Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[Cardinal]

Have fun Airtran guys. As we at Frontier learned last summer, Luv is more of a marketing slogan than an actual worldview. Good luck, you'll need it.

 

[FR8dognit]

I believe we would be growing too if we weren't "right sizing" to BUY you

 

[bladeusa]

Every one makes a choice to stay or leave at any company they are hired at.
There are no guarantees..
What about people who left swa for united and got furloughed..

But anyway..that would be a bummer to have to staple yourself to yourself..

But say for the handful of people.. (.01% of the new pilot group who left airtran for swa)
They are only ones who think thats unfair? was T45 at airtran?

Hypothetically if you let them have the higher of whichever seniority they could hold..- and then that guy shoots up the list.. less than 1%.. but who in their orig new-hire class would that then anger more.. the airtran guy.. or the swa guy.

and to have their old spot back.. Would they then have to pay back the difference in pay for the years they spent at swa over airtran? .. sarcasm.

 

[FR8dognit]

It's going to be a long process that won't be decided on FI. Good luck and congrats.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well as it went with DAL/NWA the PWA was signed with a TFA agreement that dealt with the SLI. So the contract which gave bigger raises to some than other was a done deal then came a SLI which was arbitrated as category status for the most part.
Never presuppose an outcome because it all depends on how it is done. The arbitrators will look at both arguments and the fact is that if pay rates for the join group are ratified first those are the base line, not the per-merger pay. It will come down to career expectations and since you have the same top end jet (73N) it could just be a category status ratio.

** The corporation will want an approved CBA/PWA prior to an SLI so that whatever the SLI is it will be binding like DAL's and not like LCC's

 

[ATLplt]

T45 and Co..
Can someone from SWA explain to me why relative seniority is such a bad deal for you?

From a distant I can see why. Relative seniority regarding SWA pilots (especially the F/O's there) is a hot issue because not one SWA pilot left for AT while many left AT (some Captains even) for SWA.

WRONG! There's a former SWA guy at our training center right now going through initial. I love how everyone's an expert.

Remember people, AirTran FO's were on the cusp of upgrading with a new contract coming down the pike. We have deliveries slotted for growth, not replacements. SWA was scheduled stagnation for some time to come. You have to factor all of this in as well. Stop using the windfall excuse for everything.

You all can argue this till you're canyon blue in the face, but it's ultimately up to a higher power than the line swine. We should be looking into ways to make this work instead of slinging mud at each other. (and I thought SWA and AAI guys got along all this time)

 

[T45Flyer]

Getting bought and having to work under your CBA doesn't count as a windfall at the expensive of another pilot group. Its simply luck wether the rates are higher or lower. Seniority is whole different animal.
Good luck to us all.

Blade,
You seem like a reasonable person. Lets throw around some ideas.

1. Relative seniority would be another windfall for Airtran pilots due to the fact you have 717/737 Captains that have barely been flying for you 6 years. Our junior 737 Captain is somewhere around 9.5 years. With relative seniority, your 6 year guys would be ahead of our 9.25 year FO's.

2. If seniority is a whole different animal, I propose this.
Airtran pilots maintain "relative seniority". Captains stay Captains, FO's stay FO's. BUT, We will move you guys to a "B" salary scale. You will have your seniority and quality of life, but at your current Airtran pay rates. Those lower rates should bring our costs down and we may start growing again some day.

I think this is reasonable. Its not about the money, right?

 

[T45Flyer]

Your windfall, if you need a windfall, is that we have orders for 50 aircraft for continued growth. Your orders are for replacements. So, many of you will be upgrading into airframes that were going to go to AirTran pilots. We are hiring right now, and were on track to hire up to 200 through 2011. we're in a growth mode, which benefits you, too.

Why do you need a windfall, anyway? What exactly are you giving up? With relative seniority and new airframes arriving, you're in a better position with us on board than you were before.

Ty,
Do not kid yourself. There will be no growth once the two companies are combined. All deliveries will be used to replace our -300/-500 fleet. This is just a sales tactic of management.

With relative seniority and new airframes, we will NOT be in a better position than before. We will be in much worse. That's why we are up in arms.

 

[General Lee]

It really shocks me that Airtran pilots believe that they will get up to a $70,000 a year pay raise and keep their relative seniority and not give up anything to the Southwest pilot group. Really?

Here is a thought. The Southwest pilot group sits on negotiations for the next, lets say, 7-8 years. We already are making nice money, plus a possible variable raise and a negotiated fixed raise coming in the next few years. We are doing fine, and Airtran pilots can give up over 500+K of lost income. That extra cash would be nice, but I'm sure the QOL is really what you want. You can be the North pilots, we will take South(west).

Now, maybe, you could be reasonable, and take the huge financial windfall and give up some seniority to get it. I doubt it. Just a thought.

I am sure glad that 4 out of 5 of our Negotiating Committee are First Officers.

My bet is a Arbitrator. But I wouldn't be fooled by your union into thinking this windfall will be easy, or fun. Might want to hold off on the high fives for a little while.

Have a wonderful day.

RESPECTFULLY, that's not how it worked with the DAL/NWA merger. The NWA guys were brought up to DAL wages, got the better DL work rules, and kept their pension. The SLI was something totally different, and that was figured out by 3 arbitrators. Most of the FDAL pilots got a small pay increase, but then got bumped out of current DL bases when bid time came around. Unfortunately for SWA FOs, they will be left on the short end this time. They will probably lose upgrade potential for a few years, not get a large pay raise(compared to the HUGE raise the Airtran guys WILL get), and might not get a chance to move to more senior bases if AT guys do it first thanks to the upcoming SLI. RESPECTFULLY, it sounds like you are whining, and that probably won't help much.


Regardless, ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC PEOPLE, and I bet the merger will be A LOT OF FUN for everyone, especially the AT FOs who will almost double their wages overnight. Have a fantastic day, and try to do something nice for someone today, like feeding bread to some ducks on a lake. See ya!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[T45Flyer]

RESPECTFULLY, that's not how it worked with the DAL/NWA merger. The NWA guys were brought up to DAL wages, got the better DL work rules, and kept their pension. The SLI was something totally different, and that was figured out by 3 arbitrators. Most of the FDAL pilots got a small pay increase, but then got bumped out of current DL bases when bid time came around. Unfortunately for SWA FOs, they will be left on the short end this time. They will probably lose upgrade potential for a few years, not get a large pay raise(compared to the HUGE raise the Airtran guys WILL get), and might not get a chance to move to more senior bases if AT guys do it first thanks to the upcoming SLI. RESPECTFULLY, it sounds like you are whining, and that probably won't help much.


Regardless, ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC PEOPLE, and I bet the merger will be A LOT OF FUN for everyone, especially the AT FOs who will almost double their wages overnight. Have a fantastic day, and try to do something nice for someone today, like feeding bread to some ducks on a lake. See ya!



Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

The NWA/DAL merger was never compared in my statement. I do know that there is more than one way to skin a cat. If one side of the negotiating table is unwilling to negotiate in good faith, then the other side has to do a little "self help".

I think we do have quite a big carrot to dangle in from of their face. Airtran pilots could be flying Southwest painted planes for a long time while they collect Airtran wages.

I know everyone likes to think the Southwest guys are going to roll over and take what we get. I disagree.

I do not dislike Airtran guys. This is business. We can shake hands and grab a cold one when this is over. My guess, July 2017. Any other guesses?

 

[ejm179]

2. If seniority is a whole different animal, I propose this.
Airtran pilots maintain "relative seniority". Captains stay Captains, FO's stay FO's. BUT, We will move you guys to a "B" salary scale. You will have your seniority and quality of life, but at your current Airtran pay rates. Those lower rates should bring our costs down and we may start growing again some day.

I think this is reasonable. Its not about the money, right?

I don't work for either airline, but how much growth would you expect on you're 'A' side of the airline?

 

[FDJ2]

Blade,
You seem like a reasonable person. Lets throw around some ideas.

1. Relative seniority would be another windfall for Airtran pilots due to the fact you have 717/737 Captains that have barely been flying for you 6 years. Our junior 737 Captain is somewhere around 9.5 years. With relative seniority, your 6 year guys would be ahead of our 9.25 year FO's.

So you believe a 737 first officer should be senior to a 737 captain.........got it.

2. If seniority is a whole different animal, I propose this.
Airtran pilots maintain "relative seniority". Captains stay Captains, FO's stay FO's. BUT, We will move you guys to a "B" salary scale. You will have your seniority and quality of life, but at your current Airtran pay rates. Those lower rates should bring our costs down and we may start growing again some day.

I think this is reasonable. Its not about the money, right?

Won't work, not only will it damage your career in the long term by cratering any hope of unity, which you will ultimately need, but it will hurt your career in the short term also, by creating inefficiencies and divisions where none need to exist.

The best solution is to act like adults, highly unlikely for some on this forum, and treat each other as fellow professionals.

Work together to secure some benefits for every pilot on the list through a JCBA, leverage your ability to create a successful merger to get some equity in the merger for all pilots and negotiate an SLI in good faith. Barring a negotiated SLI, make your best arguments to an arbitrator and live with the results.

Your respective history may be different, but you'll share a common future, get use to it and make the best of it.

 

[IAHERJ]

Blade,
You seem like a reasonable person. Lets throw around some ideas.

1. Relative seniority would be another windfall for Airtran pilots due to the fact you have 717/737 Captains that have barely been flying for you 6 years. Our junior 737 Captain is somewhere around 9.5 years. With relative seniority, your 6 year guys would be ahead of our 9.25 year FO's.

2. If seniority is a whole different animal, I propose this.
Airtran pilots maintain "relative seniority". Captains stay Captains, FO's stay FO's. BUT, We will move you guys to a "B" salary scale. You will have your seniority and quality of life, but at your current Airtran pay rates. Those lower rates should bring our costs down and we may start growing again some day.

I think this is reasonable. Its not about the money, right?

You obviously have a few issues.....Sorry your little party got interrupted because your mom invited some other kids over who you don't like. This is the airline business, get over it. SWA was only special to SWA people. To even consider putting the AirTran guys on a "B" scale because in your eyes, they are getting a windfall, says more about your character than anything else you have written. I know airlines have cultures, and SWA had one of the better ones because they were in a way shielded from the rest of the industry for so long due to their route structure and avoidance of major airports; however you need to come to the realization that this is a business and we are all just players in it. This is not a social club. You and others at SWA who take this hard line approach will be the ones that send this merger down the U.S. Airways path when it has the potential to do the opposite.

In other words: Get Over Yourself....

 

[GuppyWN]

I'm going to take a deep breath and tell you that I am NOT trying to piss you off when I say -

You aint getting straight up relative seniority if "fair" is the goal.

Our senior pilot was hired in 1977. Yours 1993. Our Captains make over $50/hr MORE than yours, our FO's? Over $50/hr more.

You guys don't bring growth. You ARE our growth. If you guys think we are going to just start hiring and adding city pairs like mad after this you are delusional. We will be 7500 pilots and almost 700 airplanes strong. There just won't be a hell of a lot that we can do beyond that with any significant frequency that will really put a dent in things.

Convince me how relative is fair?

Gup

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,
Do not kid yourself. There will be no growth once the two companies are combined. All deliveries will be used to replace our -300/-500 fleet. This is just a sales tactic of management.

I have no way of knowing whether that is correct or not, only what I read; maybe that is true, I sure hope not.

I do know that at FL, we are taking a few deliveries here shortly (717) and are currently hiring, going into the slow season . . . and will keep hiring 20+ a month for the foreseeable future, the last number I heard was 160 pilots.