AirTran T.A. = Vote NO

[Lear70]

Well I have just finish reading the TA2 to its entirely, you really do need a lawyer to decode all the jargon crap in here. I am officially jumping the bandwagon to a HELL NO vote.
Hopefully we take a lesson from the flight attendants and don't screw ourselves.

Good for you!

Glad you took the time to really read it, spread the word!

 

[MGT3]

I have not decide which way to go but, I just don't want to be in the same situation as our flight attendants with there contract where they were offer something reject it only years later to ratify something that was a whole lot worse.

It is obvious from posts like this one that not very many people in this debate were employed at AirTran when the FA contract negotiations were going on, and too many people are buying the AP version of events.

The previous contract the FAs had was horrible. There was very few pay protections or positive work rules for line holders, let alone reserves. The union bought into the whole limited pie argument and chose to sell the reserves down the river for better workrules and pay for line holders. This of course was no big deal because the average FA stayed on Reserve about 3 months at the very most. Well guess what, two years later, suprise, surprise, reserve for FAs is anywhere from 10 to 14 months. It did not take long for the company to figure out that if they built less hard lines and pumped up the reserve lines as flying expanded that they did not have to pay for wx cancelations, deadheading, etc etc. If you think this management is not going to explore every dark corner and grey area of what ever contract we sign, you have not been paying attention for the last two years.

Next time you are on a trip with an FA with a 7XXXX or earlier senority, ask them about their old contract compared to their current one. Maybe they should have signed their first TA, but the contract they lived under was horrendous. There is no reason that WE need to sign a TA that is a step back in every single area except sub inflation pay raises.

I can taxi slow, but I can not guarentee that I can make up 5 minutes of door time on every single leg.

All that being said, I am happy to see Flying Colors has come over to the NO camp.

Vote No! Vote Often!!

GT

 

[BagelBomber]

This is for the folks who are on the fence with their vote or just plain voting Yes.

You have to ask yourself a few questions:
1. What is worse; TA2 being voted in by 51% or TA2 being voted down by 51%?

I believe it is the latter.

2. From talking to other pilots on the line or in the crewroom, does it sound like this TA2 will pass and be ratified?

It sounds to me like TA2 will be voted down. It may not be by a large margin, but that seems to be the overall sentiment from the members I have talked to. Ask around.

3. Assuming TA2 will be voted down, will your vote be more beneficial to YOU PERSONALLY by voting Yes or NO?

If you vote Yes, will your vote be heard? Absolutely. Will your vote benefit you personally? Absolutely NOT. Quite the opposite.
If you vote NO, will your vote benefit you personally? Absolutely. If this TA gets voted down by a small margin, we will have no negotiating leverage when we go back to the table because the company will just want to fix a couple things to get back that extra couple percent. At that point, we should just beg the company to give us back TA2 because it won't be worth the 6-12 months it will take to get nothing more meaningful. Having TA2 voted down by a large margin sends a clear message to Management that this thing ain't even close. You need to get real.

Make your vote really count.

Vote NO.

 

[Ty Webb]

I like that slogan . . .

"Make your vote count . . . . . . vote NO!"


.

 

[Lear70]

Bagel has an excellent point, and has been my main concern for the last few weeks as I've watched people's resolution waiver from a strong NO vote.

I do believe the worst thing we could do is ratify it. If it passed, my apps would go out ASAP, as I watched the next 8-12 months unfold so I could bail if my fears come to pass.

Next worst: we reject it by a 55/45 margin (which is my prediction right now). This leaves us in a TERRIBLE bargaining position and sets up the next leadership group for failure. All management has to do is sit by and wait and the new NPA leaders have to somehow rally almost half the pilot group who voted yes. Terrible prospect.

Kill it hard, or get it as good as you can and hope for the best. I've heard that somewhere before. Some event I was at recently in our nation's capital... can't seem to recall.

Tell your friends, your initial new-hire classmates, spread the word in any way possible, just watch yourself... big brother IS watching.

 

[Ty Webb]

According to poll at a very recent Recurrent class, they were 100% voting against..... surprising, but encouraging.


.

 

[AFcitrus]

My guess is 75% NO - 25% yes. With somewhere around 80-85% voting.

Here's my logic.. I figure we will see about the same turnout as we did in the recall vote. The recall was almost as important as voting on this TA. If 22% of the pilots couldn't be bothered to to take 2 minutes to vote in the recall, only a small percentage more (2-7%) will vote in the TA vote.

I have not talked to any pilots who voted for the recall who plan on voting YES on the TA. I have, however, talked to a few who were against the TA but thought that voting out our leadership at such an important time wasn't prudent.

Since the turnout should be about the same (or a little higher) the same numbers will vote against the TA that voted in favor of the recall - around 71.5%(average between Pres. and VP). On top of that add a few percentage points for those I speak of above who were planning on voting NO for the TA but wanted the leadership to stay.

Hence, somewhere around 75% NO vote....Remember where you heard it.

 

[PCL_128]

I have not talked to any pilots who voted for the recall who plan on voting YES on the TA.

I flew with a guy who voted YES on the recall but changed his vote to YES on the TA. However, he was very senior, so I wasn't surprised that he's in support of the TA.

 

[Ty Webb]

I flew with a guy who voted YES on the recall but changed his vote to YES on the TA. However, he was very senior, so I wasn't surprised that he's in support of the TA.

Bet he couldn't fly worth a sh!t, too . . . and is probably on a "list" somewhere . . . . it seems to be a recurring theme.

.

 

[PCL_128]

Bet he couldn't fly worth a sh!t, too . . . and is probably on a "list" somewhere . . . . it seems to be a recurring theme.

Not on "the list." He was a full-term striker. I gave him Lear's rebuttal summary, so hopefully he'll read it and change his vote back.

 

[Ty Webb]

If that is the case, more power to him, and I hope he'll make the right choice this time around, too.

.

 

[j41driver]

Bet he couldn't fly worth a sh!t, too . . . and is probably on a "list" somewhere . . . . it seems to be a recurring theme.

.

Welcome to my month...fun, fun, fun!

 

[borntwofly]

I read TA2 in its entirety, compared it to our current contract, researched 5th years FO pays in the industry and one thing finally sealed the deal. Scope is bad, yes, but not a huge credible threat (some might feel different, but I don't). Proposed 5th year FO pay is $7 below industry average (that is a bit retarded and irresponsible for a successful company providing a great product). There is a lot of little give and take (not worth mentioning and that is why it is called "negotiations"). What finally made the decision for me is this. If I sit reserve, which I will for more than 3 years as a Captain, and I don't fly, get Ready Reserve or sick out I get paid nothing. NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YGBFSM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I never worked a job and never will where they have me show up to work only to say, "Sorry, we don't need you" and send me home without pay. This ain't f$&#*$g charity. If anyone is on the fence about this TA, realize that for all the dangers that exist in this poorly written contract, a whole bunch of us will be giving away a day of our lives at a time and getting nothing in return.

NO! is the only answer to this TA!

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

I wanted to choke my FO this week who voted YES on TA. He's about to hold upgrade. His thinking was:
company will slow growth if we vote NO. I think he is already living on those tripple diggit CA hourly rates and thinks it's a raise no matter what. When asked about the reserve rules he said "oh well, reserve is never supposed to be fun anyways"

I must say one thing, Company has done a great job hiring these passive retards.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I read TA2 in its entirety, compared it to our current contract, researched 5th years FO pays in the industry and one thing finally sealed the deal. Scope is bad, yes, but not a huge credible threat (some might feel different, but I don't). Proposed 5th year FO pay is $7 below industry average (that is a bit retarded and irresponsible for a successful company providing a great product). There is a lot of little give and take (not worth mentioning and that is why it is called "negotiations"). What finally made the decision for me is this. If I sit reserve, which I will for more than 3 years as a Captain, and I don't fly, get Ready Reserve or sick out I get paid nothing. NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YGBFSM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I never worked a job and never will where they have me show up to work only to say, "Sorry, we don't need you" and send me home without pay. This ain't f$&#*$g charity. If anyone is on the fence about this TA, realize that for all the dangers that exist in this poorly written contract, a whole bunch of us will be giving away a day of our lives at a time and getting nothing in return.

NO! is the only answer to this TA!

I agree with your no vote.

How is it that the company will pay you nothing for reserve? We still would get monthly gaurantee - or did I miss something here?

 

[FIREMAN]

"negotiations"). What finally made the decision for me is this. If I sit reserve, which I will for more than 3 years as a Captain, and I don't fly, get Ready Reserve or sick out I get paid nothing. NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YGBFSM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
INO! is the only answer to this TA!

Please reread that part of the TA2. Ready Reserve pays 4 hours evan with no flight. If you call in sick after being given a flight or RR you get paid sick time.

 

[Bruiser]

Activism climbing at airline unions
http://www.topix.net/content/trb/200...airline-unions


Activism climbing at airline unions

By Julie Johnsson
Chicago Tribune
September 15, 2007

United Airlines pilots have put a new face on labor unrest - it's a giant inflatable rat holding bags of money, the pilots' latest universal description of upper management.

United's unionized pilots last month used the rodent to greet passengers at the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport as they were checking in, the latest in a series of stepped up public attacks on company management as union leaders face key elections Oct. 9.

After six years of relative calm, union activism is escalating across the airline industry. And it's not just management on the hot seat. Rank-and-file employees, seething over losing one-third or more of their pay and management's perceived greed, are striking back at the easiest targets too: the union leaders who agreed to those concessions.

As emotions rise among workers, so does the pressure on union leaders to take a harder line with management, or be replaced by someone who will.
'If Attila the Hun were running he'd be elected,' said Michael Boyd, president of the Boyd Group, an Evergreen, Colo.-based consulting firm.

It's a volatile situation that appears to be building into one of the labor paroxysms that seize major airlines each decade. The last spasm, in the late 1990s and 2000, resulted in rich contract concessions that helped speed some carriers, including United, into bankruptcy when the market for air travel collapsed following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

Momentum swung labor's way, some experts say, when Northwest Airlines pilots last month won time-and-a-half overtime pay from a management team known for its unyielding stance on labor issues.

Pilot shortages had forced Northwest to cancel thousands of flights during June and July. Executives blamed the weather, air-system congestion and pilot absenteeism for the disruptions; pilots said inadequate staffing was at fault.

'Every five to seven years the baseball bat changes hands,' said Kit Darby, an airline pilot who is president of Atlanta-based AIR Inc., a firm that specializes in pilot recruiting and job placement. 'I think we have the official changing of the baseball bat.'

Already pilot contract talks are under way at American, Continental and Southwest Airlines and are expected to set the tone for the rest of the industry through the end of the decade.

Negotiations at American, the world's largest carrier, are of particular interest to other airlines and unions because of the ill will that has crept into labor relations since unions voluntarily gave up pay in 2003 to keep the carrier out of bankruptcy.

American's pilots say they are in no mood to be conciliatory.

They are angered by incentive plans that have granted rich payouts to senior executives but not to other employees.

In fact, talks ground to a halt this summer after pilots voted out union chief Ralph Hunter, who presided over the 2003 talks. Lloyd Hill, who replaced Hunter, has vowed to take a more aggressive stance. Negotiations are set to resume Oct. 2.

'Across the industry, pilots are done giving up [pay] and we're ready to recoup some of the losses,' said David Aldrich, a Miami-based pilot for American and a spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association, the independent union representing the carrier's 8,325 pilots. 'Management's had time to fix the store since 2001. It's time to stop giving away our services.'

Airline executives counter that any large-scale giveback to employees would threaten their financial recovery, especially with oil prices reaching record highs.

'We're in a difficult position in that regard at the moment,' said Mark Burdette, vice president for employee relations at American Airlines. 'We're having to find ways of basically educating employees on the fact that there's been a fundamental restructuring of the industry. The folks who've gone through bankruptcy have undercut us on unit labor costs.'

AirlineForecasts LLC, a Virginia-based market research firm, estimates that a 10 percent increase in labor expenses would cost American about $700 million per year and United about $400 million per year, potentially wiping out much of the profits the carriers would otherwise earn.
'Emotions are high, expectations are high,' Darby said. 'The worst situation is if you have very high [worker] expectations and the company's bottom line doesn't support it.'

There is no imminent threat of a strike at American or other carriers. After all, federal law limits pilots and other unionized airline workers from job actions until talks wind their way through the National Mediation Board. Even then, the president or Congress could intervene, as President Bill Clinton did in 1997 to block a strike by pilots at American.

Even so, pilots, literally and figuratively, have their hands on the throttle at major airlines and can disrupt operations just by sticking to the letter of their contract, analysts say. More than any other employee group, they determine whether flight schedules flow smoothly. They cannot be outsourced or easily replaced with new hires. And with staffing leaner than it has ever been, carriers depend on pilots to volunteer for extra duty.

Just how testy labor relations get at United will depend in large part on who its pilots choose to replace Mark Bathurst, a United director who is stepping down as chairman of the United chapter of the Air Line Pilots Association when his term expires next month.

It's not certain who is in the running to replace Bathurst, since campaigning is generally done in pilots lounges, over dinner or via phone. Only leaders from the airline's eight major domiciles, or home bases, are eligible to vote. And even they may not know who's in the running until nominating speeches begin after lunch on Oct. 9.

Insiders think there's a good chance United's pilots will turn to a more activist leader, like their peers at American Airlines.

If ALPA falters it could hand critical momentum to a dissident group, known as the United Pilots Association, that seeks to displace it as the group representing pilots at the nation's second-largest carrier. So far the upstarts have collected ballots from about 1,500 pilots, far short of the 3,700 ballots they need to be certified by labor officials to hold a run-off election to challenge the incumbent union.

'Is ALPA starting to listen at United Airlines? Yes, I think they are,' said Karl Richcreek, an Airbus A320 captain who is president of the United Pilots Association. 'The discontent among pilots is huge.'

Adding to the pressure for United Chief Executive Glenn Tilton to defuse the labor issue is that for the first time in United's history all of the company's union contracts will be open for renegotiation at the same time in 2010.

'What's important for all of our stakeholders is to have a sustainable company that can compete in a challenging and unpredictable environment, such as one that has fuel at $80 a barrel,' said United spokeswoman Jean Medina. 'We are focused on making the right decisions for United and all of our constituents. We meet with our employees regularly and will continue to discuss issues that are mutually beneficial.'

[email protected]
Copyright © 2007 Chicago Tribune, All Rights Reserved.

 

[TV9Driver]

and yet we are about to vote in a concessionary contract.....(sigh)

 

[Ty Webb]

and yet we are about to vote in a concessionary contract.....(sigh)

Fear not. The odds in Vegas right now are 3:2 against it passing . . . . In fact, I'm reading it on the "big board" right now at Caesar's. . . . finally, a decent layover, for a change.

TW

. . .Sent wirelessly via my I-Phone . . . . from Vegas, BABY!

 

[CitationLover]

. . .Sent wirelessly via my I-Phone . . . . from Vegas, BABY!

Tell OJ hello.