AirTran pilots will own the SW upgrades

[-9Capt]

didn't get a 30% pay increase or a new profit sharing plan.

In exchange for your profit sharing we lost our B-fund and 401k match. I'd have to do the math on that but I'm pretty sure is a losing deal for us.

 

[Ualexpress]

Which numbers are BS? I never said all of your captains will upgrade in 2015. I specifically said they will have the chance to upgrade as there are only about 200 captains on your side that are junior to our most junior captain.

There are 430 AT captains that are junior to SWA's most junior captain as of 1-1-15 not 200. The other 470 (for a total of 900 captains on the AT side) that are senior enough to hold captain on 1-1-15 will require vacancies to be able to upgrade, which I am sure will take 2015 and 2016 to get through. The other 430 are slotted in at 1 to 3 ratio (1AT to 3SWA). According to Jaime's my seniority website the most junior AT captain will upgrade in 2023 with a no fleet growth scenario. Of course if the fleet grows that date will trend downwards.

 

[freightdogfred]

It is when a large number of senior pilots to you, senior enough to be captains, are transitioned over as FOs.

His global seniority did not change. He was a loooong way away from upgrade prior, and he's a looong way from it now. Actually, now he's 3% closer. Note the 1 less o in long.

 

[redflyer65]

His global seniority did not change. He was a loooong way away from upgrade prior, and he's a looong way from it now. Actually, now he's 3% closer. Note the 1 less o in long.

No change in the upgrade date. None. So no need to add or remove "o's".

 

[redflyer65]

In exchange for your profit sharing we lost our B-fund and 401k match. I'd have to do the math on that but I'm pretty sure is a losing deal for us.

For 2012 - Match 9.3% plus Profit Sharing 6.2% = 15.5%.

For 2013 - Match 9.3% plus Profit Sharing >10% (estimated) will equal a combination above 20%.

Probably not a losing deal.

 

[bluesideup1]

There are 430 AT captains that are junior to SWA's most junior captain as of 1-1-15 not 200. The other 470 (for a total of 900 captains on the AT side) that are senior enough to hold captain on 1-1-15 will require vacancies to be able to upgrade, which I am sure will take 2015 and 2016 to get through. The other 430 are slotted in at 1 to 3 ratio (1AT to 3SWA). According to Jaime's my seniority website the most junior AT captain will upgrade in 2023 with a no fleet growth scenario. Of course if the fleet grows that date will trend downwards.

And just about every one of them will make A LOT more than they would have if they had stayed at Airtran.

By the time the bids close at the end of the year there will be closer to 200 AT captains that could not hold captain. But lets use your number instead and you can tell me how:

800 of your pilots getting a 30 percent raise immediately upon transition is a bad thing?

Then tell me how those 470 captains upgrading in the next two years and getting a 35% raise is a bad thing?

Using your numbers those 430 AT pilots that will not be able to hold captain in Jan 2015 are all they have been talking about. Are they taking a pay cut? Hardly. Are they making A LOT more than they did just 3 years ago before the purchase? YES.

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before while THE VAST MAJORITY OF AT PILOTS GOT OR WILL GET HUGE RAISES IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Am I wrong?

 

[zman]

And just about every one of them will make A LOT more than they would have if they had stayed at Airtran.

By the time the bids close at the end of the year there will be closer to 200 AT captains that could not hold captain. But lets use your number instead and you can tell me how:

800 of your pilots getting a 30 percent raise immediately upon transition is a bad thing?

Then tell me how those 470 captains upgrading in the next two years and getting a 35% raise is a bad thing?

Using your numbers those 430 AT pilots that will not be able to hold captain in Jan 2015 are all they have been talking about. Are they taking a pay cut? Hardly. Are they making A LOT more than they did just 3 years ago before the purchase? YES.

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before while THE VAST MAJORITY OF AT PILOTS GOT OR WILL GET HUGE RAISES IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Am I wrong?

Who cares!! This new "SWAPA" pilot group will be divided and fragmented for a while. Just wait till all the lawsuits start flying at the end of the year. People have been holding off and waiting to sue (with the advice of their attorneys) for years cause they needed to wait till they saw how it would play out. I personally know someone that has waited years for this.

 

[freightdogfred]

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before while THE VAST MAJORITY OF AT PILOTS GOT OR WILL GET HUGE RAISES IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Am I wrong?

Not true. A vast number of them have recently unpgraded, or are in upgrade.
(I know, Airtran brought this to the table, not the pilots)

A new Atlanta base, which filled rather quickly with some senior peeps evidently is was quite popular. (I know, Airtran brought this to the table not the pilots)

It appears GK was more interested in eliminating one of his direct competitors that was lowering his yield in certain markets than he was in obtaining this stellar pilot group and it's big Atlanta hub, gates, planes, routes. The promised synergies, increased yields, added routes (not to mention a subsidiary whose performance numbers are a matter of record) have all allowed GK to exceed his 15% ROIC target, which theoretically will be reflected on your next profit sharing check so although it's not the big raise you're so pissed the Airtran F/O's got, it is something. When you were a kid did you yell when your brother or sister got a bigger slice of pie, or were you happy for them? Line holding Captains will take a pay cut in the transition. I've talked to a few of them and they confirm it, and many may not see the left seat again. I'm happy our transitioned F/O's got a raise. They deserve it, every one of them were damn good pilots, a 121 Captain prior to coming here. You couldn't get hired here unless you were, post-911. Although I'll prob take a pay cut, I'M HAPPY FOR THE GUYS WHO GOT A RAISE. I hope next Thanksgiving when you're eating turkey with your family you get the biggest slice of pie.

 

[twepilot]

Just for peoples planning...I won't be re-upgrading until I can be based in ATL. I'm sure I'll miss my left seat and being able to set the tone for my flights with my crew but, I refuse to re-upgrade just to commute to the likes of PHX, LAS, OAK, MDW, or BWI. Ain't gonna happen.

RV

 

[Ualexpress]

And just about every one of them will make A LOT more than they would have if they had stayed at Airtran.

By the time the bids close at the end of the year there will be closer to 200 AT captains that could not hold captain. But lets use your number instead and you can tell me how:

800 of your pilots getting a 30 percent raise immediately upon transition is a bad thing?

Then tell me how those 470 captains upgrading in the next two years and getting a 35% raise is a bad thing?

Using your numbers those 430 AT pilots that will not be able to hold captain in Jan 2015 are all they have been talking about. Are they taking a pay cut? Hardly. Are they making A LOT more than they did just 3 years ago before the purchase? YES.

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before while THE VAST MAJORITY OF AT PILOTS GOT OR WILL GET HUGE RAISES IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Am I wrong?

Blue,

The point of my post was not to argue who got the better deal so to speak. Some of the points you make are true, but I just wanted to throw out the actual captain numbers on this side of the partition that's all. I'll let the 5-10 of y'all arguing over who got the better deal continue the argument, which is an exercise in futility in my opinion. It's like arguing politics or religion. You are not gonna change each others mind so what's the point in wasting time. See you on the other side.

 

[freightdogfred]

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before

A lot of people who post here say GK's looking at further buying. If he does guess what? There's gonna be MORE people in front of you who weren't there before. So get ready to do some more pillow biting

 

[PCL_128]

AirTran pilots better hope there's not another merger. No other pilot group will be as cowardly and accept the seniority cram-down that AirTran pilots did, so when it's all said and done, they'll get a better integration, and the AirTran pilots will just watch their relative seniority fall yet further.

 

[-9Capt]

^^^^^

Correctamundo

 

[slaquer5]

AirTran pilots better hope there's not another merger. No other pilot group will be as cowardly and accept the seniority cram-down that AirTran pilots did, so when it's all said and done, they'll get a better integration, and the AirTran pilots will just watch their relative seniority fall yet further.

It will depend on who is acquired


Muse Air
Morris
ATA

AirTran

.?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Jetblue. Do they have any protections?

 

[-9Capt]

Nobody is going to fall for that BS again, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Make threats and ultimatums during negotiations then turn around and call it "hard negotiations" during the ensuing arbitration.

 

[madjack]

It's gonna be HAL

 

[Dan Roman]

It's gonna be HAL

Nice try! SWA really needs a relatively small International hub in the middle of the pacific that doesn't complement the SWA route structure at all, a fleet of Airbus's that SWA couldn't replace and labor unrest when all the SWA pilots get fenced out of the widebodies and inter-island! Other than that I'm sure it would be a great idea.

 

[Dan Roman]

And yes I knew you were jerking my chain!

 

[PCL_128]

It will depend on who is acquired


Muse Air
Morris
ATA

AirTran

.?

There aren't really that many options for you. JetBlue would be a disaster. SWA can't figure out how to manage a small fleet of 717s, let alone a larger fleet of Airbuses and Embraers. Alaska is too expensive and not interested. Spirit is drastically overpriced and also has a fleet of Airbuses. Etc.

Personally, I don't think another merger/acquisition is in the works or even on the distant horizon. And that's good news for AirTran pilots, because another merger would be a nightmare for them.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

For 2012 - Match 9.3% plus Profit Sharing 6.2% = 15.5%.

For 2013 - Match 9.3% plus Profit Sharing >10% (estimated) will equal a combination above 20%.

Probably not a losing deal.

For this year, it probably will be a wash (if you contributed anyway whether the employer did or not). If you didn't contribute yourself, AT's b-fund was a much better deal without a doubt and, even if you contributed the max, AT's deal could still be better. You got the percentage of your wages each paycheck even after you hit the max. Wn only pays til you max out, then uses your money from then on until March (I think) when they give you your 401k clean up check. Profit sharing is even worse, they hang onto your money for six months before it goes into your account. Even Wave and PCL understand the time value of money and would understand that having it now pays better than getting it later. I'd much rather have a fixed b-fund % as I earned it than have to use record profits to justify profit sharing.

I understand that's the way you've always done it so you don't know any different and even if there's a better way, it may not be worth the negotiating capital to improve it.

 

[madjack]

Tom W on our NC is pushing a B fund...mgmt needs to realize the pilots group is not like any other, the "me too" in re to i401k match and retirement benefits has kept SWA pilots behind in the industry.,,,that will make it harder for SWA to recruit quality pilots....

 

[Ty Webb]

the "me too" in re to i401k match and retirement benefits has kept SWA pilots behind in the industry.,,,that will make it harder for SWA to recruit quality pilots....

It's already so tough to recruit quality pilots that they had to go and buy 1800 of 'em.

 

[redflyer65]

For this year, it probably will be a wash (if you contributed anyway whether the employer did or not). If you didn't contribute yourself, AT's b-fund was a much better deal without a doubt and, even if you contributed the max, AT's deal could still be better. You got the percentage of your wages each paycheck even after you hit the max. Wn only pays til you max out, then uses your money from then on until March (I think) when they give you your 401k clean up check. Profit sharing is even worse, they hang onto your money for six months before it goes into your account. Even Wave and PCL understand the time value of money and would understand that having it now pays better than getting it later. I'd much rather have a fixed b-fund % as I earned it than have to use record profits to justify profit sharing.

I understand that's the way you've always done it so you don't know any different and even if there's a better way, it may not be worth the negotiating capital to improve it.

Let me clean up your post a little Luv.

Yes we do have to put in a minimum of 10% to get the match of 9.3%. That's were a B-fund is better because you don't HAVE to do anything. You'd be an idiot not to anyway, but I guess there could be extenuating circumstances that might come into play.

After you hit the max (17,500 or 23k above age 50), there is no 'waiting for your money' the match continues throughout the year. Captain's can max out all IRS limits and sometimes get a 'overage check' down the line.

Your right about Profit Sharing being 9 months arrears, but it's better than not getting squat.

Do we need to make some improvements? Absolutely and the NC is on it. I would rather have a B-fund like Delta with higher caps for the Captains.

All and all, it's not a bad problem to have...

I believe we may hit 12% profit sharing this year. That number for me would be north of 20k....just in PS alone. Combined with 34k in the 401k plan. Total for 2014 will be around 54k for a low level FO. How does that compare to AirTran?

 

[zman]

I was told by a SWAPA rep that they do want to drop the match and go for a B-fund that Delta and United have of 16%. I believe American is at 16% as well. If Swapa cannot fix reserve, retirement and pay when the company is posting record profits for the past 5 quarters then it is truly a useless union.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Let me clean up your post a little Luv.

Yes we do have to put in a minimum of 10% to get the match of 9.3%. That's were a B-fund is better because you don't HAVE to do anything. You'd be an idiot not to anyway, but I guess there could be extenuating circumstances that might come into play.

After you hit the max (17,500 or 23k above age 50), there is no 'waiting for your money' the match continues throughout the year. Captain's can max out all IRS limits and sometimes get a 'overage check' down the line.

Your right about Profit Sharing being 9 months arrears, but it's better than not getting squat.

Do we need to make some improvements? Absolutely and the NC is on it. I would rather have a B-fund like Delta with higher caps for the Captains.

All and all, it's not a bad problem to have...

I believe we may hit 12% profit sharing this year. That number for me would be north of 20k....just in PS alone. Combined with 34k in the 401k plan. Total for 2014 will be around 54k for a low level FO. How does that compare to AirTran?

Glad to hear it is different after crossing the partition. On the FL side, the match stops when you max out and you get a clean up contribution only up to 17.5k in late march. That's it, no match or contribution on the rest of your earnings past the time you max out.

 

[madjack]

I agree Ty, all the FATs I have flown with are great pilots! I meant in the next decade...

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I agree Ty, all the FATs I have flown with are great pilots! I meant in the next decade...

There aren't any FAT captains yet????? Do you mean jumpseat riders going to work in your senior bases ? Or are you a 9 year f/o that just upgraded?

 

[Ty Webb]

I agree Ty, all the FATs I have flown with are great pilots! I meant in the next decade...

Glad to hear it, MJ. I think the Pilot Groups at both airlines are probably more similar than anyone suspected. . . . Hopefully, at some point, everyone will figure that out.

 

[PCL_128]

Tom W on our NC is pushing a B fund...mgmt needs to realize the pilots group is not like any other, the "me too" in re to i401k match and retirement benefits has kept SWA pilots behind in the industry.,,,that will make it harder for SWA to recruit quality pilots....

Yep. Retirement and reserve work rules are where the SWAPA contract is most deficient. Those are the areas to focus on.