"Airline types need not apply"

[AA717driver]

I'm willing to bet that leaving a department for more money does not give them a wakeup call. The management just makes excuses when questioned by the owner.

"He just came here for the rating, Sir. No way to forsee that kind of treachery."

Re: Airline pilots and safety. I will repeat what I've said on this topic before--At the department I was in, there were some pilots who were as good as any I knew at the airlines. There were also problem children who I definitely wouldn't want flying my kids around. At the airlines, there were 20 year veterens who couldn't find their ass with both hands.

There are princes and d-bags galore in both ends of the business.

Generalizing generally fails.

TC

 

[JettBoii]

I have been trying to get a certain corporate job for three years; applied three times with a walk in. Nothing. They hire a regional guy who was a friend of the DO/CP. They paid for his type and he bailed at 5 months. So they are angry now and want a 1000 hour guy who will sign a 2 year training contract for 30K a year. I applied again and they said I was overqualified. Very frustrating. I couldnt get a job flying a Baron with 1200 hours but I landed a job flying a RJ. Oh well.

 

[pilothouston123]

I run a flight department and I would hesitate to hire a life long airline guy. my experience has shown that nost of the guy from the airlines don't understand the fast that flying is only about 20% of what we do. When I asked a retired airline guy to check the experation dates on the juices his response was "doing that is below my paygrade".

I do know one guy that is humble and willing but he was the exception to the rule. I also know there are guys that have been in the corporate world along time not willing to do the things that I do to offer personal service to my boss. My boss has asked me to pick up his dogs on the airport so he could attend a funeral. I am grateful to have a job I feel secure with and would do most anything my boss asks.

Simply put we are flying a hotel with wings and sometimes we have to do things that airline pilots would never have to do. On the other hand, we don't go to Cleveland five times a week. I get to choose my hotel and shoot as many deer as I can on my bosses ranch. I surely don't fit the mold of an airline pilot nor do I expect that some guys don't fit the mold of corporate pilots.

 

[ackattacker]

I really do agree with most of what has been said here, hope what I posted wasn't taken as a dig at corporate flying. A lot of really good flight departments and pilots out there.

I still think though anybody who puts that right in their advertisement "no airline" is suspect. Could be they got burned in the past but rather than look at the whole picture including their own operation they just put the blame on some outside evil influence and stigmatize the whole group.

 

[AA717driver]

Corporate guys who only work a job a couple months then leave typically DON'T get a free pass - unless their leaving was involuntary, if ya know what I mean.

There are entire other threads dedicated to folks who "grab a rating and run", leaving departments operationally & financially in the lurch, along with the pilot(s) who recommended that person (and sometimes, the manager who hired them) in the crosshairs of whoever the flight department reports to.

Boiler--But the "individual" who has a corporate background who skips can remain somewhat anonymous while an airline guy who skips tars the entire group.

TC

 

[con-pilot]

Ok. AA73, here's the quick and dirty differences.

If I'm a CA at AA, and I don't want to say anything on the PA or stand at the door and say goodbye to the freight as it exits the airplane, I don't have to.

In corporate, you HAVE to be, first and foremost, a concierge, travel agent, F/A and ramper (hauling trash and dumping lavs--everything!) depending on the needs at the moment. You have to be motivated, self-starting and proactive. You wait for stuff to happen or for the ramp guys in the FBO to do something and you WILL end up looking like a lazy idiot when Mr. Big shows up 15 min. early. The flying is, to the pax, a non-event UNLESS you make it an event. THEN it's a big deal.

At AA, you get 13-17 days off. Free. Clear. If CCS calls, you don't answer. You want to run over to Paris on your 8 day spread between months? Have at it.

At many corporate jobs you get significantly fewer days off. You may not fly much but you can't leave town--just in case. Many operations don't have sick days. (Yeah, I know you're not supposed to fly sick. We all know better...)

These are the basic differences but the corporate job is so much more nuanced that the airlines. It's certainly not for everyone.

Personally, I'm bored to death right now. Flying to "the four corners" with stops through the hubs gets monotonous. Not complaining--I'm happy to have a job but I certainly don't get all tingly 'strapping on the jet' these days.

Corporate is challenging--CONSTANTLY. You must guard against F-ups ALL THE TIME. It's stressful but rewarding--when you pull off a big play and avoid a disaster (Mr. Big never knowing how close he came to seeing chaos...) it's a great feeling. Until the next disaster aversion exercise.

No job is perfect. If you want out of the airlines bad enough, you can pull it off like njcapt did. It will take a lot of work and you will be suspect for a long time but you can do it.

I think a lot of the bad blood comes from airline people who think they want a corporate job but once they get into the job, they just don't like it. Never mind that that individual ran back to the airlines and never set foot in a bizjet again--it's one more story about an airline guy who bailed.

TC

ETA: I will say that while airline guys who bail get a bad rap there are a bazillion examples of corporate guys coming and going but "they just didn't fit in". If you're a corporate guy and you leave a job after a few months, you get a pass. If you're airline, you get slammed. That's just the way it works.

Excellent post AA. As it has been stated many times for many years, all an airline pilot needs to worry about is flying the aircraft, with most corporate pilots, flying the aircraft is the least of their concerns. A corporate crew can fly across the ocean, transiting multiple lines of thunderstorms, fly an approach to minimums to a strange foreign airport and make a very smooth landing, but if the transportation for the boss is late or the catering was not up to the expectations of the passengers, you're basically screwed.

The fact that all I had to do was fly he aircraft when I was with the US Marshal Service, was about the only redeeming factor of that job.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

refuse to shoot a GPS/NDB/VOR approach in Night IMC to minimums at an uncontrolled 4300ft strip.

Nice try. I been doing those for the last 15+ years at my major US airline (GPS Recently). While the strips were more than 4300' long, scaling the length up for the aircraft size including a 440,000 widebody gives the same pucker factor as a bizjet flying into a short strip.

Many were also done non-radar and from the FIR boundary inbound, not "cancel IFR" after landing. The towers were technically controlled, but often by a guys with the same english skills as a leaf blower operator in the USA. Probably paid the same too.

I think we can throw stones at each group all day long. I have to file an ASAP a couple times of year after listening to the guys trying in vain to get an overflight clearance from Havana Center after dropping the preflight ball. It never fails to incapacitate me when the conversation finally ends up with the guy pleading "can't you please take a credit card number?' and the reply is "east or west, your choice to GCM around Cuba".

Generalizations are wrong. Smart hiring will exactly explain the duties involved at the interview. If it's weekend leading edge polishing or checking peanut expiration dates, there should be no questions or surprises on what the job entails.

That being said, it's been 20 years since flying 135/91, but back then there were plenty of people i came across who had some deep insecurity when it came to airline guys.

 

[semperfido]

Excellent post AA. As it has been stated many times for many years, all an airline pilot needs to worry about is flying the aircraft, with most corporate pilots, flying the aircraft is the least of their concerns. A corporate crew can fly across the ocean, transiting multiple lines of thunderstorms, fly an approach to minimums to a strange foreign airport and make a very smooth landing, but if the transportation for the boss is late or the catering was not up to the expectations of the passengers, you're basically screwed.

.

.....and that is why you can't take any of it too seriously.

 

[Freight Dog]

Departments that blatantly say 'no airline types' scream EGOMANIAC IN CHARGE! At least IMHO...

Sure, places will have turnover whether it's people leaving to go the airlines or return to the airlines or people going to other departments, but in the end, what are the department dynamics? Who hires pilots? What's the compensation package? What is the total package like? What is the department manager like as a leader? What is the chief pilot like to work for? All those things have a HUGE play when it comes to turnover - blaming airline pilots is a copout and a weak one at that.

If you are flying a large cabin bizjet for a reputable company, chances are you won't see that money for quite a while, if ever, at the airlines. Yet, you still may see furloughed airline pilots and even pure corporate pilots take significant paycuts to go/return to the airlines. You have to ask yourself why? The easiest thing is to point the finger and blame others - be it "airline types" or whatever. But is that really why?

 

[AA717driver]

.....and that is why you can't take any of it too seriously.

You're just too D@MN laid back, fido.

TC

 

[fisherpilot]

I get to choose my hotel and shoot as many deer as I can on my bosses ranch.

Are you hiring anytime soon?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Departments that blatantly say 'no airline types' scream EGOMANIAC IN CHARGE! At least IMHO...

Sure, places will have turnover whether it's people leaving to go the airlines or return to the airlines or people going to other departments, but in the end, what are the department dynamics? Who hires pilots? What's the compensation package? What is the total package like? What is the department manager like as a leader? What is the chief pilot like to work for? All those things have a HUGE play when it comes to turnover - blaming airline pilots is a copout and a weak one at that.

If you are flying a large cabin bizjet for a reputable company, chances are you won't see that money for quite a while, if ever, at the airlines. Yet, you still may see furloughed airline pilots and even pure corporate pilots take significant paycuts to go/return to the airlines. You have to ask yourself why? The easiest thing is to point the finger and blame others - be it "airline types" or whatever. But is that really why?

Lotta truth here...

The guy running the department really sets the tone and it can be great....or it can be terrible.

All these owners are rather high mx and thats just part of the gig...but working with/for good people makes all the difference in the world.

Nothing worse than a spineless department manager who wont watch your back, insists on office time, countless stupid meetings, micromangages expenses, etc etc...

Pilots are really pretty easy people. They are willing to work their asses off so long as you treat them well - and its not just money.

Most corp pilots really take pride in doing a good job but a crappy manager can make the entire atmosphere suck.

 

[Paradoxus]

I've been 91/135 exclusively for over a decade, having never set foot on an airline property. I'm presently in a well-paying pt. 91 flight department as PIC.

The anti-airline types that contaminate this business are, succinctly, hyper-envious, washed-up losers. They suffer from a constellation of failings: some know they couldn't make the cut for whatever reason, others began their careers with a vile contempt for people whom actually fly aircraft (and do nothing else) for a living.

Those among us whom fly the line, so to speak, and feel airline life isn't for them are exempt from this exposition. An honest observer such as myself is forced to wonder, however, why one would avoid the prospect of yearly pay increases, actual time off, professional maintenance, union representation, etc.

 

[AA717driver]

Pilots are really pretty easy people. They are willing to work their asses off so long as you treat them well - and its not just money.

Most corp pilots really take pride in doing a good job but a crappy manager can make the entire atmosphere suck.

As usual, you get the big picture.

TC

 

[Ty Webb]

It's all in the individual . . We hired a bunch of Delta guys that took early retirement in order to save their pensions. I probably flew with 2 dozen of them. They were almost all former 767ER Check Airmen.

I would say that nearly all of them would have been great corporate pilots. They just had great attitudes, were pleasant to work with, and did a great job. They never complained, even though they went from one of the top jobs at Delta to one of the bottom jobs at AirTran (flying FO for yours truly). Great bunch of guys.

BTW, a crappy flight dept manager can make things suck, but imagine that same guy now screwing things up for 2,000 Pilots . . . That's the airline equivalent. At least at the airlines, the ******************************bag doesn't have your home number.

 

[enigma]

Lotta truth here...

The guy running the department really sets the tone and it can be great....or it can be terrible.

All these owners are rather high mx and thats just part of the gig...but working with/for good people makes all the difference in the world.

Nothing worse than a spineless department manager who wont watch your back, insists on office time, countless stupid meetings, micromangages expenses, etc etc...

Pilots are really pretty easy people. They are willing to work their asses off so long as you treat them well - and its not just money.

Most corp pilots really take pride in doing a good job but a crappy manager can make the entire atmosphere suck.

Ditto

I've been out of Corporate for almost 13 years, so I don't feel qualified to speak to the current attitude toward "airline" pilots, but I will say this: two of the three corporate chief pilots I worked for were spineless. I had no problem checking to ensure that all of the snacks were fresh, but I had/have a huge problem closing my eyes while the chief pilot busts minimums because he doesn't have the spine to tell the boss "it ain't happening today Boss".

 

[Freight Dog]

Pilots are really pretty easy people. They are willing to work their asses off so long as you treat them well - and its not just money.

AMEN!!! But this seems like an impossible concept to grasp for so many...

 

[ksu_aviator]

I've been 91/135 exclusively for over a decade, having never set foot on an airline property. I'm presently in a well-paying pt. 91 flight department as PIC.

The anti-airline types that contaminate this business are, succinctly, hyper-envious, washed-up losers. They suffer from a constellation of failings: some know they couldn't make the cut for whatever reason, others began their careers with a vile contempt for people whom actually fly aircraft (and do nothing else) for a living.

Those among us whom fly the line, so to speak, and feel airline life isn't for them are exempt from this exposition. An honest observer such as myself is forced to wonder, however, why one would avoid the prospect of yearly pay increases, actual time off, professional maintenance, union representation, etc.

Honest observer? Honest observers don't lump everyone into one pile. Neither you nor the person that posted the ad in the OP seem to get it. Your job does not define you.

In all professions you have people that are control freaks, jerks, laid back, friendly and any other adjective you want to use. Whether they are pilots that fly for a major airline or "sanitation engineers", people will have a wide range of personalities.

You wonder why people don't want to go to the airlines? Having been there and left, I can tell you that I don't like being a number. I don't need the union "protection" because I don't do anything to work against my employer. I don't like airlines because I don't like to commute. I don't like airlines because you work a lot more than the typical flight department. I don't like airlines because I don't get to make decisions, I have to follow procedures and profiles that aren't always the best/safest practice.

But that's just me. If you like to just show up, fly the airplane and go home then maybe that's the life for you. I prefer to be involved, develop real relationships with my crew AND passengers/owners and tackle the challenges that come from flying to less than well traveled airports.

Like I said, to each his own.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Ditto

I've been out of Corporate for almost 13 years, so I don't feel qualified to speak to the current attitude toward "airline" pilots, but I will say this: two of the three corporate chief pilots I worked for were spineless. I had no problem checking to ensure that all of the snacks were fresh, but I had/have a huge problem closing my eyes while the chief pilot busts minimums because he doesn't have the spine to tell the boss "it ain't happening today Boss".

wow - busting published mins to get the boss in? no thanks.

Only person I bust mins for is myself. If my cars there (my ride home) mins are adjusted appropriately.



Reckless corporate cowboy with no Union Representation and no SOPS!

 

[say again]

Honest observer? Honest observers don't lump everyone into one pile. Neither you nor the person that posted the ad in the OP seem to get it. Your job does not define you.

In all professions you have people that are control freaks, jerks, laid back, friendly and any other adjective you want to use. Whether they are pilots that fly for a major airline or "sanitation engineers", people will have a wide range of personalities.

You wonder why people don't want to go to the airlines? Having been there and left, I can tell you that I don't like being a number. I don't need the union "protection" because I don't do anything to work against my employer. I don't like airlines because I don't like to commute. I don't like airlines because you work a lot more than the typical flight department. I don't like airlines because I don't get to make decisions, I have to follow procedures and profiles that aren't always the best/safest practice.

But that's just me. If you like to just show up, fly the airplane and go home then maybe that's the life for you. I prefer to be involved, develop real relationships with my crew AND passengers/owners and tackle the challenges that come from flying to less than well traveled airports.

Like I said, to each his own.

Well said! I did the airline thing, and have no desire to go back at this time.

 

[BoilerUP]

Reckless corporate cowboy with no Union Representation and no SOPS!

Complete ten flight risk matrix forms and say five "Hail ISBAO"s and you're good!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Complete ten flight risk matrix forms and say five "Hail ISBAO"s and you're good!

GOM Review with ISBAO guy...

"100ft"..."check"

"minimums, runway not in sight"...."roger, continuing"..

lol..

 

[Paradoxus]

Honest observer? Honest observers don't lump everyone into one pile.

Nonsense. I never said exceptions could not exist. Themes, however, do exist, and this one is common-enough.

Neither you nor the person that posted the ad in the OP seem to get it. Your job does not define you.

Oh no, I'm afraid I do get it. I get it all too well, as it takes someone of my particular disposition to call these plays as they are. It is axiomatic that one's job should not define them.

In the corporate world, however, the job defines more people than otherwise. I've been made to listen to enough corporate pilot bullsh*t to fill the Grand Canyon.

Example for your consideration:

Corporate drivers arrive at the bar. Banefully uninteresting/uninspired talk of avionics/engine mod kits/etc. prevails. Work-related cellphone rings fill the air.

Airline pilots arrive at the bar. Normalcy in conversation prevails. The job is left behind, better subject matter is tabled--life is lived.

This observation is by no means comprehensive, however it has been my experience enough that this is the case the majority of the time.

In all professions you have people that are control freaks, jerks, laid back, friendly and any other adjective you want to use. Whether they are pilots that fly for a major airline or "sanitation engineers", people will have a wide range of personalities.

Certainly. I challenge nothing here.

You wonder why people don't want to go to the airlines? Having been there and left, I can tell you that I don't like being a number.

I'm sorry to have to be the one to disestablish this fantastic illusion for you, but we're all numbers; be it employee or cost/benefit-analysis.

I don't need the union "protection" because I don't do anything to work against my employer.

Ah yes...only those who seek to sabotage an operation need protection. All management decisions are just, of course.

I don't like airlines because I don't like to commute.

Who does? Then again, we don't all live in BFE.

I don't like airlines because you work a lot more than the typical flight department.

Seems to me all of my airline friends work considerably less, as none of them are on the 30 on/0-off schedule I must endure.

I don't like airlines because I don't get to make decisions, I have to follow procedures and profiles that aren't always the best/safest practice.

For example? I find nothing but the most conservative procedures/philosophies dominate airline SOP's.

But that's just me. If you like to just show up, fly the airplane and go home then maybe that's the life for you.

Fair enough. That is, after all, why I and most everyone else got into this business. If I had the slightest inclination for any other brand of nonsense, I would have done something else.

I prefer to be involved, develop real relationships with my crew AND passengers/owners and tackle the challenges that come from flying to less than well traveled airports.

Every time I hear this line (very nearly verbatim, ad infinitum) and apply the requisite philosophical considerations I come away more mystified than before.

It is most often used as a weak justification for the superiority of this type of flying, when it should be relegated to the same classificatory bag as "...well, I love that Lears have cup-holders built into the cockpit side walls, so given that I could see myself as flying nothing else..."

Make no mistake, everyone enjoys it (at least until they have to deal with the attendant bullsh*t of small town airport accomodations). As we have addressed that this profession should not define the man, however, should not the appropriate concerns be somewhere in the realm of QOL, money, and time-off to do the wife/girlfriend thing? Given these essentials, pax/crew relationships, small airport inconveniences, etc. be damned, no?

Like I said, to each his own.

No question. This is FI, however, a forum of debate. :beer:

 

[say again]

Example for your consideration:

Corporate drivers arrive at the bar. Banefully uninteresting/uninspired talk of avionics/engine mod kits/etc. prevails. Work-related cellphone rings fill the air.

Airline pilots arrive at the bar. Normalcy in conversation prevails. The job is left behind, better subject matter is tabled--life is lived.

This observation is by no means comprehensive, however it has been my experience enough that this is the case the majority of the time.

I've experienced both sides, have heard both, and I'm gonna have to disagree with you completely!! Don't know who you work/worked for, but you must have not been around many pilots if this is your experience. BTW- not knocking, just disagreeing. :beer:

All this generalization on who has the better job, or who is the better pilot is BS!! It's all personal preference. If one doesn't like, well, it's your choice to go find a job you do enjoy. I happen to enjoy the corporate world for now, but that's not to say I will not go back to the airline world later on.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Example for your consideration:

Corporate drivers arrive at the bar. Banefully uninteresting/uninspired talk of avionics/engine mod kits/etc. prevails. Work-related cellphone rings fill the air.

Airline pilots arrive at the bar. Normalcy in conversation prevails. The job is left behind, better subject matter is tabled--life is lived.

OH???

I could also say the majority of airline guys do nothing at the bar but talk about lines, bids, and the never-ending contract union bull$hit. Is that fair?

They cant even cross the ocean and enjoy a meal with clogging up 123.45 with it at 3am.

Airline pilots leaving the job behind....LOL, now thats a good one.

Most corporate guys I fly with wont even stay at "crew" hotels as to avoid the airline crowd.

I can also attest that constant airplane/job no-life talk is not tolerated for very long at dinner/cocktail time with 99% of the corporate guys I know. Its certainly something most I know think about when hiring people! Anyone can fly a plane (even the mighty Boeing!) now does this person have a life?

The vast majority like to leave the job at the plane. I hope (and assume) thats also the case in the airline world.

Many of us enjoy layovers even if it costs us a few bucks. Ever see a few airline guys fight over a $12 bar tab after free cocktail hour ended and they forgot to run away?? or the commuter guys fighting over the granola bars (lunch) at the breakfast buffet??........its funnier $hit than a dozen 80yr old Long Island broads out to lunch in Palm Beach!!





Making generalizations is generally pretty ignorant, no?

 

[Paradoxus]

I've experienced both sides, have heard both, and I'm gonna have to disagree with you completely!! Don't know who you work/worked for, but you must have not been around many pilots if this is your experience. BTW- not knocking, just disagreeing. :beer:

Ok, ok. Fair enough. imp:

All this generalization on who has the better job, or who is the better pilot is BS!! It's all personal preference. If one doesn't like, well, it's your choice to go find a job you do enjoy. I happen to enjoy the corporate world for now, but that's not to say I will not go back to the airline world later on.

Well said. I find no fault with anything you've said, except that the thematic element tabled here is the moronic stereotyping of airline drivers by washed-up corporate types. As a corporate type myself, I always viewed the playground-esque practice disgusting beyond measure, and revolting asymmetric.

I just took it a step further, citing the prejudice as evidentiary of deeper problems.

 

[Paradoxus]

OH???
Making generalizations is generally pretty ignorant, no?

Indeed so, which, again, is the general theme here as we started this journey when someone complained about the imbecilic prejudice levied against former-airline applicants.

If you recall, however, I couched my observations with a warning that such were by no means, necessarily comprehensive. I'm simply calling the plays as I've seen them.

Here we sit as time drags on, and still nobody has tabled compelling justification for the asymmetric exclusion of former airline pilots in corporate aviation.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Indeed so, which, again, is the general theme here as we started this journey when someone complained about the imbecilic prejudice levied against former-airline applicants.

If you recall, however, I couched my observations with a warning that such were by no means, necessarily comprehensive. I'm simply calling the plays as I've seen them.

Here we sit as time drags on, and still nobody has tabled compelling justification for the asymmetric exclusion of former airline pilots in corporate aviation.

and absolutely no question about it - we would immediately kick your a$$ if you EVER talked like this at dinner.

 

[Paradoxus]

and absolutely no question about it - we would immediately kick your a$$ if you EVER talked like this at dinner.

It would definitely make a worthy footnote in The Battle History of the Civil Air Patrol.

You'd have to bring the force of your whole squadron to bear to even stand a chance, Colonel.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It would definitely make a worthy footnote in The Battle History of the Civil Air Patrol.

You'd have to bring the force of your whole squadron to bear to even stand a chance, Colonel.

My hair may be badly thinning and my teeth kinda gnarly, but we do lots of pushups in front of our Cessna 172 and we are ready to fight!