AirTran pilots will own the SW upgrades

[madjack]

13 years, what's your point, when do I make the cut in your eyes....

 

[Dan Roman]

Tom W on our NC is pushing a B fund...mgmt needs to realize the pilots group is not like any other, the "me too" in re to i401k match and retirement benefits has kept SWA pilots behind in the industry.,,,that will make it harder for SWA to recruit quality pilots....

No No...you guys have " the best 401k!" Just ask your management.

 

[waveflyer]

Dear God, what a frickin' mess Gary created.

What you SWAPA guys may not realize, since it seems that each side of the partition gets fed different information, is that these upgrades early next year for AirTran pilots mean that a bunch of AirTran 717 captains are going to be getting what is being called "captain continuation pay" (essentially pay protection) while more senior AirTran 737 captains are not going to be getting that pay protection. This is being done because SWAPA insisted on that interpretation. As a result, there is a big chunk of AirTran 737 captains already preparing their DFR lawsuit. So instead of having the unity that Howard and the guy with the Vader mask for an avatar were begging for earlier in this thread, you're instead going to have pilots fighting pilots in the middle of Section 6 talks.

SWAPA needs to get their act together in a hurry and find out a way to unify the group. And insisting upon bogus interpretations that ignore seniority and screw over FAT pilots that they already represent is not the way to do it.

Your opinion would be a lot more valid if you weren't quitting.

Until then you're just the guy every union volunteer has always hated- the guy doing nothing, bit throwing the biggest bombs at those actually doing work

I KNOW you've hated that for most of your unioned life.

 

[PCL_128]

Your opinion would be a lot more valid if you weren't quitting.

Actually, that's what makes my opinion more valid. I have no vested interest, so I'm merely an outside observer calling it like I see it. And you know I'm right. SWAPA is managing this horribly, and they'll suffer the consequences of it for a long time.

 

[twepilot]

Actually, that's what makes my opinion more valid. I have no vested interest, so I'm merely an outside observer calling it like I see it. And you know I'm right. SWAPA is managing this horribly, and they'll suffer the consequences of it for a long time.

This sounds like a job for SUPER-ALPA, ta-da-da-da...

RV

 

[PCL_128]

Nah, ALPA can't fix that problem. ALPA just provides resources and adult supervision. If the local people in leadership positions aren't willing to do the right thing, then ALPA can't help (reference the mess at ASA/XJT). This is a local issue. The local leaders need to figure out that they represent 1,750 former AirTran pilots (or will in another month or so, anyway). Treating them like second class citizens will only lead to a lack of unity and continual in-fighting. And this is going beyond second class citizen status. This is downright predatory behavior.

 

[SWA Bubba]

No No...you guys have " the best 401k!" Just ask your management.

Speaking of tossing hand grenades...

The "best 401-k" comment was an industry assessment of the quality of SWAPA's 401-k and what you can do with the money in your account, and not how much you get to put in it. Southwest pilots have their own 401-k, while the rest of the company's employees utilize a 401k that the company set up.

While SWAPA's 401-k plan has been rated one of the best in the country (according to Morningside, not our management), one could always use higher overall retirement contributions. That's one of the main goals for improvement in our section 6 right now.

But you knew that, didn't you Dan?... :blush:

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

Predatory?

 

[scoreboardII]

Predatory? Last I checked SWAPA would have been happy if the hole thing never happened. Once it did, all they did is exactly what ALPA did, protect their own. Now that we will be one, get on board, or go home. Any other opinion is just being naive.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm not talking about the SLI. That's old news. Anyone still obsessing over that needs help. I'm talking about things like the PHX rep's column a few months ago saying that SWAPA shouldn't care about the lance captain program because only AirTran pilots will benefit from it now. And he says this long after SWAPA has started representing the pilots who will benefit from it! You do realize that if SWAPA does anything now to change the provisions of the lance captain program that SWAPA is going to be sued, and SWAPA will probably lose, right?

Stop thinking of the pilot group as original SWA and former AirTran. Not only is it a problem with building unity, it's also allowing things like the above to happen which will lead to litigation and continued in-fighting. It's just plain stupid!

 

[HowardBorden]

And he says this long after SWAPA has started representing the pilots who will benefit from it! You do realize that if SWAPA does anything now to change the provisions of the lance captain program that SWAPA is going to be sued, and SWAPA will probably lose, right?

Again, you show the complete and total lack of knowledge about a subject.

You do realize that we barely held on to the Lance program last section 6, right?

You do realize that any changes to the Lance program will be part of an entire section 6 package that will require membership ratification, right?

In the long run, the Lance program is destined for the scrap heap. Management wants it gone because the Feds and the insurance carriers want it gone. All of this was transpiring looong before any AirTran acquisition ever was ever publicly discussed.

SWAPA's position has been pro Lance since I got here yet the program has been downsized and deteriorated. I like the Lance program and think it should be continued however I realize the realities of the opposition are great and it will eventually be phased out completely.

 

[waveflyer]

There is a long history of debate about the lance program-

Now, there are senior captains who want it gone and there is everyone else who realizes that the lance program is the starter for our entire trip trading market.

I hope it stays- it benefits far more pilots than just who is lancing at this particular time-
Senior captains have someone to give captain trips to in order to clear their board for premium. Lances give away senior FO trips that FOs wouldn't otherwise get. Everyone gets the flexibility of schedule that a vibrant market for trip trading provides.

When we had our first debate, I was only a few years in- I didn't realize how much reducing the lance program would affect me.
It seriously dampened my quality of life as a junior FO.

I look forward to lancing, but really argue it's existence from the POV that it benefits most everyone

 

[PCL_128]

Again, you show the complete and total lack of knowledge about a subject.

You do realize that we barely held on to the Lance program last section 6, right?

You do realize that any changes to the Lance program will be part of an entire section 6 package that will require membership ratification, right?

In the long run, the Lance program is destined for the scrap heap. Management wants it gone because the Feds and the insurance carriers want it gone. All of this was transpiring looong before any AirTran acquisition ever was ever publicly discussed.

SWAPA's position has been pro Lance since I got here yet the program has been downsized and deteriorated. I like the Lance program and think it should be continued however I realize the realities of the opposition are great and it will eventually be phased out completely.

I realize all of that, and none of it matters. As soon as one of your idiot elected reps was allowed to publish an article in an official union publication stating that the lance program wasn't worth fighting for because it would only benefit AirTran pilots, SWAPA openly invited a DFR lawsuit.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

PCL,
where are you now? is ALPA still taking money from you back pocket even though they don't help you're cause anymore. Get off the pot and drink the cool aid.
just saying

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Most SW posters just don't get it and never will. Many AAI pilots feel cheated because they expected better in an arbitration. Given that whatever positives there might be in this for them (if any) don't matter because they expected MUCH MUCH more. Its like getting a $100 Christmas bonus when you expected $1000. Couple that that with the inability to capture a foothold in the ATL which has led to a very very small domicile there and these guys will NEVER EVER be happy or unify. Many I speak to are so pissed they are willing to burn WN to the ground not for contractual gains but just out of spite. I expect a huge increase in AOGS and sick calls.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Getto, and AAI pilots will never get that most SWA pilots got absolutely nothing from this deal and will have a continual loss until they retire.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

They might but they don't care. An arbitrator would have given them at least DOH (probably better) and they would have most likely kept all of the Capt seats with a fence around ATL all on the SWAPA contract. They don't give a crap about the effects of that on the non AAI pilots. They didn't get, it they feel cheated and bitter, they will always feel that way and a good number of them are more than willing to act on those feelings. Honestly in some ways I get their anger.

The roof the roof the roof is on fire.

 

[bluesideup1]

They might but they don't care. An arbitrator would have given them at least DOH (probably better) and they would have most likely kept all of the Capt seats with a fence around ATL all on the SWAPA contract. They don't give a crap about the effects of that on the non AAI pilots. They didn't get it they feel cheated and are bitter and always will.

Just because the AAI reps sold you relative and said DOH would be the least you would get doesn't mean it is SW fault you didn't get it. AAI had nothing to bargain with when it came to the purchase. Their contract was sub par, their pay rates were abysmal.

Of course you could put your head into the sand and not look at the two groups that did go to Arbitration. BOTH OF THEM GOT WORSE THEN WHAT THE AAI PILOTS GOT THROUGH NEGOTIATION.

To say you would have gotten DOH with Arbitration is just asinine as it clearly didn't happen in either of the other ones that went to arbitration.

Please put the blame on those who oversold what the AAI pilots were capable of getting.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Blue first I'm not former AAI. Second historically that pilot SLIs are arbitrated much differently than other work groups. Look at Alaska/Jet America for the extremes that arbitrators are willing to ignore to prevent a shuffle of seats and added training cost to the acquiring carrier. What constitutes "fair and equitable" seems to very greatly depending on your job description and the corporate costs associated with moving people around. Based on precedent AAI expected to end up with DOH+ and seat protection. It could have gone down differently but precedent dictates that it probably wouldn't have.

 

[redflyer65]

ALPA simply overplayed their hand. The first agreement was agreed to by their MC. Did anyone twist their arm in that deal? The MEC made the biggest blunder of all time. You get what you negotiate.

 

[PCL_128]

Are you morons still arguing about the SLI? It's been three f'n years!

 

[scoreboardII]

I realize all of that, and none of it matters. As soon as one of your idiot elected reps was allowed to publish an article in an official union publication stating that the lance program wasn't worth fighting for because it would only benefit AirTran pilots, SWAPA openly invited a DFR lawsuit.

Hypothetical: what is the harm to any AT now SWA pilot if SWA pilots vote to delete Lance?

Hint: Nothing.

No harm, no DFR.

The Reps statements mean nothing, they caused no harm.

 

[tankerhead]

Most SW posters just don't get it and never will. Many AAI pilots feel cheated because they expected better in an arbitration. Given that whatever positives there might be in this for them (if any) don't matter because they expected MUCH MUCH more. Its like getting a $100 Christmas bonus when you expected $1000. Couple that that with the inability to capture a foothold in the ATL which has led to a very very small domicile there and these guys will NEVER EVER be happy or unify. Many I speak to are so pissed they are willing to burn WN to the ground not for contractual gains but just out of spite. I expect a huge increase in AOGS and sick calls.

Call in sick more than a RSW'ester? Unlikely. You guys are the vanguard there, boss.

 

[slaquer5]

Are you morons still arguing about the SLI? It's been three f'n years!

Once again. I have to agree with PCL


Not sure what some are trying to accomplish here.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Tommy?

THIS ^^^ is what is important now. None of us can control what has happened nor did we really have any in the first place. Can we stop bitching and unite? We all will be under whatever new contract we vote in. Stop complaining about what we can't control and let's be the unified group that the company fears and isn't expecting. The feeling sorry for yourself bull******************** is tired.

Is that you?

 

[Roomwithaview]

Seats?

Where do I apply?

Prob wouldn't get selected anyways, I'm not RSW just a no-good tranny lotto-winner. Don't see myself really shouting from the bleachers for either side, like I said I'm just kinda wore out an tired of the whole mess, just wanna get done training, fly my trips and go home. I'm content to let wavey, red clown and darth vader spearhead the whole "shut em done" routine. Steve Chase and the rest of the SWAPA posse made it pretty clear how they felt, they got the seats and the seniority. A few posts up a guy was crowing about retiring at #60 instead of #30. Really? I went from 32% to 66%. Prob won't make Captain again. Forgive me If I don't wanna join the SWAPA cheerleaders.

Last time I checked you guys all got seniority and jobs at an airline where less than half your airplanes came over.

That is a lottery win. Make sure to tell me personally how bad you got f*cked. I'll be more than glad to pull out the list of "WINS" for your side. The most of which is not being shown the street.

As others said, I'm certain on line you'll be a good little foot soldier and enjoy your massive pay and QOL bump.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program of trying to make us all believe AAI was the "Holy Grail" of airline jobs.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Schedules

Speaking of enjoying the days off. That is about all you can enjoy being a senior line holder. Who builds these lines anyway around here? What a joke of a scheduling department. No wide range of hours in the packet. Everybody gets the same? Common man

Our schedules are $hit right now because we sold off 88 planes while absorbing the entirety of the AAI pilot list.

That's a gift from us my friend. You're welcome.

 

[Roomwithaview]

Pcl

I realize all of that, and none of it matters. As soon as one of your idiot elected reps was allowed to publish an article in an official union publication stating that the lance program wasn't worth fighting for because it would only benefit AirTran pilots, SWAPA openly invited a DFR lawsuit.

Then you best not come over here. swapa has a long history of reps making stupid comments in public and taking positions that are detrimental to the membership as a whole. Especially when it comes to PHX.

 

[Roomwithaview]

ALPA simply overplayed their hand. The first agreement was agreed to by their MC. Did anyone twist their arm in that deal? The MEC made the biggest blunder of all time. You get what you negotiate.

The MEC saw the writing on the wall for the 717 and made sure they had protection if they were gone. A lot of folks ignore that one.

 

[freightdogfred]

Last time I checked you guys all got seniority and jobs at an airline where less than half your airplanes came over.

Seniority. A job. How magnanimous of you. It was what was required to comply with Federal law, as least in spirit if not in practice. It's pretty obvious the big play was to get rid of a competitor. Sorry you didn't get the opportunity to just line us up against the wall and shoot us instead.

That is a lottery win. Make sure to tell me personally how bad you got f*cked. I'll be more than glad to pull out the list of "WINS" for your side. The most of which is not being shown the street.

Yup, I won the friggin lotto. 34% seniority loss, loss of my seat, loss of my airplane, loss of my base. There is no pay raise for a line holding captain, it's a pay cut, at least that's what like 4-5 guys who have transitioned have told me as they're "livin the dream". Course, they are no-good Airtran scum lotto winners who are prob lying anyways. When one pilot group is absorbed by another do you really feel that they should be "shown the street?" That's pretty harsh, but I guess that's just your nature.

As others said, I'm certain on line you'll be a good little foot soldier and enjoy your massive pay and QOL bump.

I will be a good little foot soldier. I work hard, I like what I do, and If I get a pay raise, well woohoo, I'm all for it. I must admit the ability to change bases every month is appealing that way i can get into your base and bid to fly with you. Think of all the fun we can have!

Now back to your regularly scheduled program of trying to make us all believe AAI was the "Holy Grail" of airline jobs.

You can say what you want about Airtran, it was a good job, paid pretty good, and I liked it. I'm sorry to see it go. But SW is a good job too so I got that going for me. I hope whoever pissed in your wheaties doesn't do it again but hey, have a great day!