Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[FDJ2]

Sure. It's only a bad deal for FO's. Now, lets agree that whatever happens, when they come out of the arbitrators office, we go to work, make money, have fun, not rip the place apart, but anyway, here is why:

The principle is one rooted in biology and living entities, you can only grow so large in your environment and as an entity reaches maturity, growth slows, so in our case, your upgrade progression slows exponentially. Reference why isn't AA or United so much bigger as time goes on? External environmental restrictions, they are as big as they can be in their environment.

As SWA or any airline grows internally/organically, everyone inside the sphere grows at a known rate. You upgrade at a known rate. Upgrade at SWA pure and simple means dollars, like anywhere else.

When growth occurs inorganically, such as a merger, even if you are placed into a position of relative equality to where you were before, your growth potential is slowed exponentially.

Example, your company merges and it doubles in size and now is 50% of the domestic market. Those other airlines are not going to sit and ponder their navel, they will react, lowering their costs, forcing you to tighten your belt further, leveling the field, seeking equalibrium, and slowing your future growth. Your company just got 100% bigger, who inside that company doubled thier seniority? No one.

So, say you were at 30% pre merger with 1000 pilots above you to upgrade, then after merger you are at 30% but have 2000 pilots to move to upgrade. Well, your company just grew 100%, but "your" growth inside that entity just doubled or more. Will the company continue to grow at 10% pre mereger? Not unles it kills the competition, which they won't allow as they are reacting to you for resources: passengers.

Instead of needing to through 1000 pilots at a 5% growth rate, you now need to go through 2000 pilots at 1-3% growth rate. upgrade time slides exponentially right.

This is why a relative deal is unfavorable for 100% of SWA FO's.

Who's achieved a higher percentage of "organic growth" these last 10 years, SWA, or AAI?

My guess is AAI.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Don't agree to something that could be worse than what you may get. Arbitrators will see that you are 2 companies that do the same things (both LCCs, both with mainly domestic flying (AT has some INTL) with planes no larger than 737s. Even though SWA is stronger, AT was not near BK. AT's Capt rates were good, just like SWA Capt rates, with the only main difference being the FO rates. Had AT's Capt rates been half of what SWA's was, then that is different, but the AT rates were pretty good. I have a feeling the ALPA people at AT are going to fight to get 1 for 1, and that is what they should do. Will the arbitrators agree? Probably not, but you have to FIGHT to get what you want, you just don't give in and give it all away, and I don't think the AT guys at ALPA will do that. That wouldn't be PRUDENT.

Regardless, I think ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTICALLY SWELL, and I hope you have a great merger. Be nice to someone everyday. Maybe tomorrow you can push a kid gently on a bike down a quiet street. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

Too much second hand smoke in Amsterdam General? Do some more pay rate research - 5 year F/O rate at SWA = 5 year Capt rate at AT. $50/hr pay raise for each seat for AT.

I say let it go to arbitration and see if pay, work rules and benefits matter when the fuzzy "career expectations" gets defined. This is not merger of relative equals like DL/NWA.

 

[scoreboardII]

Your guess is that in a vacuum you would be correct. I also guess that SWA has been manuevering to remove AAI from the competitor list for five years, they have hoarded cash, and now strike the deal. End result, Swa is growing 20% today. How much is AAI growing today? It's all relative my friend.

The AirTran CEO made a statement in today's USA Today that might be of some benefit. He said,

"(AirTran had) done a lot with not much in terms of financial resources, but that it was becoming less clear that AirTran had the ability to grow and remain competitive in an industry where the size of a carrier's route network is increasingly important."​

 

[FDJ2]

Actually, SWA wants AAI gone more than it wants AAI. You buy up a competitor you have one less competitor. If AAI was in the financial position to buy SWA it would have not because it needed SWA but because it wants SWA gone.

Doesn't matter, in either case SWA needs this transaction. Oherwise why pursue it? Call the SLI the cost of doing business. Sorry, you don't get to buy someone elses career.

 

[N1kawotg]

It won't be relative, it won't be a staple; when it's all said and done, I won't hold anamosity to anyone I fly with and will go with what it is. There really is no other choice...but until that time, I will try to remain objective and point out exactly where I'm coming from. I just wish Southwest were being bought by a company whose pilots made 40% more, had a great relationship with management, enjoyed going to work, and, by the way, I get to keep my relative seniority. Sign me up for that!

Well said. This is just day 2 and it'll been interesting to watch it unfold.

 

[FDJ2]

It's all relative my friend.

Get use to that "relative" term.

 

[T45Flyer]

OK, this whole thing has gone south rather quickly, but I'm going to give you a little reality check in the form of a primer on Bond-McCaskill.


1st, there is no "self-help". What are you going to do as an F/O? Call in sick? Stand on the brakes so the CA can't taxi? WTFO? Wow, no kidding. That term was being used in a generic sense. Meaning the world is grey, not black and white like you are stating.

2nd, the General is absolutely correct in using the NWA/DAL merger/acquisition as a baseline for comparison. Why? Because that's what an arbitrator is going to do. In reality, it will probably be Frontier/Republic that will be the baseline for this arbitration.

You have two relatively healthy companies, one "acquires" the other, although they call it a merger (sound familiar?) and they have to integrate seniority lists. You can bet that an arbitrator will look VERY closely at how DAL/NWA was integrated to see how it applies to our scenario.

Hint: I know a little something about arbitrators using past precedent to make decisions.


No, that can't happen. I'll get to that in a sec.


On the contrary, from what I'm hearing, your SWAPA colleagues proposed something quite untenable for the AirTran pilots today. They are hard at work to represent your best interests, as are our representatives from the AirTran ALPA MEC. It's an opening position, and it's negotiations. Like you said before, it's business, not personal, although your vitriolic post makes me suspect it *IS* rather personal for you. By your "I'm all knowing and superior" tone, I can say the same about you. But, I will take it down a notch. It's easy to post when your ticked off. Doesn't change my position though.


July 2011. Yes, that's right, about 10 months from now. Why? That's easy.
Now that truly is funny! Its could take 6 months to iron out the transition agreement with the company. When we finally do start at SLI negotiations you think we will go from start, to completion of Arbitration in FOUR months. Now that is truly interesting. No, impossible.

You cannot force AirTran pilots to work on a B-scale indefinitely. I never said that. I said if QOL is all your truly worried about, a "B" scale solution can probably be worked out in everyones favor. I realize that will never happen, just calling BS on some of the posts written by Airtran guys. You really, really need to go read Bond-McCaskill before you post further on the subject. As a primer I promised earlier in my post, here's the meat and bones of it:

After a few months of negotiations and the parties hit a stalemate, EITHER ONE can go to the NMB and invoke their right to BINDING ARBITRATION. At that point, you have maybe a year,(All of the times keep adding up)I agree, I am trying to make a point that Airtran pilots cannot have it all, they have to give something up if they want any Southwest pilots to buy off on a SLI deal. and a binding arbitration decision gets passed down. I can guarantee you, based on previous decisions, an arbitrator isn't going to let you set up a B-scale for AirTran pilots.

The General was spot-on in his previous post: the AirTran pilots will start enjoying the benefits of the Southwest contract and you could wind up with a MUCH WORSE position in an SLI than negotiating it. I could not agree more. Your Airtran guys are the ones touting pay raise and relative seniority. Your a moderator, go back and read some of the posts on this subject.

None of us want that. We are happy that this is happening, most of us have a lot of friends over there that we are looking forward to working with again. We have been fair with other airlines when we were in the driver's seat, we simply ask that you extend us the same courtesy. That will happen, but you will have to be willing to give some as we give. All these things (pay, qol, schedule, work rules) that you are about to benefit from, we have worked hard to secure over the years. If you think it was easy to do, I ask why we are not taking your pay rates? Whether it's relative seniority or a slotted integration with pay protection and fences, I don't really care. I just want what the majority of AirTran pilots want: a good career with a good income with a stable company and don't hose me.

Hopefully both sides will be reasonable, I am just not counting on it.

 

[texman]

Wrong. I'm a 10th year Captain, and that puts me in the middle of the 737 CA list. Our 2010 Contract is nearly TA'd, basically all sections except for the pay rates and retirement.

Under our 2001 Contract, I make about $6 more per hour than a SWA FO of the same longevity, however,

Under our current pay proposal, I would make about $27./hr more than a 10th year SWA FO, or about $30,000. more than I would as a SWA FO.

So, no, I would not be willing to take a $30K pay cut to downgrade to be a SWA FO, sorry. And why should I? I get decent schedules, have an easy commute, spend less than 1 night a month in ATL, and haven't worked a Thanksgiving or Christmas since I don't know when.

You clowns that are "negotiating" on this board on AirTran pilots' behalf need to have a nice big cup of STFU because you sure don't speak for me or the top half our seniority list . . . ie the Pilots who have put in a decade or more here.

I'll be happy to do the same job at SWA I do here, flying Captain on a 737, but it is not a big "windfall" for me, and I'm not willing to give up a whole lot, otherwise, I'd rather keep doing what I'm doing under a new AirTran contract, thank you.

I have 35 years left at SWA and I am a JR FO. Are you going to be a good captain? Relax brother it's all good.

 

[T45Flyer]

Who's achieved a higher percentage of "organic growth" these last 10 years, SWA, or AAI?

My guess is AAI.

No kidding. A company that has 138 airplanes versus a company that has 550 airplanes. I think its pretty easy to gain a higher percentage.

 

[FO 4 Life]

As an outsider, I have a question I haven't seen. Everyone is talking about growth here/there, a/c deliveries, SLI, etc.

Does anyone think SWA is going to run a hub and spoke airline? Just wondering since that seems to go against their business model.

 

[scoreboardII]

They already run hub and spoke, they just don't call it that.

 

[SWA/FO]

If I have to downgrade I will lose money

You will make more money at SWA.

 

[Ty Webb]

I have 35 years left at SWA and I am a JR FO. Are you going to be a good captain? Relax brother it's all good.

Actually, my post was directed more at the AirTran pilot who was willing to negotiate my seat away in his enthusiasm to "get a deal".

I don't claim to know what the solution is, but no one should be forcibly displaced from a seat, equipment or base by this deal. Why should we . . . or you?

My "expectations" as an ATL 737 CA at a growing AirTran is to remain a ATL 737 CA with improving seniority as we continue to hire and take deliveries. In regards to this merger, well, I don't expect to bump anyone, or be bumped.

 

[vixin]

DO you pay bills with a darn seat? Who gives a crap about being a CA? If your pay went up, QOL was close to the same and and didnt have to commute would that make you happy if you lost a stupid stripe. Give up the CA god montra already. Geez! News flash we held down growth so SWA could purchase the tranny. We are starting growth mode 1st of next year also. Nobody knows what SWA growth plans would have been without this purchase.

What do you think Gary woke up the other day drove to a 7/11 and decided to purchase Airtran? Something tells me it has been planned for longer then a night or two.

 

[Metrojet]

I'm going to take a deep breath and tell you that I am NOT trying to piss you off when I say -

You aint getting straight up relative seniority if "fair" is the goal.

Our senior pilot was hired in 1977. Yours 1993. Our Captains make over $50/hr MORE than yours, our FO's? Over $50/hr more.

You guys don't bring growth. You ARE our growth. If you guys think we are going to just start hiring and adding city pairs like mad after this you are delusional. We will be 7500 pilots and almost 700 airplanes strong. There just won't be a hell of a lot that we can do beyond that with any significant frequency that will really put a dent in things.

Convince me how relative is fair?

Gup

Hey Guppy -

Don't be talking like that out in PHX if your near any former AWA guys - they will take legal action - their hero is "the NIC" (I think he is still doing SLI work)

Metrojet

(And I apologize in advance if it looks like I am trying to hijack the thread and compare SWA/Airtrain integration to US/AWA)

 

[Ty Webb]

DO you pay bills with a darn seat? Who gives a crap about being a CA? If your pay went up, QOL was close to the same and and didnt have to commute would that make you happy if you lost a stupid stripe.

Maybe you didn't read my post, but for many AirTran pilots, FO would be a pay cut, for some it would be a very substantial pay cut.

AirTran just had it's most profitable year ever, and has 50 aircraft on order, for growth. We don't need this merger, far from it. We're growing and hiring RIGHT NOW . . . .

Now, if you want to pay me 10th yr CA pay to fly FO, that's different, but don't tell me I should downgrade and take a pay cut to be a SWA pilot. If you don't understand that, then we don't have anything to talk about, do we?

 

[General Lee]

General Lee and all my future Airtran friends, I could not AGREE MORE.

Congrats! You just made a Southwest's guys argument. Don't you feel dirty now?

BTW, Have a super-duper wonderful day!

RESPECTFULLY, please have your union tell it to the arbitrators, AT's ALPA people will. And, there won't be anything anyone can do about the result. You are both LCCs, have the same type of planes, and both companies are healthy. Don't expect to be an outright winner in this, because the real winners will be the ones who get huge raises, and get good spots on the SLI. In the meantime, your combined company will grow, and you will eventually upgrade, albeit a few years after most people initially thought. That's life. But, remember, YOU GUYS ARE ALL GREAT PEOPLE. ENJOY THAT LIFE, WILL YA? I DO.

Regardlesss, you guys hopefully will have a FANTASTIC DAY tomorrow, and if you can, if you can remember to, just do something nice for someone pr something else, like tearing off a small corner of a saltine cracker and giving it to a sparrow. See ya!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[vixin]

There would not be a pay cut. Maybe you misread my post. I truly believe worst case your pay would be protected...ie stay the same. Most likely increase. As well as better benefits and work rules. Not to mention lower cost insurance, but with Obamas healthcare screw job who knows on that one.

Funny how you glanced over the concept the SWA has been planning this for longer then a week or two.

 

[General Lee]

Maybe you didn't read my post, but for many AirTran pilots, FO would be a pay cut, for some it would be a very substantial pay cut.

AirTran just had it's most profitable year ever, and has 50 aircraft on order, for growth. We don't need this merger, far from it. We're growing and hiring RIGHT NOW . . . .

Now, if you want to pay me 10th yr CA pay to fly FO, that's different, but don't tell me I should downgrade and take a pay cut to be a SWA pilot. If you don't understand that, then we don't have anything to talk about, do we?

Ty, buddy, who said you would go to FO? Arbitrators will decide the SLI. Sit back and relax my pal. Don't fall for this stuff. Believe it or not, you have people and lawyers at your disposal (via ALPA) that have been through this before. You will make your case, and they will try to make theirs, and then arbitrators will decide. Remember, Garry Kelly didn't go to SWAPA first to ask them about all of this, he went public. The Bond/McCaskil bill won't allow a staple. Wall ST wants clean mergers. SWA and SWAPA will have to take it to an arbitrator, or it will turn into USAir all over again. That is how it will pan out, and ALPA will have to put up a good fight for you. They will. Chillax.


And to all my SWA and AT buddies, I say, HAVE A FANTASTIC DAY! If you have a chance, try to be nice to somebody tomorrow. Buy someone a small cup of clam chowder. See ya!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Whataburger]

Reserve?

 

[Full of LUV]

There would not be a pay cut. Maybe you misread my post. I truly believe worst case your pay would be protected...ie stay the same. Most likely increase. As well as better benefits and work rules. Not to mention lower cost insurance, but with Obamas healthcare screw job who knows on that one.

Funny how you glanced over the concept the SWA has been planning this for longer then a week or two.

So the company would pay AT guys at captain's pay, but put them as FO's on the SLI? Maybe for a couple dozen, but that would get real expensive in a hurry if all of the AT guys were put at DOH.....

 

[General Lee]

Reserve?

Hey buddy, do you mean me? Not in 10 years. Nope. Have great schedules and fly to fun places. As far as anyone else? I don't really know. You know, I could easily say "ELP?" for you, but that would be mean, and I have changed my ways and want to HELP people like you now. I want to be BEST FRIENDS with you guys, and talk about FANTASTIC things.

Regardless, have a FANTASTIC night, and try not to worry about AT guys moving West. It will be ALRIGHT. You will be FINE, I am pretty sure about that. ENJOY everything, and if you can, try to be nice to someone tomorrow, like cleaning cans out of a vacant lot next to your local park. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

So the company would pay AT guys at captain's pay, but put them as FO's on the SLI? Maybe for a couple dozen, but that would get real expensive in a hurry if all of the AT guys were put at DOH.....

Since you aren't in the same union and don't have rules pertaining to merger integration for both of you, the arbitrators will likely look at recent precedence. That would mean relative seniority. USAir East got the top 500 spots at USAIr because they did something that AWA didn't do--INTL widebody. If you guys don't have something like that, I would think it would be relative but maybe the first few hundred may be more weighed towards SWA since they have more longevity.

Regardless, you both have FANTASTIC days upcoming here, and try to do something nice for somebody or something tomorrow, like feeding a chimp at the local zoo a banana when the guards aren't watching. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[vixin]

Not really. AT CA pay is less then SWA FO pay most years. If its not AT pay is margianally larger. I think an AT 10 yr CA and above may make a few thousand more then SWA 10yr FO's. One gets pay protected at the current rate. Once they reach a SWA rate that is more then they receive that SWA rate.

 

[kc81900]

Doesn't matter, in either case SWA needs this transaction. Oherwise why pursue it? Call the SLI the cost of doing business. Sorry, you don't get to buy someone elses career.

Actually, your wrong both swa and aai want this transaction. This isn't a hostile takeover. AAI wants this transaction (needs (your words)) just as much as SWA. AAI does not want to be left out of the post merger airline industry. SWA was going to buy someone and AAI wanted to be that someone. I can guarantee you AAI was very much pursuing this deal. AAI would be trying to buy SWA if it had the money.

Oh yeah, you don't have a birth right to someone elses contract. Call the SLI the cost of a superior contract. AAI pilots will realize $1.5 million more in compensation over a 25 year career thanks to southwest pilots. Who is (buying) who's career!!!!!!!!!!

As for AAI pilots argument to growth, aircraft orders, upgrades that is all a mythical creature doesn't exist until its on property and you are in the seat and even then it can all go the other way in a very short period of time. None of that is ever guaranteed we all know that. You can be growing hand over fist one month and all that can be cancelled in the blink of an eye. That argument simply doesn't hold water. You have no right to that left seat just ask usair pilots even pre merger. AAI is profitable and growing (yes) for how long no one knows not even a AAI pilot.

 

[crj410]

AirTran just had it's most profitable year ever, and has 50 aircraft on order, for growth. We don't need this merger, far from it. We're growing and hiring RIGHT NOW .

what postion do you hold on the company board of directors to make such a bold statment like that. i think your in disagreement with your CEO. we're you left out of that meeting.

 

[Full of LUV]

Not really. AT CA pay is less then SWA FO pay most years. If its not AT pay is margianally larger. I think an AT 10 yr CA and above may make a few thousand more then SWA 10yr FO's. One gets pay protected at the current rate. Once they reach a SWA rate that is more then they receive that SWA rate.

Vixin,
I see that the SWAPA wants fences as well, why wouldn't the company then just move as much flying to the fenced ATL base since they are paying a lower wage than the rest? Also, who would be the captains at the fenced ATL base if the AT pilots could no longer hold captain?

I think you will get a JCBA first which will give the AT guys the huge raises and hopefully a least a small raise with some stock to the SWA guys. Then they will begin on the SLI which will go to arbitration, but be binding. This is the way it went down in the DAL/NWA merger and yes the NWA guys had just been handed big raises, but for the SLI, that windfall argument didn't go far as the assumption was that the pay would have marginalized eventually anyway.
Best of luck, SWA is truly a major airline now with major issues. Overall, this will probably be better for the whole industry, just hard to stomach if your just short of upgrade at SWA or AT for that matter.
LUV

 

[FlyinGuy]

I was hoping that things on these boards did not go down hill this fast, but it is FI!!!

We (SWA & AT guys) need to step back and not get emotional. There is a lot at stake for all involved but we both have negotiating committees that will do the fighting in the trenches for us. When they emerge, we will all be the new SWA. Take some time and look at what we have to potential to do on the domestic and near international markets. In the next 10 years things could be great for all of us.

So I want to say to all the Air Tran pilots...Welcome aboard. My Capt will buy the drinks!!!

 

[carl p]

Part of the reason the pay numbers are so skewed is that your comparing to the AT 2001 contract. When the new contract ends up around Alaska rates the gap will be closer and the argument that pay is such a huge windfall AAI pilots should suffer in the SLI won't hold water.

These are GK's thoughts on what AT brings to the dance:

Gary Shares His Thoughts on AirTran Acquisition
By: Gary Kelly on Sep 27, 2010 at 8:30am
It’s bright and early here in Dallas, well before dawn. By now, I’m sure you’ve heard our historic news about a contract to acquire AirTran. It is enormously exciting. But, as I was driving in this morning, lost in thought, I found myself thinking about the People of Southwest Airlines. I’m not normally on the road this early, on deserted streets. But many of you are A.M.-ers. I just appreciate you, and what you do for Southwest and our Customers every day, so much.
As I said in my Mid-Year Update, it’s been a brutal recession, on top of a grueling decade. Growth opportunities are very hard to come by in this economy. While we had no plans to grow the fleet, we have persevered, and are doing well. We’re healthy financially, and a lot better than a year ago.
Let me tell you, we’ve found a way. The opportunities for growth that flow from an AirTran acquisition are enormous: more destinations; more Customers; more flights; and more profits. All of that adds up to growth, more aircraft, and more jobs.
Today, in fact, buoyed by our increased 2011 profit outlook that AirTran brings, Mike Van de Ven, our Chief Operating Officer, is announcing new hire classes for Pilots and Flight Attendants. That, in and of itself, is very exciting because that’s the first time we’ve hired since 2008.
Now, back to the deal with AirTran. This deal has been a long time in the making. It will be months before we actually close and own them. In the meantime, we each continue as independent Companies, and competitors for that matter.

Here’s what they bring to us:
1. They are a high-quality, low-cost operation
2. They are a solid, low-fare brand
3. They have a meaningful route network that allows us to strategically expand ours
4. They have a compatible, young, all-Boeing fleet with 53 future deliveries
5. They are a profitable business at an affordable price
The acquisition of AirTran sets the stage for us to resume our own fleet growth; for two reasons: it boosts our profits to satisfactory levels and it provides numerous route opportunities that need to be added, particularly out of Atlanta. And growth means more jobs.
This is the dawn of a new and exciting decade for Southwest Airlines, and I am very optimistic about our future. We’ve always said some things about Southwest Airlines will change, and some never will. Rest assured, Southwest remains committed to our original mission of providing low fares and great Customer Service, and we are totally committed to providing job security for our Employees.
We have a lot of work ahead of us, and it will take all of us working together. Southwest Warriors, I know I can count on you.
This is a good deal. When I say that, the first test has to be, is it good for our People. Oh, yeah!
I encourage you to check SWALife for further information.

Thanks for tuning in.
Gary C. Kelly

 

[kc81900]

I have read a lot about how relative seniority is the only way to go its the only fair and equitable thing to do. But no one supports that stance with any facts just talk about career expectations and growth and aircraft orders. Both airlines have career expectations, aircraft on order, and growth plans. Talk that I am in the left seat or that I am senior in this seat and I have the right to keep that seat or that relative seniority.

Let's look at one pilot the guys half way up the list at both carriers.

Airtran pilot was hired Sept 2004 SWA pilot hired Mar. 2001. So if the airtran pilot was given relative seniority he would gain 3.5 years seniortiy.

airtran pilot is an F.O. SWA pilot is a Captain. The airtran pilot remaining an F.O. would receive a 69% pay raise. (info taken from available seniorty list)

Airtran pilot would gain 3.5 years seniority all SWA pilots hired between Sept 2004 (airtrans DOH) and March 2001 (airtrans new relative seniority) would be leap frogged by this airtran pilot with his/her new super seniority.

Airtran pilot would get first upgrade over SWA pilots hired between the above dates realizing a 168% pay raise. All at the cost of SWA pilots

Where is the fair where is the equitable. Seems awful one sided to me.

would love to see someone try to argue these facts against relative seniority.

THE ONLY RELATIVE YOUR GOING TO GET IS YOUR SISTER.