Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[ASADFW7]

FYI pay comparison.
AT 88 hours year pay
1 $43.00 $3,784.00 $45,408.00
2 $56.00 $4,928.00 $59,136.00
3 $61.00 $5,368.00 $64,416.00
4 $66.00 $5,808.00 $69,696.00
5 $72.00 $6,336.00 $76,032.00
6 $74.00 $6,512.00 $78,144.00
7 $127.00 $11,176.00 $134,112.00 upgrade
8 $132.00 $11,616.00 $139,392.00
9 $137.00 $12,056.00 $144,672.00
10 $144.00 $12,672.00 $152,064.00
11 $147.00 $12,936.00 $155,232.00
12 $153.00 $13,464.00 $161,568.00
starting age first five years next ten next ten till retirement total
30 $314,688.00 $1,449,888.00 $1,615,680.00 $1,615,680.00 $4,995,936.00
35 $314,688.00 $1,449,888.00 $1,615,680.00 $807,840.00 $4,188,096.00
40 $314,688.00 $1,449,888.00 $1,615,680.00 $3,380,256.00
45 $314,688.00 $1,449,888.00 $807,840.00 $2,572,416.00

SWA 88 hours year pay
1 $54.00 $4,752.00 $57,024.00
2 $92.00 $8,096.00 $97,152.00
3 $102.00 $8,976.00 $107,712.00
4 $108.00 $9,504.00 $114,048.00
5 $124.00 $10,912.00 $130,944.00
6 $129.00 $11,352.00 $136,224.00
7 $132.00 $11,616.00 $139,392.00
8 $136.00 $11,968.00 $143,616.00
9 $137.00 $12,056.00 $144,672.00
10 $141.00 $12,408.00 $148,896.00
11 $204.00 $17,952.00 $215,424.00 upgrade
12 $206.00 $18,128.00 $217,536.00
starting age first five years next ten next ten till retirement total
30 $506,880.00 $1,798,368.00 $2,175,360.00 $2,175,360.00 $6,655,968.00
35 $506,880.00 $1,798,368.00 $2,175,360.00 $1,087,680.00 $5,568,288.00
40 $506,880.00 $1,798,368.00 $2,175,360.00 $4,480,608.00
45 $506,880.00 $1,798,368.00 $1,087,680.00 $3,392,928.00

Closer to true SWA monthly pay average

SWA 105 per month year pay
$54 $5,670 $68,040
$92 $9,660 $115,920
$102 $10,710 $128,520
$108 $11,340 $136,080
$124 $13,020 $156,240
$129 $13,545 $162,540
$132 $13,860 $166,320
$136 $14,280 $171,360
$137 $14,385 $172,620
$141 $14,805 $177,660
$204 $21,420 $257,040 upgrade
$206 $21,630 $259,560
starting age first five years next ten next ten till retirement total
30 $617,400 $2,145,780 $2,595,600 $2,472,000 $7,830,780
35 $588,000 $2,043,600 $2,472,000 $1,236,000 $6,339,600
40 $588,000 $2,043,600 $2,472,000 $5,103,600
45 $588,000 $2,043,600 $1,236,000 $3,867,600

 

[Ty Webb]

If an AirTran Captain was to get bumped down the list to an FO position I'm about 100% sure they wouldn't have to worry about a pay cut..

Wrong. I'm a 10th year Captain, and that puts me in the middle of the 737 CA list. Our 2010 Contract is nearly TA'd, basically all sections except for the pay rates and retirement.

Under our 2001 Contract, I make about $6 more per hour than a SWA FO of the same longevity, however,

Under our current pay proposal, I would make about $27./hr more than a 10th year SWA FO, or about $30,000. more than I would as a SWA FO.

So, no, I would not be willing to take a $30K pay cut to downgrade to be a SWA FO, sorry. And why should I? I get decent schedules, have an easy commute, spend less than 1 night a month in ATL, and haven't worked a Thanksgiving or Christmas since I don't know when.

You clowns that are "negotiating" on this board on AirTran pilots' behalf need to have a nice big cup of STFU because you sure don't speak for me or the top half our seniority list . . . ie the Pilots who have put in a decade or more here.

I'll be happy to do the same job at SWA I do here, flying Captain on a 737, but it is not a big "windfall" for me, and I'm not willing to give up a whole lot, otherwise, I'd rather keep doing what I'm doing under a new AirTran contract, thank you.

 

[b747dogg]

WRONG! There's a former SWA guy at our training center right now going through initial. I love how everyone's an expert.

I'm going to call BS on this one!!! Unless he was fired. Also, we have alot of former Airtran guys at SWA, including myself. Would the Airtran guys rather have their current pay with relative senoirity or a staple with our pay and QOL?

 

[Lear70]

OK, this whole thing has gone south rather quickly, but I'm going to give you a little reality check in the form of a primer on Bond-McCaskill.

General,

The NWA/DAL merger was never compared in my statement. I do know that there is more than one way to skin a cat. If one side of the negotiating table is unwilling to negotiate in good faith, then the other side has to do a little "self help".

1st, there is no "self-help". What are you going to do as an F/O? Call in sick? Stand on the brakes so the CA can't taxi? WTFO?

2nd, the General is absolutely correct in using the NWA/DAL merger/acquisition as a baseline for comparison. Why? Because that's what an arbitrator is going to do.

You have two relatively healthy companies, one "acquires" the other, although they call it a merger (sound familiar?) and they have to integrate seniority lists. You can bet that an arbitrator will look VERY closely at how DAL/NWA was integrated to see how it applies to our scenario.

Hint: I know a little something about arbitrators using past precedent to make decisions.

I think we do have quite a big carrot to dangle in from of their face. Airtran pilots could be flying Southwest painted planes for a long time while they collect Airtran wages.

No, that can't happen. I'll get to that in a sec.

I know everyone likes to think the Southwest guys are going to roll over and take what we get. I disagree.

On the contrary, from what I'm hearing, your SWAPA colleagues proposed something quite untenable for the AirTran pilots today. They are hard at work to represent your best interests, as are our representatives from the AirTran ALPA MEC. It's an opening position, and it's negotiations. Like you said before, it's business, not personal, although your vitriolic post makes me suspect it *IS* rather personal for you.

I do not dislike Airtran guys. This is business. We can shake hands and grab a cold one when this is over. My guess, July 2017. Any other guesses?

July 2011. Yes, that's right, about 10 months from now. Why? That's easy.

You cannot force AirTran pilots to work on a B-scale indefinitely. You really, really need to go read Bond-McCaskill before you post further on the subject. As a primer I promised earlier in my post, here's the meat and bones of it:

After a few months of negotiations and the parties hit a stalemate, EITHER ONE can go to the NMB and invoke their right to BINDING ARBITRATION. At that point, you have maybe a year, and a binding arbitration decision gets passed down. I can guarantee you, based on previous decisions, an arbitrator isn't going to let you set up a B-scale for AirTran pilots.

The General was spot-on in his previous post: the AirTran pilots will start enjoying the benefits of the Southwest contract and you could wind up with a MUCH WORSE position in an SLI than negotiating it.

None of us want that. We are happy that this is happening, most of us have a lot of friends over there that we are looking forward to working with again. We have been fair with other airlines when we were in the driver's seat, we simply ask that you extend us the same courtesy. Whether it's relative seniority or a slotted integration with pay protection and fences, I don't really care. I just want what the majority of AirTran pilots want: a good career with a good income with a stable company and don't hose me.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm going to call BS on this one!!! Unless he was fired. Also, we have alot of former Airtran guys at SWA, including myself. Would the Airtran guys rather have their current pay with relative senoirity or a staple with our pay and QOL?

If those were the two choices, I'd rather keep doing what I'm doing, thanks. I didn't ask for this any more than you did, and I'm not giving up my seat to subsidize your lack of growth.

 

[Full of LUV]

age 65????

As you well imagine our internal (union) website is white hot with predictions, joy, anger, dismay, disgust and probably every emotion in between.

I don't speak for anyone other than myself.

I am hoping for the best (an amicable) resolution that utilizes a career expectation model to proffer a solution. Having said that, I am expecting and preparing for a protracted battle.

Many first officers who have shared their thoughts with me are stunned and angry. Many feel that they were sold out by SWAPA and SWA (and that is before the first integration plan is floated). The background as to why they feel that way is obvious to many of us who are in the left seat. Age 65, zero growth ... actually we have shrunk a fair amount since late 2008, downgrades and now the possibility that Relative Seniority could push them further from upgrade all contribute to some pretty fired up first officers.

This proposed merger has the potential to be a grand slam for the pilots or a disaster which most likely will define Gary Kelly's legacy as CEO of SWA.

Again, I am praying reasonable men (and women) will prevail.

SWAPA has/was advocating for age 65 or beyond for at least all of the '90's and 2000's. If your an FO at SWA, your union was the principle candleholder for the age 65 issue for the better part of 25 years, you were hired into that position and didn't speak up until it bit you in the arse.....

 

[K-Mart]

How much money is Airtran making out of ATL the past few years??

 

[Full of LUV]

I don't work for either airline, but how much growth would you expect on you're 'A' side of the airline?

Exactly, if that were to transpire, GK would just place all arriving metal on the AAI side and retire as much SWA metal as possible. There is no scope clause internal to the company, and since both fly the same type, very easily done.

 

[shagadelic]

Wrong. I'm a 10th year Captain, and that puts me in the middle of the 737 CA list. Our 2010 Contract is nearly TA'd, basically all sections except for the pay rates and retirement.

Ty, I'm an eleven year Captain; I'm going to make $275,000 this year, but I'm in the bottom 10% of our captains. You are a ten year captain, in the middle of your captain's list. If I had been hired by Airtran, I'd be in the 300's seniority at your company. Do you honestly think you should go above me based on relative seniority? Seriously?

I want a fair integration, and don't think a staple is fair...but relative?? No way.

 

[N1kawotg]

NWA/DAL were close to same pilot longevity, age, etc. Therefore relative seniority did make sense. Here there are two growing(both still getting jets and cities) but one has been around 40 years and the other 17. If AA bought SWA, I would also feel SWA wasn't entitled to relative seniority since it would be lopsided a 7 years capt at SWA going in front of a 22 year AA FO-yeah that seems fair. Pay protection and job security yes. Seniority no.

 

[scoreboardII]

T45 and Co..
Can someone from SWA explain to me why relative seniority is such a bad deal for you?

Sure. It's only a bad deal for FO's. Now, lets agree that whatever happens, when they come out of the arbitrators office, we go to work, make money, have fun, not rip the place apart, but anyway, here is why:

The principle is one rooted in biology and living entities, you can only grow so large in your environment and as an entity reaches maturity, growth slows, so in our case, your upgrade progression slows exponentially. Reference why isn't AA or United so much bigger as time goes on? External environmental restrictions, they are as big as they can be in their environment.

As SWA or any airline grows internally/organically, everyone inside the sphere grows at a known rate. You upgrade at a known rate. Upgrade at SWA pure and simple means dollars, like anywhere else.

When growth occurs inorganically, such as a merger, even if you are placed into a position of relative equality to where you were before, your growth potential is slowed exponentially.

Example, your company merges and it doubles in size and now is 50% of the domestic market. Those other airlines are not going to sit and ponder their navel, they will react, lowering their costs, forcing you to tighten your belt further, leveling the field, seeking equalibrium, and slowing your future growth. Your company just got 100% bigger, who inside that company doubled thier seniority? No one.

So, say you were at 30% pre merger with 1000 pilots above you to upgrade, then after merger you are at 30% but have 2000 pilots to move to upgrade. Well, your company just grew 100%, but "your" growth inside that entity just doubled or more. Will the company continue to grow at 10% pre mereger? Not unles it kills the competition, which they won't allow as they are reacting to you for resources: passengers.

Instead of needing to through 1000 pilots at a 5% growth rate, you now need to go through 2000 pilots at 1-3% growth rate. upgrade time slides exponentially right.

This is why a relative deal is unfavorable for 100% of SWA FO's.

 

[75M]

Not unles it kills the competition, which they won't allow as they are reacting to you for resources: passengers.

With the combined route map and cost structure, we're gonna kill the competition.

 

[Full of LUV]

SWAPA needs to see the opportunity....

Sure. It's only a bad deal for FO's. Now, lets agree that whatever happens, when they come out of the arbitrators office, we go to work, make money, have fun, not rip the place apart, but anyway, here is why:

The principle is one rooted in biology and living entities, you can only grow so large in your environment and as an entity reaches maturity, growth slows, so in our case, your upgrade progression slows exponentially. Reference why isn't AA or United so much bigger as time goes on? External environmental restrictions, they are as big as they can be in their environment.

As SWA or any airline grows internally/organically, everyone inside the sphere grows at a known rate. You upgrade at a known rate. Upgrade at SWA pure and simple means dollars, like anywhere else.

When growth occurs inorganically, such as a merger, even if you are placed into a position of relative equality to where you were before, your growth potential is slowed exponentially.

Example, your company merges and it doubles in size and now is 50% of the domestic market. Those other airlines are not going to sit and ponder their navel, they will react, lowering their costs, forcing you to tighten your belt further, leveling the field, seeking equalibrium, and slowing your future growth. Your company just got 100% bigger, who inside that company doubled thier seniority? No one.

So, say you were at 30% pre merger with 1000 pilots above you to upgrade, then after merger you are at 30% but have 2000 pilots to move to upgrade. Well, your company just grew 100%, but "your" growth inside that entity just doubled or more. Will the company continue to grow at 10% pre mereger? Not unles it kills the competition, which they won't allow as they are reacting to you for resources: passengers.

Instead of needing to through 1000 pilots at a 5% growth rate, you now need to go through 2000 pilots at 1-3% growth rate. upgrade time slides exponentially right.

This is why a relative deal is unfavorable for 100% of SWA FO's.

Why doesn't SWAPA see this as an opportunity for all to get a payraise? In the DAL/NWA merger the FNWA guys got huge step ups in rates and seats, but even the FDAL guys received improved rates in rewards for gettin it done. Why doesn't SWAPA want a piece of the action? There is going ot be a lot of money flowing to get this merger completed for the managers, SWAPA should see that as thier immediate windfall. You just got some leverage to open up the PWA for negotiation, otherwise it may be years before you get to ask for more.....
LUV

 

[shagadelic]

If AA bought SWA, I would also feel SWA wasn't entitled to relative seniority since it would be lopsided a 7 years capt at SWA going in front of a 22 year AA FO-yeah that seems fair. Pay protection and job security yes. Seniority no.

So you would make me an FO at the bottom of your list, but pay protect me at 275 g's a year? Hmm, you sure about that? BTW, we don't have 7 year captains anymore...but whatever. Good luck with that line of reasoning.

 

[Full of LUV]

With the combined route map and cost structure, we're gonna kill the competition.

That may be, but look at LCC's cost structure.... it takes a bit more than that to "kill the competition". Best of luck.

 

[kc81900]

T45 and Co..
Can someone from SWA explain to me why relative seniority is such a bad deal for you?
i mean.. do you really think that airtran is going to come in and get better then relative seniority and you are going to get worse? That means worst case you will be right where you are today, only with future growth.
I understand the upgrade times might be delayed.. but which side will now face a longer delay?
This is a lot different then buying (F9) a company in bankruptcy and shrinking and trying to preserve jobs. -I for one prefer the DAL/NWA model over the LCC/AW one.

Lets take a look at 4 pilots on each list
#1 pilots, at 25%, 50% and 75% levels

#1 seniority
SWA DOH Sept. 1974 pay rate $206
A.T DOH Sept 1993 pay rate $153 net gain 35% raise and 19yrs seniority

25% level
SWA DOH Mar 1996 pay rate $206
A.T DOH Mar 2001 pay rate $144 net gain 43% raise and 5 years seniority

50% level
SWA DOH Mar 2001 pay rate $199
A.T DOH Sept 2004 pay rate $74 net gain 69% raise and 3.5 years

75% level
SWA DOH Nov 2005 pay rate $124
A.T DOH Aug 2006 pay rate $66 net gain 88% raise and 1.3 years

payrates taken from airlinepilotcentral.com

Please will some one who believes in relative seniority explain to me #1 how is that fair and #2 how that wouldn't be a windfall.

Someone mentioned career expectations well we all have career expectations but those are not guaranteed. When I was hired upgrade was 5 years...things change ie. retirement age, recession etc.... why does airtran pilots career expectations trump Southwest pilots expectations?

 

[kc81900]

Should us Airtran folks be able to keep our respective seats? We are bringing our aircraft to the party you know. It's not like we are showing up with a 6 pack of Schlitz. If I have to downgrade I will lose money, not have a windfall. The fact that your payrates are higher doesn't cost the any pilot anything. Seniority and seat position are the only cost to us line pilots.

To be accurate all we pilots bring is our contracts neither pilot group/union owns one airplane, has their name on one operating certificate nor leases gates at any city. We as the pilots own nothing but our contracts so negotiate with what is your to negotiate with. All else is owned by your management.

As to your last sentence "Seniority and seat position are the only cost to us line pilots" then why did to vote to strike? you already have your seniority and seat position!

 

[Old Crow]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

 

[goahead]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

So true

 

[Full of LUV]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

Exactly... anyone thinks they are going to present an "ah-ha" moment to the other side is just kidding themselves.