargon crap in here. I am officially jumping the bandwagon to a HELL NO vote.
Hopefully we take a lesson from the flight attendants and don't screw ourselves.

 

[j41driver]

Hopefully we take a lesson from the flight attendants and don't screw ourselves.

Not sure I follow....

 

[fletch717]

The flight attendants voted in a new contract with terrible work rules for a pay raise. Very similar to our situation.