AirTran pilots will own the SW upgrades

[waveflyer]

Later man, have a good day

 

[slaquer5]

Don't forget the cookie. Those cookies were awesome. I had two.

Bubba

What cookie ?

I got a coin
A lanyard
A rubber duck


Did PCL take everyone's cookies.

 

[redflyer65]

He's at the Waffle House waiting for the $200 to come thru tomorrow night. Maybe he'll splurge for the Steak and Eggs.

 

[bluesideup1]

These numbers are total BS. You make it sound like all our capts will upgrade in 2015. We have A LOT of mid seniority capts that will retire as FO's.

If we got such a good deal, why did management feel it necessary to throw threats and ultimatums around to keep this from arbitration? That's what has AT pilots pissed. Threats, seniority loss, downgrades, pay loss, domicile loss, reneging on the transition bid...the list goes on.

The only thing I got out of this deal so far is a cheesy medallion and a rubber duck. Awesome.

Which numbers are BS? I never said all of your captains will upgrade in 2015. I specifically said they will have the chance to upgrade as there are only about 200 captains on your side that are junior to our most junior captain. It will take another year or two to get back down to that seniority but the percentages are still the same.

50% OF YOUR GROUP GOT AN IMMEDIATE 30+% RAISE COMING OVER!
40% OF YOUR GROUP WILL GET ANOTHER 35% RAISE IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS!

Leaving 10% of your group that got downgraded and will not make captain in the next 2 years. These 10 percent are the only ones you seem to talk about. The sad part is most of them will upgrade and get that 35% raise on top of the other raises that the AT group got since they were bought.

I am sorry every one of you didn't get huge raises when you came over to the SW side but even then I suspect you would still have your PLC complaining it wasn't paid in gold bullion and they didn't provide a wheel barrow to take it to the bank.

Now lets get back to what most SW guys got out of the deal. For me at least 450 guys in front of me that weren't there before with every year my relative seniority diminishing to the point where I am at an over 50% loss by the time I retire. No massive pay raise, no extra stock options just a loss of seniority over time with no candy coating to help swallow it.

These are the facts please refute them and show me how I am wrong.

 

[redflyer65]

Same here Blueside.

I don't upgrade ONE day earlier with this deal and didn't get a 30% pay increase or a new profit sharing plan.

I got a One Luv medallion, that's about it.

 

[PCL_128]

Dear God, what a frickin' mess Gary created.

What you SWAPA guys may not realize, since it seems that each side of the partition gets fed different information, is that these upgrades early next year for AirTran pilots mean that a bunch of AirTran 717 captains are going to be getting what is being called "captain continuation pay" (essentially pay protection) while more senior AirTran 737 captains are not going to be getting that pay protection. This is being done because SWAPA insisted on that interpretation. As a result, there is a big chunk of AirTran 737 captains already preparing their DFR lawsuit. So instead of having the unity that Howard and the guy with the Vader mask for an avatar were begging for earlier in this thread, you're instead going to have pilots fighting pilots in the middle of Section 6 talks.

SWAPA needs to get their act together in a hurry and find out a way to unify the group. And insisting upon bogus interpretations that ignore seniority and screw over FAT pilots that they already represent is not the way to do it.

 

[freightdogfred]

Same here Blueside.

I don't upgrade ONE day earlier with this deal and didn't get a 30% pay increase or a new profit sharing plan.

I got a One Luv medallion, that's about it.

It is mathematically impossible for your relative seniority to increase and not have the ability to upgrade sooner

 

[redflyer65]

You need to get a new calculator then. I gain less than 3% globally up front and it fades to zero because of the younger age of the Trannies put in front of me. Big gains indeed.

I still have the coin though!

 

[PropPiedmont]

It is mathematically impossible for your relative seniority to increase and not have the ability to upgrade sooner

It is when a large number of senior pilots to you, senior enough to be captains, are transitioned over as FOs.

 

[-9Capt]

. For me at least 450 guys in front of me that weren't there before with every year my relative seniority diminishing to the point where I am at an over 50% loss by the time I retire.

Wow. If I were you I would have been screaming for relative seniority. According to your math, you would have made out much better

As for the back and forth about what we got vs what you got...that's been beaten to death.

The issue most of have is with the way SW and Steve Chase elected to conduct themselves. They lied, cheated, threatened and ultimately stole our capts seats and seniority. If it was done fair and square, nobody would still be talking about it, however by playing in the gutter they lost a lot of respect from 25% of their newest employees. Will that be an issue for management and SWAPA in the future? Time will tell.

 

[-9Capt]

didn't get a 30% pay increase or a new profit sharing plan.

In exchange for your profit sharing we lost our B-fund and 401k match. I'd have to do the math on that but I'm pretty sure is a losing deal for us.

 

[Ualexpress]

Which numbers are BS? I never said all of your captains will upgrade in 2015. I specifically said they will have the chance to upgrade as there are only about 200 captains on your side that are junior to our most junior captain.

There are 430 AT captains that are junior to SWA's most junior captain as of 1-1-15 not 200. The other 470 (for a total of 900 captains on the AT side) that are senior enough to hold captain on 1-1-15 will require vacancies to be able to upgrade, which I am sure will take 2015 and 2016 to get through. The other 430 are slotted in at 1 to 3 ratio (1AT to 3SWA). According to Jaime's my seniority website the most junior AT captain will upgrade in 2023 with a no fleet growth scenario. Of course if the fleet grows that date will trend downwards.

 

[freightdogfred]

It is when a large number of senior pilots to you, senior enough to be captains, are transitioned over as FOs.

His global seniority did not change. He was a loooong way away from upgrade prior, and he's a looong way from it now. Actually, now he's 3% closer. Note the 1 less o in long.

 

[redflyer65]

His global seniority did not change. He was a loooong way away from upgrade prior, and he's a looong way from it now. Actually, now he's 3% closer. Note the 1 less o in long.

No change in the upgrade date. None. So no need to add or remove "o's".

 

[redflyer65]

In exchange for your profit sharing we lost our B-fund and 401k match. I'd have to do the math on that but I'm pretty sure is a losing deal for us.

For 2012 - Match 9.3% plus Profit Sharing 6.2% = 15.5%.

For 2013 - Match 9.3% plus Profit Sharing >10% (estimated) will equal a combination above 20%.

Probably not a losing deal.

 

[bluesideup1]

There are 430 AT captains that are junior to SWA's most junior captain as of 1-1-15 not 200. The other 470 (for a total of 900 captains on the AT side) that are senior enough to hold captain on 1-1-15 will require vacancies to be able to upgrade, which I am sure will take 2015 and 2016 to get through. The other 430 are slotted in at 1 to 3 ratio (1AT to 3SWA). According to Jaime's my seniority website the most junior AT captain will upgrade in 2023 with a no fleet growth scenario. Of course if the fleet grows that date will trend downwards.

And just about every one of them will make A LOT more than they would have if they had stayed at Airtran.

By the time the bids close at the end of the year there will be closer to 200 AT captains that could not hold captain. But lets use your number instead and you can tell me how:

800 of your pilots getting a 30 percent raise immediately upon transition is a bad thing?

Then tell me how those 470 captains upgrading in the next two years and getting a 35% raise is a bad thing?

Using your numbers those 430 AT pilots that will not be able to hold captain in Jan 2015 are all they have been talking about. Are they taking a pay cut? Hardly. Are they making A LOT more than they did just 3 years ago before the purchase? YES.

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before while THE VAST MAJORITY OF AT PILOTS GOT OR WILL GET HUGE RAISES IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Am I wrong?

 

[zman]

And just about every one of them will make A LOT more than they would have if they had stayed at Airtran.

By the time the bids close at the end of the year there will be closer to 200 AT captains that could not hold captain. But lets use your number instead and you can tell me how:

800 of your pilots getting a 30 percent raise immediately upon transition is a bad thing?

Then tell me how those 470 captains upgrading in the next two years and getting a 35% raise is a bad thing?

Using your numbers those 430 AT pilots that will not be able to hold captain in Jan 2015 are all they have been talking about. Are they taking a pay cut? Hardly. Are they making A LOT more than they did just 3 years ago before the purchase? YES.

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before while THE VAST MAJORITY OF AT PILOTS GOT OR WILL GET HUGE RAISES IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Am I wrong?

Who cares!! This new "SWAPA" pilot group will be divided and fragmented for a while. Just wait till all the lawsuits start flying at the end of the year. People have been holding off and waiting to sue (with the advice of their attorneys) for years cause they needed to wait till they saw how it would play out. I personally know someone that has waited years for this.

 

[freightdogfred]

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before while THE VAST MAJORITY OF AT PILOTS GOT OR WILL GET HUGE RAISES IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Am I wrong?

Not true. A vast number of them have recently unpgraded, or are in upgrade.
(I know, Airtran brought this to the table, not the pilots)

A new Atlanta base, which filled rather quickly with some senior peeps evidently is was quite popular. (I know, Airtran brought this to the table not the pilots)

It appears GK was more interested in eliminating one of his direct competitors that was lowering his yield in certain markets than he was in obtaining this stellar pilot group and it's big Atlanta hub, gates, planes, routes. The promised synergies, increased yields, added routes (not to mention a subsidiary whose performance numbers are a matter of record) have all allowed GK to exceed his 15% ROIC target, which theoretically will be reflected on your next profit sharing check so although it's not the big raise you're so pissed the Airtran F/O's got, it is something. When you were a kid did you yell when your brother or sister got a bigger slice of pie, or were you happy for them? Line holding Captains will take a pay cut in the transition. I've talked to a few of them and they confirm it, and many may not see the left seat again. I'm happy our transitioned F/O's got a raise. They deserve it, every one of them were damn good pilots, a 121 Captain prior to coming here. You couldn't get hired here unless you were, post-911. Although I'll prob take a pay cut, I'M HAPPY FOR THE GUYS WHO GOT A RAISE. I hope next Thanksgiving when you're eating turkey with your family you get the biggest slice of pie.

 

[twepilot]

Just for peoples planning...I won't be re-upgrading until I can be based in ATL. I'm sure I'll miss my left seat and being able to set the tone for my flights with my crew but, I refuse to re-upgrade just to commute to the likes of PHX, LAS, OAK, MDW, or BWI. Ain't gonna happen.

RV

 

[Ualexpress]

And just about every one of them will make A LOT more than they would have if they had stayed at Airtran.

By the time the bids close at the end of the year there will be closer to 200 AT captains that could not hold captain. But lets use your number instead and you can tell me how:

800 of your pilots getting a 30 percent raise immediately upon transition is a bad thing?

Then tell me how those 470 captains upgrading in the next two years and getting a 35% raise is a bad thing?

Using your numbers those 430 AT pilots that will not be able to hold captain in Jan 2015 are all they have been talking about. Are they taking a pay cut? Hardly. Are they making A LOT more than they did just 3 years ago before the purchase? YES.

This just surprises me because the SW pilots got nothing except people in front of them who weren't there before while THE VAST MAJORITY OF AT PILOTS GOT OR WILL GET HUGE RAISES IN THE NEXT 2 YEARS. Am I wrong?

Blue,

The point of my post was not to argue who got the better deal so to speak. Some of the points you make are true, but I just wanted to throw out the actual captain numbers on this side of the partition that's all. I'll let the 5-10 of y'all arguing over who got the better deal continue the argument, which is an exercise in futility in my opinion. It's like arguing politics or religion. You are not gonna change each others mind so what's the point in wasting time. See you on the other side.