Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[kc81900]

T45 and Co..
Can someone from SWA explain to me why relative seniority is such a bad deal for you?
i mean.. do you really think that airtran is going to come in and get better then relative seniority and you are going to get worse? That means worst case you will be right where you are today, only with future growth.
I understand the upgrade times might be delayed.. but which side will now face a longer delay?
This is a lot different then buying (F9) a company in bankruptcy and shrinking and trying to preserve jobs. -I for one prefer the DAL/NWA model over the LCC/AW one.

Lets take a look at 4 pilots on each list
#1 pilots, at 25%, 50% and 75% levels

#1 seniority
SWA DOH Sept. 1974 pay rate $206
A.T DOH Sept 1993 pay rate $153 net gain 35% raise and 19yrs seniority

25% level
SWA DOH Mar 1996 pay rate $206
A.T DOH Mar 2001 pay rate $144 net gain 43% raise and 5 years seniority

50% level
SWA DOH Mar 2001 pay rate $199
A.T DOH Sept 2004 pay rate $74 net gain 69% raise and 3.5 years

75% level
SWA DOH Nov 2005 pay rate $124
A.T DOH Aug 2006 pay rate $66 net gain 88% raise and 1.3 years

payrates taken from airlinepilotcentral.com

Please will some one who believes in relative seniority explain to me #1 how is that fair and #2 how that wouldn't be a windfall.

Someone mentioned career expectations well we all have career expectations but those are not guaranteed. When I was hired upgrade was 5 years...things change ie. retirement age, recession etc.... why does airtran pilots career expectations trump Southwest pilots expectations?

 

[kc81900]

Should us Airtran folks be able to keep our respective seats? We are bringing our aircraft to the party you know. It's not like we are showing up with a 6 pack of Schlitz. If I have to downgrade I will lose money, not have a windfall. The fact that your payrates are higher doesn't cost the any pilot anything. Seniority and seat position are the only cost to us line pilots.

To be accurate all we pilots bring is our contracts neither pilot group/union owns one airplane, has their name on one operating certificate nor leases gates at any city. We as the pilots own nothing but our contracts so negotiate with what is your to negotiate with. All else is owned by your management.

As to your last sentence "Seniority and seat position are the only cost to us line pilots" then why did to vote to strike? you already have your seniority and seat position!

 

[Old Crow]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

 

[goahead]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

So true

 

[Full of LUV]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

Exactly... anyone thinks they are going to present an "ah-ha" moment to the other side is just kidding themselves.

 

[FDJ2]

It's an acquisition staple is fair, the other option is unemployment.

Doesn't matter what you call it. The nature of a transaction is not relevant. A-M will decide the list if a negotiated settlement is not reached.

 

[FDJ2]

Convince me how relative is fair?

Gup

737 captain, meet 737 captain, you both brought the same to the party.

SWA is trying to buy AAI, because SWA needs AAI, you need AAI. Get over it. You are equal partners in your joint future.

Welcome to the party.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

This is stupid and a waste of energy. The respective merger committees have just met....and we have these childish games and name calling going on....from...."professionals"?

Support your respective merger committee, let them do their jobs and we'll see what happens.

It will not be decided on FI.com....no ....really....it won't.

 

[N1kawotg]

So you would make me an FO at the bottom of your list, but pay protect me at 275 g's a year? Hmm, you sure about that? BTW, we don't have 7 year captains anymore...but whatever. Good luck with that line of reasoning.

I was trying to refer to a brand new upgraded Capt whose company was just bought that has less longevity than a senior FO at the company whose doing the buying. What's fair then? A twenty year capt for a major should be entitled to something, but its going be what's negotiated. Now as far as pay protection, it would be for those who will make less from intergration. And why not pay your guarantee. It'll be cheaper for the company vs making you them a capt and letting you pick up above guarantee. Isn't that what happened with Morris.

The real winners-stock holders

 

[crj410]

Compare this industry to the real world. In a buyout hypothetically speaking lets say ( microsft buys apple ). Do you really think that all jobs would be preserved? Usually the aquiring company calls the shots. So why is it different for this industry. Your CEO ( airtran ) decided to sell your company. This crap happens everyday. The average JOE what he asks himself is ( will I lose my job? ) But Joe the pilot says ( dont F with my life and schedule and pay. ? ) come back to reality. Go ask any pilot on furlough and ask him where he would like to be right now. With a pay increase at a major airline that actually cares about their employees along with better schedules rigs etc. or sitting at the bottom of an RJ carrier with a REAL CRAP PAY AND SCHEDULE. Forget your superior forcasting abilities about how you r supposed to upgrade and how life is going to be so good once we sign our contract. Blah blah blah. I have heard this all to well at my previous carrier, who had also had in there contract a stipulation to Guarenteed number of aircraft ie 160. their contract is now flushed down the toilet and half the number of aircraft. IF A pilot group is set to gain X, then to be fair, you need to give B pilot group something of equal value to them. You cant expect to gain everything and give up nothing in return. Your smoking the wrong pipe.

 

[Skybus]

OMG!! Can you whiney ass bitches STFU until something actually happens.

 

[FDJ2]

NWA/DAL were close to same pilot longevity, age, etc. Therefore relative seniority did make sense. Here there are two growing(both still getting jets and cities) but one has been around 40 years and the other 17. If AA bought SWA, I would also feel SWA wasn't entitled to relative seniority since it would be lopsided a 7 years capt at SWA going in front of a 22 year AA FO-yeah that seems fair. Pay protection and job security yes. Seniority no.

The longevity argument FAILS. What matters is what you bring to the merger. SWA pilots MIGHT get some credit for a larger percentage of retirements in the near term, but that's about it.

As for the pay rate issues others talk about, AAI is in section 6, it's a guess as to what they might have achieved absent this merger, it might have been SWA+

My prediction: The merger committee that establishes credibility will drive the SLI result.

 

[shagadelic]

It won't be relative, it won't be a staple; when it's all said and done, I won't hold anamosity to anyone I fly with and will go with what it is. There really is no other choice...but until that time, I will try to remain objective and point out exactly where I'm coming from. I just wish Southwest were being bought by a company whose pilots made 40% more, had a great relationship with management, enjoyed going to work, and, by the way, I get to keep my relative seniority. Sign me up for that!

 

[kc81900]

737 captain, meet 737 captain, you both brought the same to the party.

SWA is trying to buy AAI, because SWA needs AAI, you need AAI. Get over it. You are equal partners in your joint future.

Welcome to the party.

Actually, SWA wants AAI gone more than it wants AAI. You buy up a competitor you have one less competitor. If AAI was in the financial position to buy SWA it would have not because it needed SWA but because it wants SWA gone.

 

[Nindiri]

Compare this industry to the real world. In a buyout hypothetically speaking lets say ( microsft buys apple ). Do you really think that all jobs would be preserved? Usually the aquiring company calls the shots. So why is it different for this industry. Your CEO ( airtran ) decided to sell your company. This crap happens everyday. The average JOE what he asks himself is ( will I lose my job? ) But Joe the pilot says ( dont F with my life and schedule and pay. ? )

I guess Average Joe should have had the good sense and forethought to organize and protect himself with a CBA like Joe the Pilot did.