AirTran pilots will own the SW upgrades

[Luv2BFlyin]

Stock options are a risky move in lieu of money. For the early guys, they got lucky, nothing short of that. They went to work for a start up low cost carrier flying around Texas for low pay and the lure of gambling on stock options instead going to a major. For some reason, they didn't want to join the sky gods of the day. Would you deride them for making that decision back in the day.

As far as what would be better, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. WN could have been bought out or merged with another airline 25 years ago and we wouldn't even be discussing this. That may not worked out so well for those gamblers lured by the quick upgrade and rapid seniority gain (where have we heard that before). For a lot of us where we went was a choice and where we ended up was fate.

 

[HowardBorden]

For a lot of us where we went was a choice and where we ended up was fate.

I don't believe in fate but will instead, place my trust in well educated decisions based on empirical data available at the time.

 

[redflyer65]

All airlines grow and progress or wither and die. No one enters the game at the top of the heap, it takes years and years to build upon the initial contract and make it something to be proud of.

The difference between many of us here arriving at SWA post 9/11, and those at AirTran for a similar time frame, is the choices we made about what type of airline was right for us. The AT folks chose a small up and coming airline with quicker upgrade times but coupled with a less than superior contract and pay rates. Others chose an airline that had an industry leading contract and pay rates coupled with an airline of substantial size and financial stability with little chance of becoming an acquisition target.

I don't blame you for your choices, don't blame me for mine. Since I have been at SWA I have enjoyed an industry leading compensation package with great rigs and work rules. It took me longer to get a job here because it was a more desirable position with lots of qualified candidates competing for a limited number of jobs. I turned down a job at an airline similar to AT because I had my sights set on something better.

I won't profess to know what was best for you and your career path, only what was right for me. I chose an airline that I was confidant would remain financially viable, had little chance of being acquired due to its size and firm financial footing and where I thought I had the least chance of being furloughed.

It is of little consequence to me what type of job was available at SWA 40 years ago because I didn't work there then. I do know many folks who were around during that time frame from gate agent to pilots to rampers, and all seem quite satisfied with their choice to come to work at SWA back in the day when SWA wasn't "the cream of the crop", as you put it. As a matter of fact, most of them will retire to a lifestyle that far outweighs many of their peers at competing airlines because they chose an airline that never needed to hit the reset button nullifying all of their hard work and efforts putting something away for retirement.

Good post Howard and I agree.

Luv,

So you could go to work for a company making low wages (SW 1990, AAI 2010) and have the possibility of HUGE earning via Stock Options (SW), or go to one that would never offer something like that(AAI)?

One could pay off big, and the other will definitely not. Now I agree, anyone could get bought but the bigger you get the less likely that becomes. And that's out of anyone's control. The only way to make that pay off is owning some of your own stock.

 

[humveedriver]

I don't believe in fate but will instead, place my trust in well educated decisions based on empirical data available at the time.

If it's your time. It's your time. You can always try to mitigate risk, but you can't eliminate it. I believe in fate and education/data/trend information.

 

[redflyer65]

If you apply to every carrier, then it could be seen as fate. If you choose only the ones you'd like to work at, isn't that limiting fate somewhat?

 

[HowardBorden]

If you apply to every carrier, then it could be seen as fate. If you choose only the ones you'd like to work at, isn't that limiting fate somewhat?

I actually sent resumes to just about everyone when I was looking simply to get as much experience interviewing as possible. However, there was only 1 or 2 I would ever consider accepting an offer of employment. I get it, that many AT folks had apps in at SWA for similar reasons.

 

[humveedriver]

If you apply to every carrier, then it could be seen as fate. If you choose only the ones you'd like to work at, isn't that limiting fate somewhat?

It reduces risk to a career with a negative outcome. But it guarantees nothing. Just getting hired at SWA is folly too. Many good applicants turned away. Many fortunate enough to get hired (based on some sort of awesomeness factor I'm sure). Some (Morris/AT) work there now without even applying. Now that's fate.

 

[redflyer65]

It reduces risk to a career with a negative outcome.

Exactly my point. I didn't apply to some carriers because I didn't want to work there for various reasons. Howie makes a valid point that he used them for interview prep. I never saw it that way. Apply to the top airlines and see what happens. If nothing, then re-apply. That was my method but others may not have seen it that way.

Take SW. Your right, sometimes they don't hire people for whatever reason. What if you interviewed again, and maybe again (number 3) and get hired? Fate or effort?

 

[PCL_128]

So you need to reach back to 1990 to make an argument? Probably not your strongest case.

No, I only need to go back about 10 years. Keep re-writing that history, though.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Good post Howard and I agree.

Luv,

So you could go to work for a company making low wages (SW 1990, AAI 2010) and have the possibility of HUGE earning via Stock Options (SW), or go to one that would never offer something like that(AAI)?

One could pay off big, and the other will definitely not. Now I agree, anyone could get bought but the bigger you get the less likely that becomes. And that's out of anyone's control. The only way to make that pay off is owning some of your own stock.

The comparison was between going to WN in the 70's versus the major dujour at the time. Low pay offset by rapid seniority gains, better quality of life sooner, and fast upgrade time. I highly doubt many of those guys were betting their future on stock options. Luckily for them it worked out and paid off in spades. Many of us came to FL or any number of other LCC's for the exact same reasons when the companies were relatively young. Do you think of your senior pilots as cast-off's that couldn't get hired anywhere else or that they were using WN as a stepping stone airline in the 70's? When they chose to apply and got hired, there was no empirical data that irrefutably proved that that was the right decision for them.

 

[PCL_128]

Holding up stock options as justification for horrendous pay is just further proof that the SWA guys of old didn't give a flying you-know-what about the profession. Stock options in lieu of pay do nothing to raise the bar. In fact, they do the exact opposite.

 

[redflyer65]

No, I only need to go back about 10 years. Keep re-writing that history, though.

10 years? I think the big pay raise came in 2001 timeframe. Was Delta/CAL/UAL higher than SW at the time? Maybe...but then DL and NW went into bankruptcy in 2005 as SW pay continued to rise.

To go back even further, a SW captain was making around 125/hr in 1994. Equating to around 200/hr in todays dollars.

As far as Stock Options go, Herb wanted a pay freeze in lieu of rate increases and laid out his reasoning. The pilots believed in the plan, crushed the competition and in the end were rewarded handsomely (retiring multi-millionaires...along with the FA's) And yes, it was about Us vs. Them. Is that a problem?

 

[redflyer65]

Holding up stock options as justification for horrendous pay is just further proof that the SWA guys of old didn't give a flying you-know-what about the profession. Stock options in lieu of pay do nothing to raise the bar. In fact, they do the exact opposite.

And yet you had NO justification of it a AirTran. Why is that?

 

[PCL_128]

10 years? I think the big pay raise came in 2001 timeframe.

Wrong. A contract was ratified that included down-line pay raises, but those big raises didn't come until several years later. SWA never hit pre-9/11 legacy rates (still hasn't, in fact), and only bypassed the legacies finally when they went into bankruptcy and took massive concessions.

Allow me to repeat that: today, 15 years later, SWA has STILL not hit pre-9/11 legacy narrowbody rates. You have absolutely nothing to be proud of. Period.

To go back even further, a SW captain was making around 125/hr in 1994. Equating to around 200/hr in todays dollars.

I'm glad you bring that up, since a legacy captain at the time was making about $300/hr in today's dollars. SWA was always dragging down the industry.

And yes, it was about Us vs. Them. Is that a problem?

Well, yes, in fact. Us vs. them is fine for the businessmen. It's not fine when labor negotiations involve pattern bargaining. Allowing your management to succeed on your back is never okay.

 

[PCL_128]

And yet you had NO justification of it a AirTran. Why is that?

Because I don't attempt to justify it. It wasn't right for AirTran, either. That's why so many of us fought to fix it.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

And yet you had NO justification of it a AirTran. Why is that?

It took 33 years for WN to catch up to the majors in pay and you're throwing stones at FL for not doing it in 17?

 

[redflyer65]

It took 33 years for WN to catch up to the majors in pay and you're throwing stones at FL for not doing it in 17?

Luv,

I'm out brother. Time for some single malt.

 

[redflyer65]

Well, yes, in fact. Us vs. them is fine for the businessmen. It's not fine when labor negotiations involve pattern bargaining. Allowing your management to succeed on your back is never okay.

And Herb followed through on his plan, you get that right? Complete success. They both won....wildly. The company and the pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

And Herb followed through on his plan, you get that right? Complete success. They both one....wildly. The company and the pilots.

I keep forgetting that I'm talking to the biggest dolt to ever wear a pilot uniform. One who can't even remember the difference between "one" and "won." You waste my time, mental midget.

 

[redflyer65]

I changed the typo for you Fat Boy, thanks for the help. If you need help with those College classes just let me know. I know plenty of AirTran guys that can't wait to see you hit the road.....and that's one thing I can definitely agree with them on! :laugh: