Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[scoreboardII]

T45 and Co..
Can someone from SWA explain to me why relative seniority is such a bad deal for you?

Sure. It's only a bad deal for FO's. Now, lets agree that whatever happens, when they come out of the arbitrators office, we go to work, make money, have fun, not rip the place apart, but anyway, here is why:

The principle is one rooted in biology and living entities, you can only grow so large in your environment and as an entity reaches maturity, growth slows, so in our case, your upgrade progression slows exponentially. Reference why isn't AA or United so much bigger as time goes on? External environmental restrictions, they are as big as they can be in their environment.

As SWA or any airline grows internally/organically, everyone inside the sphere grows at a known rate. You upgrade at a known rate. Upgrade at SWA pure and simple means dollars, like anywhere else.

When growth occurs inorganically, such as a merger, even if you are placed into a position of relative equality to where you were before, your growth potential is slowed exponentially.

Example, your company merges and it doubles in size and now is 50% of the domestic market. Those other airlines are not going to sit and ponder their navel, they will react, lowering their costs, forcing you to tighten your belt further, leveling the field, seeking equalibrium, and slowing your future growth. Your company just got 100% bigger, who inside that company doubled thier seniority? No one.

So, say you were at 30% pre merger with 1000 pilots above you to upgrade, then after merger you are at 30% but have 2000 pilots to move to upgrade. Well, your company just grew 100%, but "your" growth inside that entity just doubled or more. Will the company continue to grow at 10% pre mereger? Not unles it kills the competition, which they won't allow as they are reacting to you for resources: passengers.

Instead of needing to through 1000 pilots at a 5% growth rate, you now need to go through 2000 pilots at 1-3% growth rate. upgrade time slides exponentially right.

This is why a relative deal is unfavorable for 100% of SWA FO's.

 

[75M]

Not unles it kills the competition, which they won't allow as they are reacting to you for resources: passengers.

With the combined route map and cost structure, we're gonna kill the competition.

 

[Full of LUV]

SWAPA needs to see the opportunity....

Sure. It's only a bad deal for FO's. Now, lets agree that whatever happens, when they come out of the arbitrators office, we go to work, make money, have fun, not rip the place apart, but anyway, here is why:

The principle is one rooted in biology and living entities, you can only grow so large in your environment and as an entity reaches maturity, growth slows, so in our case, your upgrade progression slows exponentially. Reference why isn't AA or United so much bigger as time goes on? External environmental restrictions, they are as big as they can be in their environment.

As SWA or any airline grows internally/organically, everyone inside the sphere grows at a known rate. You upgrade at a known rate. Upgrade at SWA pure and simple means dollars, like anywhere else.

When growth occurs inorganically, such as a merger, even if you are placed into a position of relative equality to where you were before, your growth potential is slowed exponentially.

Example, your company merges and it doubles in size and now is 50% of the domestic market. Those other airlines are not going to sit and ponder their navel, they will react, lowering their costs, forcing you to tighten your belt further, leveling the field, seeking equalibrium, and slowing your future growth. Your company just got 100% bigger, who inside that company doubled thier seniority? No one.

So, say you were at 30% pre merger with 1000 pilots above you to upgrade, then after merger you are at 30% but have 2000 pilots to move to upgrade. Well, your company just grew 100%, but "your" growth inside that entity just doubled or more. Will the company continue to grow at 10% pre mereger? Not unles it kills the competition, which they won't allow as they are reacting to you for resources: passengers.

Instead of needing to through 1000 pilots at a 5% growth rate, you now need to go through 2000 pilots at 1-3% growth rate. upgrade time slides exponentially right.

This is why a relative deal is unfavorable for 100% of SWA FO's.

Why doesn't SWAPA see this as an opportunity for all to get a payraise? In the DAL/NWA merger the FNWA guys got huge step ups in rates and seats, but even the FDAL guys received improved rates in rewards for gettin it done. Why doesn't SWAPA want a piece of the action? There is going ot be a lot of money flowing to get this merger completed for the managers, SWAPA should see that as thier immediate windfall. You just got some leverage to open up the PWA for negotiation, otherwise it may be years before you get to ask for more.....
LUV

 

[shagadelic]

If AA bought SWA, I would also feel SWA wasn't entitled to relative seniority since it would be lopsided a 7 years capt at SWA going in front of a 22 year AA FO-yeah that seems fair. Pay protection and job security yes. Seniority no.

So you would make me an FO at the bottom of your list, but pay protect me at 275 g's a year? Hmm, you sure about that? BTW, we don't have 7 year captains anymore...but whatever. Good luck with that line of reasoning.

 

[Full of LUV]

With the combined route map and cost structure, we're gonna kill the competition.

That may be, but look at LCC's cost structure.... it takes a bit more than that to "kill the competition". Best of luck.

 

[kc81900]

T45 and Co..
Can someone from SWA explain to me why relative seniority is such a bad deal for you?
i mean.. do you really think that airtran is going to come in and get better then relative seniority and you are going to get worse? That means worst case you will be right where you are today, only with future growth.
I understand the upgrade times might be delayed.. but which side will now face a longer delay?
This is a lot different then buying (F9) a company in bankruptcy and shrinking and trying to preserve jobs. -I for one prefer the DAL/NWA model over the LCC/AW one.

Lets take a look at 4 pilots on each list
#1 pilots, at 25%, 50% and 75% levels

#1 seniority
SWA DOH Sept. 1974 pay rate $206
A.T DOH Sept 1993 pay rate $153 net gain 35% raise and 19yrs seniority

25% level
SWA DOH Mar 1996 pay rate $206
A.T DOH Mar 2001 pay rate $144 net gain 43% raise and 5 years seniority

50% level
SWA DOH Mar 2001 pay rate $199
A.T DOH Sept 2004 pay rate $74 net gain 69% raise and 3.5 years

75% level
SWA DOH Nov 2005 pay rate $124
A.T DOH Aug 2006 pay rate $66 net gain 88% raise and 1.3 years

payrates taken from airlinepilotcentral.com

Please will some one who believes in relative seniority explain to me #1 how is that fair and #2 how that wouldn't be a windfall.

Someone mentioned career expectations well we all have career expectations but those are not guaranteed. When I was hired upgrade was 5 years...things change ie. retirement age, recession etc.... why does airtran pilots career expectations trump Southwest pilots expectations?

 

[kc81900]

Should us Airtran folks be able to keep our respective seats? We are bringing our aircraft to the party you know. It's not like we are showing up with a 6 pack of Schlitz. If I have to downgrade I will lose money, not have a windfall. The fact that your payrates are higher doesn't cost the any pilot anything. Seniority and seat position are the only cost to us line pilots.

To be accurate all we pilots bring is our contracts neither pilot group/union owns one airplane, has their name on one operating certificate nor leases gates at any city. We as the pilots own nothing but our contracts so negotiate with what is your to negotiate with. All else is owned by your management.

As to your last sentence "Seniority and seat position are the only cost to us line pilots" then why did to vote to strike? you already have your seniority and seat position!

 

[Old Crow]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

 

[goahead]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

So true

 

[Full of LUV]

Greed is human nature. Therefore, arbitration was invented.

Exactly... anyone thinks they are going to present an "ah-ha" moment to the other side is just kidding themselves.