Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[CoolSidePillow]

Says to me if we(SWA pilots) don't get at least a descent
bump in seniority this would be a windfall (sp?) for the AT pilots. Am I wrong? Better pay benefits QOL job security days off bases. What is our windfall?
Respectfully
Fr8

Texas is just North Mexico. You can keep that cesspool

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Maybe you didn't read my post, but for many AirTran pilots, FO would be a pay cut, for some it would be a very substantial pay cut.

AirTran just had it's most profitable year ever, and has 50 aircraft on order, for growth. We don't need this merger, far from it. We're growing and hiring RIGHT NOW . . . .

Now, if you want to pay me 10th yr CA pay to fly FO, that's different, but don't tell me I should downgrade and take a pay cut to be a SWA pilot. If you don't understand that, then we don't have anything to talk about, do we?

10 year cpt at AAI is 144
10 year fo at swa is 141 accourding to APC. Crying over 3 dollars an hour? Really? Really?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

What was the hire date of SWA pilot with 2100 seniority number?

 

[macdu]

Compare this industry to the real world. In a buyout hypothetically speaking lets say ( microsft buys apple ). Do you really think that all jobs would be preserved? Usually the aquiring company calls the shots. So why is it different for this industry. Because it is now a federal law, that's why.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Let's see....

SWA career expectations.....Cattle car 737s to 60+ cities....
Airtran career expectations....737s with First class seats international.....

Airtran guys need a fence on all international flying.....:laugh:


And you guys are fighting?? Nobody better pull the 737-800 is Super-Premium flying and you haven't even received one yet like some of my new brethren.

SWA boys and gals need to drop the "chosen one" attitude and realize its all about business and not the LUV.

 

[scoreboardII]

Exactly! Business like, we'll all have party when it's over, but for right now, your CEO said:

"(AirTran had) done a lot with not much in terms of financial resources, but that it was becoming less clear that AirTran had the ability to grow and remain competitive in an industry where the size of a carrier's route network is increasingly important."

You can keep the international, I like my bed.

We'll keep the seniority bump, you get scope protection, $800,000 career earning bump, you can keep ATL and 717's for 3 years, everyone will fly everything for one rate, and you don't have to out on strike.

 

[Lear70]

Good Morning,

1st, there is no "self-help". What are you going to do as an F/O? Call in sick? Stand on the brakes so the CA can't taxi? WTFO?

Wow, no kidding. That term was being used in a generic sense. Meaning the world is grey, not black and white like you are stating.

OK, just making sure, because unlike in person, you can't read someone's "tone" or "intent" on here.

2nd, the General is absolutely correct in using the NWA/DAL merger/acquisition as a baseline for comparison. Why? Because that's what an arbitrator is going to do.

In reality, it will probably be Frontier/Republic that will be the baseline for this arbitration.

Why do you think so? Frontier was in dire financial trouble and had been bleeding red ink for years. AirTran is not. All the difference in the world.

On the contrary, from what I'm hearing, your SWAPA colleagues proposed something quite untenable for the AirTran pilots today. They are hard at work to represent your best interests, as are our representatives from the AirTran ALPA MEC. It's an opening position, and it's negotiations. Like you said before, it's business, not personal, although your vitriolic post makes me suspect it *IS* rather personal for you.

By your "I'm all knowing and superior" tone, I can say the same about you. But, I will take it down a notch. It's easy to post when your ticked off. Doesn't change my position though.

I'm not asking you to change your position; I'm asking you to realize that it's not ALL THE PILOTS AT AIRTRAN trying to come to your front door and demand to have the master bedroom, the TV remote, and you keep paying the mortgage and mowing the lawn. I hate to see the acrimony this early in the game, that's all, when at the end of the day, a deal will be struck somewhere in the middle or an arbitrator will PICK a deal somewhere in the middle, we won't get to be in the driver's seat for it, and *WHO KNOWS* how that will end up. I would prefer pilots from both sides who know each other's respective groups find something equitable. Am I dreaming? Maybe. But I think it's doable, if both sides recognize that BOTH sides bring something to the table.

p.s. Yeah, I get that a lot; because I write very formally, it comes off condescending. It's not intended, my apologies. My demeanor in person isn't nearly as formal (when my coworkers meet me after years of reading the union work I've done and things I've posted on the message board, I get a lot of "you're not like I imagined you".)

July 2011. Yes, that's right, about 10 months from now. Why? That's easy.

Now that truly is funny! Its could take 6 months to iron out the transition agreement with the company. When we finally do start at SLI negotiations you think we will go from start, to completion of Arbitration in FOUR months. Now that is truly interesting. No, impossible.

Well, we don't START SLI negotiations 6 months from now when the final paperwork is signed, DoJ review is done, etc, we started SLI negotiations YESTERDAY and probably will continue to meet and negotiate over the next 4-6 months as the deal is finalized. That means, on DoS, if we feel we are at a stalemate, we could immediately invoke the arbitration provision of Bond-McCaskill... or we could have come to an agreement with the SWAPA Merger Committee and it could happen BEFORE a year from now.

The timeline isn't perfectly linear - many things can overlap each other.

You cannot force AirTran pilots to work on a B-scale indefinitely.

I never said that. I said if QOL is all your truly worried about, a "B" scale solution can probably be worked out in everyones favor. I realize that will never happen, just calling BS on some of the posts written by Airtran guys.

Yes, there's been some things written on both sides of the table that are either written in fear or grandstanding, just the nature of the beast. I didn't pick up on (nor do I think many others did) that you were being facetious about the B-scale idea. Glad to know you were just trying to make a point.

The General was spot-on in his previous post: the AirTran pilots will start enjoying the benefits of the Southwest contract and you could wind up with a MUCH WORSE position in an SLI than negotiating it.

I could not agree more. Your Airtran guys are the ones touting pay raise and relative seniority. Your a moderator, go back and read some of the posts on this subject.

I have read every post in this (and the other) threads. The pay raise isn't being touted, it's just a fact of life. There's not a way to avoid that, in reality. As far as the rest, what do you expect? You have a few Southwest pilots saying that just because your management made a business decision that your pilots should automatically INCREASE their seniority at the expense of the AirTran pilots. For a carrier that was on the verge of bankruptcy (Frontier), IN Bankruptcy (ATA), or outright shut down, that argument might have merit. However, for a company that was doing JUST FINE on its own, it is simply an argument that doesn't apply.

Likewise, demanding that the #1 AirTran guy be slotted right next to the #1 Southwest guy, the #2 AAI next to the #2 SWA, etc, isn't going to fly over there, and the VAST majority of our pilots know it. If we had that, it would make our entire seniority list senior to half of your TOTAL pilots.

At some point, you have to separate the money side of the issue and realize that relative bidding position for schedule, days off, vacation, is in many ways JUST as much of an issue as the money once you're making a certain income level. We also have to realize that we *ARE* going to be making quite a bit more money, and that to keep peace in the family, it's going to have to be fair. It's a delicate balance, and as has been said many times before, "A successful merged list pi$$es *EVERYONE* off". An exaggeration, for certain, but one that has a basis more in reality than not.

None of us want that. We are happy that this is happening, most of us have a lot of friends over there that we are looking forward to working with again. We have been fair with other airlines when we were in the driver's seat, we simply ask that you extend us the same courtesy.

That will happen, but you will have to be willing to give some as we give. All these things (pay, qol, schedule, work rules) that you are about to benefit from, we have worked hard to secure over the years. If you think it was easy to do, I ask why we are not taking your pay rates?

I think you will find the majority of AAI pilots are more than willing to give a little, but that doesn't mean we're interested in a staple job for a large part of our list, either.

We are still playing a little catch-up over here. Your M&A committee has not only the advantage of having been given advance notice by your management that this was coming and ours wasn't, but your M&A committee also has been through this rodeo (albeit fairly quickly and unsuccessfully) with Frontier fairly recently. I imagine our Merger Committee will meet with yours quite a bit in the months to come and we'll see what they come up with. Just trying to keep this board civil, realizing that a vocal few who are aggressive and hostile don't represent the whole... on EITHER side of the table.

 

[FNG320]

It really shocks me that Airtran pilots believe that they will get up to a $70,000 a year pay raise and keep their relative seniority and not give up anything to the Southwest pilot group. Really?

Here is a thought. The Southwest pilot group sits on negotiations for the next, lets say, 7-8 years. We already are making nice money, plus a possible variable raise and a negotiated fixed raise coming in the next few years. We are doing fine, and Airtran pilots can give up over 500+K of lost income. That extra cash would be nice, but I'm sure the QOL is really what you want. You can be the North pilots, we will take South(west).

Now, maybe, you could be reasonable, and take the huge financial windfall and give up some seniority to get it. I doubt it. Just a thought.

I am sure glad that 4 out of 5 of our Negotiating Committee are First Officers.

My bet is a Arbitrator. But I wouldn't be fooled by your union into thinking this windfall will be easy, or fun. Might want to hold off on the high fives for a little while.

Have a wonderful day.

Spoken like a SWA pilot.

First, I would bet that AirTran as well as SWA pilots both have merger protectection in their CBAs. Most likely requiring them to be treated fairly. (Allegeny-Mohawk kind of language)

Second, The SWA pilots did not get a say/vote on this merger, unlike the Frontier one. Thus it is two equals merging (regardless of size).

Third, Mcaskill-Bond will require an arbitrated settlement if the two cannot agree to a merger.

If you look at USAir Nic award and how Delta/NWA merged as a starting point, both used relative seniority as a basis, a relative percentage among similar types (wide body, narrow body, etc). Thus Top 1% at SWA remain top 1% in the combined company, Top 1% at AirTran remain top 1%. Your relative seniority percentage remains the same before and after the SLI.

Yes, AirTran pilots should get a excellent pay boost as well as improved schedules, work rules, benefits, etc. That is just the nature of the beast, but they should not have to give up seniority in the combined company for it. They did not choose the merger, managment did. A fair SLI is for everyone to keep the same relative seniority before and after.

Just my opinion........

FNG

 

[Diesel-9]

I would bet on it going to arbitration. Luv ego will probably prevail in negotiations with no deal. Bottom half of SWA seniority list career progression gets nuked. Welcome to the industry. You are now bigger and more vulnerable. As my Thai girlfriend used to say, "G*d Dam*!, You So Big!" Rots of Ruck with this deal.

 

[scoreboardII]

Good Morning,


PILOTS AT AIRTRAN trying to come to your front door and demand to have the master bedroom, the TV remote, .

Wow just a darn minute, but then again, if you can figure out how to get the DVD player to work, you can have the remote.

Your M&A committee has not only the advantage of having been given advance notice by your management

Lets be real here, our team knew when they were called at 6am Monday, just like your guys, they had no clue.

 

[livintheredream]

1. Shock
2. Fear
3. Acceptance

We are all following the play book. Hopefully it will go as well as DAL/NW but remember it is business. Also dont forget you get ATL. I know some dont give a rats AZZ about it but it will play a big part in SW growth in the international markets. We didn't show up to the game without a ball. Remember, forum guys are usually not to rational. Just very emotional. ( Generally Speaking)

 

[FDJ2]

Actually, your wrong both swa and aai want this transaction. This isn't a hostile takeover. AAI wants this transaction (needs (your words)) just as much as SWA. AAI does not want to be left out of the post merger airline industry. SWA was going to buy someone and AAI wanted to be that someone. I can guarantee you AAI was very much pursuing this deal. AAI would be trying to buy SWA if it had the money.

Oh yeah, you don't have a birth right to someone elses contract. Call the SLI the cost of a superior contract. AAI pilots will realize $1.5 million more in compensation over a 25 year career thanks to southwest pilots. Who is (buying) who's career!!!!!!!!!!

As for AAI pilots argument to growth, aircraft orders, upgrades that is all a mythical creature doesn't exist until its on property and you are in the seat and even then it can all go the other way in a very short period of time. None of that is ever guaranteed we all know that. You can be growing hand over fist one month and all that can be cancelled in the blink of an eye. That argument simply doesn't hold water. You have no right to that left seat just ask usair pilots even pre merger. AAI is profitable and growing (yes) for how long no one knows not even a AAI pilot.

You both need each other than, fine, fair is fair.

Airtran guys don't have to buy a superior contract with their seniority numbers, they can negotiate it on their own without a JCBA. Their already in mediation in section 6 negotiations. Fairly easy to get released shortly after the date of corporate closing with demands for contract parity. I'm sure the mediator wouldn't blink and SWA wont take a strike over something their going to have to give up regardless.

Look, you all are the same, flying your own pax in similar gauge equipment. SWA is making more today than AAI, but there's no guarantee that pay disparity would have existed 5, 10, 15 years from now. It's probably all going to come down to a slotted category/status ratio integration, maybe some longevity thrown in if SWA has significantly more retirements in the future.

 

[doh]

Compare this industry to the real world. In a buyout hypothetically speaking lets say ( microsft buys apple ). Do you really think that all jobs would be preserved? Usually the aquiring company calls the shots. So why is it different for this industry. Your CEO ( airtran ) decided to sell your company. This crap happens everyday. The average JOE what he asks himself is ( will I lose my job? ) But Joe the pilot says ( dont F with my life and schedule and pay. ? ) come back to reality. Go ask any pilot on furlough and ask him where he would like to be right now. With a pay increase at a major airline that actually cares about their employees along with better schedules rigs etc. or sitting at the bottom of an RJ carrier with a REAL CRAP PAY AND SCHEDULE. Forget your superior forcasting abilities about how you r supposed to upgrade and how life is going to be so good once we sign our contract. Blah blah blah. I have heard this all to well at my previous carrier, who had also had in there contract a stipulation to Guarenteed number of aircraft ie 160. their contract is now flushed down the toilet and half the number of aircraft. IF A pilot group is set to gain X, then to be fair, you need to give B pilot group
something of equal value to them. You cant expect to gain everything and give up nothing in return. Your smoking the wrong pipe.

You can't compare this business to the real world. Nobody in the real world has to start over at the bottom of the pay/vacation/seniority heap to change jobs. Like the guy before said, you ain't gonna create an aha moment for anyone. Stand by your committee, let the arbitrator rule, then fercrissakes get over it and don't have a usapaian meltdown!

 

[Britpilot]

You both need each other than, fine, fair is fair.

Airtran guys don't have to buy a superior contract with their seniority numbers, they can negotiate it on their own without a JCBA. Their already in mediation in section 6 negotiations. Fairly easy to get released shortly after the date of corporate closing with demands for contract parity. I'm sure the mediator wouldn't blink and SWA wont take a strike over something their going to have to give up regardless.

Look, you all are the same, flying your own pax in similar gauge equipment. SWA is making more today than AAI, but there's no guarantee that pay disparity would have existed 5, 10, 15 years from now. It's probably all going to come down to a slotted category/status ratio integration, maybe some longevity thrown in if SWA has significantly more retirements in the future.

There you go talking good sense, that won't work on FI. You should know better.

 

[T45Flyer]

I'm not asking you to change your position; I'm asking you to realize that it's not ALL THE PILOTS AT AIRTRAN trying to come to your front door and demand to have the master bedroom, the TV remote, and you keep paying the mortgage and mowing the lawn. I hate to see the acrimony this early in the game, that's all, when at the end of the day, a deal will be struck somewhere in the middle or an arbitrator will PICK a deal somewhere in the middle, we won't get to be in the driver's seat for it, and *WHO KNOWS* how that will end up. I would prefer pilots from both sides who know each other's respective groups find something equitable. Am I dreaming? Maybe. But I think it's doable, if both sides recognize that BOTH sides bring something to the table.

p.s. Yeah, I get that a lot; because I write very formally, it comes off condescending. It's not intended, my apologies. My demeanor in person isn't nearly as formal (when my coworkers meet me after years of reading the union work I've done and things I've posted on the message board, I get a lot of "you're not like I imagined you".)

I'm with you. I hope that we have a SLI that will be equatible to both sides. I don't want to work with pissed off Airtran (soon to be Southwest) guys and you don't want the reverse. Hopefully the company will throw in some sort of bribe to make this all go easier. I would bet dollars to donuts that any Captain that loses his seat would be pay protected. Thats is what the company has offered in the past and I think they want this deal even more. Lets shoot for prosperity for all.

 

[Fubijaakr]

As someone with no dog in the fight, here's the most fair and equitable way to integrate these two lists:

1. No bump, no flush. You hold your current base seat position until YOU bid out of it.

Since straight ratio would be a HUGE windfall for Air Tran guys, a better method of SLI would combine DoH and ratio. (Disclaimer: I know DoH isn't a component of either ALPA merger/frag or Bond/McCaskill, but hear me out.)

Air Tran's #1 Capt. has a 1993 hire date. So ALL SWA pilots hired prior to 1993 would be placed on the list. After that the first AAI pilot. Then, since there are 3.5 SWA pilots for every AAI pilot, 3 SWA pilots are listed. Then the next AAI pilot. Then 4 SWA pilots, an AAI pilot, 3 SWA pilots and on down until the list is sorted.

It would be a windfall for ANY AAI pilot to be slotted before a 1993 SWA hire. And given the no bump/no flush all current AAI Captains would maintain their left seat.

Granted, all the AAI pilots would get a salary windfall, but SLI deals with SENIORITY windfalls not monetary ones. To suggest that a bump in pay equates with sending AAI guys to the bottom of the list is a non-starter.

Of course you'd have to sort the list and adjust the ratio if there is a seniority bulge anywhere along the line.

 

[Bringupthebird]

That's a longevity integration, not seniority. Seniority is relative by definition. Hasn't US/AWA trainwreck taught you anything?

 

[TV9Driver]

I am a senior AAI f/o within 6 months of upgrade here. I have a few questions...

why do SWA pilots call AAI pilots going to SWA pay rates a windfall? Are you not enjoying that same windfall? I am guessing that a lot of SWA pilots were hired from the regionals where they were working at substandard pay. Isn't this also a windfall for you - making a great salary at a good company? Why would you begrudge AAi pilots also working for these pay rates? Are SWA pilots paying AAI pilots salaries? Are they "losing" something if AAi pilots are on the same pay rates? Then why do some act like this is a gain for AAI pilots and a loss for SWA pilots?

Secondly, like I said earlier, I am a senior f/o (been here 6 years) and was looking at upgrade within the next six months. If I upgrade I will be a Captain making approx $135-140k a year at AirTran. If I am not allowed to upgrade (due to a less favorable integration) I would still be a F/O, making approx $130-140k a year and have my upgrade put off 5-10-15 ? years at SWA. My question is, how is that a "windfall"? Captain, 135k or F/O, 135k, and a 5-15yr upgrade....

I am hopeful that this will resolve itself in a professional and amicable manner. After going through this once before with TWA, I know better than to think that the best in human nature will rise to the surface. I don't want to take away anything from my new SWA brothers - in fact I want to work hard to make sure that everything gets better for ALL of us. But please don't try and take away from me and tell me it's what I deserve.

Good luck everyone. I look forward to working with all of you.

 

[vixin]

I am a senior AAI f/o within 6 months of upgrade here. I have a few questions...

why do SWA pilots call AAI pilots going to SWA pay rates a windfall? Are you not enjoying that same windfall? I am guessing that a lot of SWA pilots were hired from the regionals where they were working at substandard pay. Isn't this also a windfall for you - making a great salary at a good company? Why would you begrudge AAi pilots also working for these pay rates? Because you wont start at the bottom of our list like we all have. Are SWA pilots paying AAI pilots salaries? Thats just stupid. Are they "losing" something if AAi pilots are on the same pay rates? Yes the senority you will bypass. How many trannies have come to SWA the last several years. We have some in the pool even. Why do you think that is? Then why do some act like this is a gain for AAI pilots and a loss for SWA pilots? Because again you will bypass the bottom of the list. Of which we all started on. The majority of AAI will see a huge increase in pay. Dont forget all the other benefits we have you dont.

Secondly, like I said earlier, I am a senior f/o (been here 6 years) and was looking at upgrade within the next six months. Maybe maybe not. You never know until you are upgraded. If I upgrade I will be a Captain making approx $135-140k a year at AirTran. If I am not allowed to upgrade (due to a less favorable integration) I would still be a F/O, making approx $130-140k I would say 140-160 would be a better guess. Not working that hard a year and have my upgrade put off 5-10-15 ? years at SWA. My question is, how is that a "windfall"? Captain, 135k or F/O, 135k, and a 5-15yr upgrade...You would be the very small percentage not seeing a huge increase, but remember our benefits, qol and work rules are better.

I am hopeful that this will resolve itself in a professional and amicable manner. Me too After going through this once before with TWA, I know better than to think that the best in human nature will rise to the surface. I don't want to take away anything from my new SWA brothers - in fact I want to work hard to make sure that everything gets better for ALL of us. But please don't try and take away from me and tell me it's what I deserve.

Good luck everyone. I look forward to working with all of you.

What is fair in your mind. Why should a 7 yr tranny go ahead of our 10 yr SWA guy? I know because of ATL.

 

[texman]

I am a senior AAI f/o within 6 months of upgrade here. I have a few questions...

why do SWA pilots call AAI pilots going to SWA pay rates a windfall? Are you not enjoying that same windfall? I am guessing that a lot of SWA pilots were hired from the regionals where they were working at substandard pay. Isn't this also a windfall for you - making a great salary at a good company? Why would you begrudge AAi pilots also working for these pay rates? Are SWA pilots paying AAI pilots salaries? Are they "losing" something if AAi pilots are on the same pay rates? Then why do some act like this is a gain for AAI pilots and a loss for SWA pilots?

Secondly, like I said earlier, I am a senior f/o (been here 6 years) and was looking at upgrade within the next six months. If I upgrade I will be a Captain making approx $135-140k a year at AirTran. If I am not allowed to upgrade (due to a less favorable integration) I would still be a F/O, making approx $130-140k a year and have my upgrade put off 5-10-15 ? years at SWA. My question is, how is that a "windfall"? Captain, 135k or F/O, 135k, and a 5-15yr upgrade....

I am hopeful that this will resolve itself in a professional and amicable manner. After going through this once before with TWA, I know better than to think that the best in human nature will rise to the surface. I don't want to take away anything from my new SWA brothers - in fact I want to work hard to make sure that everything gets better for ALL of us. But please don't try and take away from me and tell me it's what I deserve.

Good luck everyone. I look forward to working with all of you.

I don't think we are trying to take anything from you. I have been at swa under three years. I will make 120k+. My friend is a 7th year fo and is going to make 170k. You will be amazed by our flexibility to make money and still have 15 days off a month. It's little things like this that are valuable to us. You will see when you get here. It's all good.