"Airline types need not apply"

[Paradoxus]

My hair may be badly thinning and my teeth kinda gnarly, but we do lots of pushups in front of our Cessna 172 and we are ready to fight!

Hahaha!

 

[AA717driver]

If there is any statement I have EVER made on this board, none is truer than what follows:

The layover scene today at the airlines (at least the one that flies shiny planes) bears no resemblance to that of 30 years ago. In fact, other than a literal handful of CA's, I do not go out with the crew. I've heard the stories. I know your kids are either doing great or they're F-ed up beyond belief and you don't know how to get them out of your basement.

I know you hate your wife (whatever number she may be) and you're just flying to age 65 because your first two wives or an airline owner stole your pension. Blah, blah, blah.

I know the union/contract situation as well as anyone so I don't really care to give you "Airline Contracts 101" at the bar.

If I find a corporate pilot on the road, I'll talk to them because it's something different. But, usually they turn and run when they find out I'm airline...

Thank heaven's for internet p0rn and take out. :laugh:

TC

 

[sleepy]

I flew at two airlines and I didn't have any trouble getting a corporate job. I have heard it said that airline pilots won't load bags or make coffee. In my experiences the laziest pilots we have never worked at an airline. The really lazy ones came from the military.

 

[jet2work]

Regarding getting a type and then bailing - How is that different, from, say, a new hire at DAL that bails after a couple months and then goes to SWA or Fedex? Isn't that the cost of doing business? Yes it may be expensive but are you really going to stay at some employer just because you feel bad about the employer eating the cost? What if you're miserable and don't feel you got the right job?

For one, a 737 type can be had for about $8000. A GV type will cost you about 10 times as much (retail FlightSafety not on a FS contract).

When you say "isn't that the cost of doing business?" I must agree that you are correct. And as such, a wise manager will do certain things to avoid such costs. To wit, like not hiring an airline guy with that kind of attitude.

We have a mix where I work, and I think the 121 guys are great guys, and very solid pilots. It has been my experience that they are almost always the first ones to raise the issue of pay (we are industry standard), and neglect the fact that while we are on trips, that we stay in much nicer accomodations, eat and drink whatever we like without worrying about per diem, take days off or change the schedule to accomodate family and personal needs, have education and retirement benefits, and bonuses, and the possibility to advance according to your capabilities instead of seniority.

Maybe the CP at that job is just trying to keep airline pilots from "being miserable for not getting the right job." Perhaps he or she understands that this particular position involves duties that the previous airline pilots he has encountered do not enjoy. I have seen for myself, many airline types who absolutely cannot cope without knowing what their schedule is going to be for the next 2 weeks (I guess it is PTSD from having to sit reserve).

My guess is that he has been burned in the past by some desperate pilot who was furloughed and made all kinds of promises, and understood clearly what the pay and work conditions were going to be like, but bitched incessantly about those things once hired. Then as soon as he has recalled, fled back into the arms of his unfaithful (yet strangely attractive) mistress. :laugh:

There is nothing inherently wrong with 121 guys. It's just that in this market, an employer does not need to take that risk, especially when they can find people typed and enthusiastic to work. It costs alot of money to recruit, train, and relocate an employee. That the airlines have not figured this out, explains their current predicament.

 

[G4G5]

My issue was the seniority number. It's a BS system. Some corporates still have it but it's going the way of the Dodo. Work hard move up, get better pay, yada yada, want to sit around and take up space, theirs the door.

I remember being on probation, just cut loose out of IOE for a large top 3 carrier and we are on a STAR into PHX. The Captain I am with was also newly upgraded to the left seat. He blows through one speed restriction (after several reminders), then he's about to blow through an altitude restriction. The guy was all over the place. When we got on the ground (I actually had to hand him a form to fill out for my probation report) and the topic switched to my asking " what up dude?" He proceeds to tell me that he has not flown an aircraft in years other then his upgrade time. Due to a long FO stagnation period, he has been riding the bunk as a long haul relief pilot, movie critic for years. Flew with another Florida based guy while on probation who told me, "I haven't had to use de-ice fluid in 10+ years". I had to ask myself, what have I gotten into?

At airlines pilots hide on the same routes for years and the least experienced people fly the hardest trips. That doesn't fly at a corporate flight department and most aviation directors know this.

The other issue is technology, my world was rocked when I go from flying an all glass G5 EFIS around the globe only to discover that the MD80 I was going to spend the rest of my life in, only had 2 VOR's and 1 ADF. Airlines don't spend a dime on the aircraft once it's delivered unless the FAA mandates it. Aviation directors are not about to spend big bucks to bring an airline guy up to speed on LPV or EVS or SAAAR, most airline guys feel that if the airline wants me to know it then it's their job to train me on it. It doesn't work that way in corporate.

Last week I got into a discussion about EFB's with an airline guy who was an absolute moron.The guy was a 3 digit seniority number 777 FO who in all reality flew to maybe 4 destinations for years. I am trying to explain an Ipad efb to him and he starts taking the Pius attitude that just because he's on the company EFB committee he doesn't need anyone else's input, he knows it all. It's unconshionable for an airline guy to phathom that their are corporate guys already flying with EFB's logging hundreds of hours every month flying to all four corners of the globe.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Nonsense. I never said exceptions could not exist. Themes, however, do exist, and this one is common-enough.



Oh no, I'm afraid I do get it. I get it all too well, as it takes someone of my particular disposition to call these plays as they are. It is axiomatic that one's job should not define them.

In the corporate world, however, the job defines more people than otherwise. I've been made to listen to enough corporate pilot bullsh*t to fill the Grand Canyon.

Example for your consideration:

Corporate drivers arrive at the bar. Banefully uninteresting/uninspired talk of avionics/engine mod kits/etc. prevails. Work-related cellphone rings fill the air.

Airline pilots arrive at the bar. Normalcy in conversation prevails. The job is left behind, better subject matter is tabled--life is lived.

This observation is by no means comprehensive, however it has been my experience enough that this is the case the majority of the time.

LOL...that's just funny. You start by saying you aren't lumping people together, proceed to lump people together and then declare that you didn't lump people together. That's just hillarious. You do realize that saying you aren't doing does not preclude you from acutally doing it?

Certainly. I challenge nothing here.



I'm sorry to have to be the one to disestablish this fantastic illusion for you, but we're all numbers; be it employee or cost/benefit-analysis.

Maybe to the government, but there are fligth departments where they actually refer to you by your name and not your employee number.

Ah yes...only those who seek to sabotage an operation need protection. All management decisions are just, of course.

Depends on your point of view, doesn't it. If you believe you are owed a job and that your employer must provide you with all you need/want, then maybe you can find a reason to be upset with a managers decision. But, if you are of the belief that you are a contractor and that it is your responsiblity to make your client happy so that they choose to continue to purchase your skills, then you'd see that it is your decisions and actions that dictate your pay and employement...with a few exceptions.

Who does? Then again, we don't all live in BFE.

You asked why I wouldn't want to work for an airline, that is my reason.

Seems to me all of my airline friends work considerably less, as none of them are on the 30 on/0-off schedule I must endure.

Right, cause you fly every day of every month. I was on call 24/7/365 as well, but I only flew a couple weekends a month. When I needed or wanted to go out of town, I'd just let them know and that was that.

For example? I find nothing but the most conservative procedures/philosophies dominate airline SOP's.

The regional I flew for wanted the checklist completed inside the FAF. I don't like that. I prefer to have the aircraft configured and both pilots on the gauges in that critical phase of flight. More over, if it wasn't on the checklist, you couldn't do it. They called it "being a cowboy." So, if you wanted to turn on the anti/deice you had to run a checklist. If you had an engine quit, you couldn't attempt a relight.

Fair enough. That is, after all, why I and most everyone else got into this business. If I had the slightest inclination for any other brand of nonsense, I would have done something else.



Every time I hear this line (very nearly verbatim, ad infinitum) and apply the requisite philosophical considerations I come away more mystified than before.

It is most often used as a weak justification for the superiority of this type of flying, when it should be relegated to the same classificatory bag as "...well, I love that Lears have cup-holders built into the cockpit side walls, so given that I could see myself as flying nothing else..."

Make no mistake, everyone enjoys it (at least until they have to deal with the attendant bullsh*t of small town airport accomodations). As we have addressed that this profession should not define the man, however, should not the appropriate concerns be somewhere in the realm of QOL, money, and time-off to do the wife/girlfriend thing? Given these essentials, pax/crew relationships, small airport inconveniences, etc. be damned, no?



No question. This is FI, however, a forum of debate. :beer:

I'm not making some "weak justification for the superiority" of corporate aviation. I'm just telling you why I prefer it. If you are so unhappy with your position, why don't you join the airlines then?

 

[AA717driver]

G4G5--I know the types you're talking about. I will say that some I've flown with are really interested in what I did during furlough. Some are threatened by it (a small number but they're out there). Most are curious about the flying and the lifestyle.

The union EFB guy doesn't surprise me at all. Many in that union believe they invented, not just unions, but EVERYTHING.

Take care!

TC

 

[G4G5]

G4G5--I know the types you're talking about. I will say that some I've flown with are really interested in what I did during furlough. Some are threatened by it (a small number but they're out there). Most are curious about the flying and the lifestyle.

The union EFB guy doesn't surprise me at all. Many in that union believe they invented, not just unions, but EVERYTHING.

Take care!

TC

I have to tell you TC, it's that we know it all attitude that has me really befuddled. I can deal with the equipment, the schedules, just about everything except that holey then thou we invented the wheel here attitude.


This guy on the company EFB committee actually told me that no one was currently putting Jepps directly onto the display tubes. He got really offended when I showed him a picture of a G450/550/Falcon7x/Global Fusion cockpit. His answer to the batt life issue on the Ipad was to have every airline guy carry around a 100 hour mill spec battery with their Ipad. When I refereed him to the FAA's advisory circular on EFB's he actually had the balls to tell me and I quote, that does not apply to us. I told him that the we are smarter then the FAA attitude hasn't worked in the past (in fact its what was getting people killed around here)

Thats just one small sampling, that union is so far removed from reality that it's not even funny.

 

[Redtailer]

All this generalization on who has the better job, or who is the better pilot is BS!! It's all personal preference. If one doesn't like, well, it's your choice to go find a job you do enjoy. I happen to enjoy the corporate world for now, but that's not to say I will not go back to the airline world later on.

That's about the most true statement I have seen on here in a while. There are corporate jobs that really suck that cause folks never want to ever fly corporate again. There are airline jobs that make people feel the same way, but both have great companies too. Not to mention everything depends on the person involved. What sucks for me may not suck for you and so on.

Getting back to the original thread though there has been no mention of the fracs. I can say from first hand experience that they blur the line between airlines and corporate. They run airline type schedules complete with bidding and seniority yet they fly corporate pax. They also do A LOT of flying to the same airports over and over. Raise your hand if you have been stuck on the east coast shuttle for days praying to get a trip out west! Their safety cultures are more closely related to airlines because of the corporate memory in place. Overall they are still a young group, but that changes with time.

Just tired of the "my job is better than your job" stone throwing. What matters is that your job is good to you and only one person knows the real answer to that.

What matters is the safety culture which transcends simple feelings of how much you like your job. If you see no problem with busting minimums in your job for any reason then you might want to reconsider the safety in your job. Almost all airline pilots I know do not tolerate it. The same can't be said in the corporate world. The mins seem like a suggestion to some outfits. The minimums are put in place for a reason. If you are being gung ho and saying "Hey, I know I can fly closer for another 100ft safely" you are an idiot. If the airlines with millions of $$$ on the line with real teams of experts working on flying to lower minimums said it's not safe then WTF makes you think that you can do it safely?

Back in my early 135 days the guy that was training me to fly 135 in a Seneca viewed as normal to fly in to IMC without talking to ATC or filing IFR. He just refused to do it for whatever reason. In the airlines he would be bounced out on his backside. In the corporate world he would become Chief Pilot.

Those are the types of safety differences I am talking about. So to say airline pilots are not wanted is really code speak for "Don't tell us what's safe we have been doing this for years. Airline pilots are such crybabies."

 

[Gulfstream 200]

How long ago were your 135 days?

Again, yet another pretty off-the-wall view of corporate aviation from the mighty Boeing cockpit.

No corporate operation I know (even the low end 135 outfits) tolerate busting minimums or flying VFR in clouds for chrissakes.

Rest assured - Airline pilots are not shunned in the corporate world because of their commitment to Safety.....

 

[Redtailer]

This guy on the company EFB committee actually told me that no one was currently putting Jepps directly onto the display tubes. He got really offended when I showed him a picture of a G450/550/Falcon7x/Global Fusion cockpit. His answer to the batt life issue on the Ipad was to have every airline guy carry around a 100 hour mill spec battery with their Ipad. When I refereed him to the FAA's advisory circular on EFB's he actually had the balls to tell me and I quote, that does not apply to us. I told him that the we are smarter then the FAA attitude hasn't worked in the past (in fact its what was getting people killed around here)

Thats just one small sampling, that union is so far removed from reality that it's not even funny.

That sounds like AA. Hope you are not judging airline guys by their example... Their union guys are so screwed up they believe they invented the airplane. Can't tell them any different. Who was it that was still setting their altimeters so they read zero on landing up until a few years ago?

Your message is just as condescending though. Most of the tech stuff you have pointed out is applicable to newer aircraft and is taught at flight safety. I think just as many airline pilots can get it as corporate pilots. It's not rocket science. That's like me saying that we shouldn't hire corporate pilots because they only know how to fly with the help of EFIS and A/T. They shouldn't be hired because they can't handle flying a DC-9 to Cat II minimums with only 2 Vors and 1 NDB. Not to mention they would have trouble with a raw data NDB approach.

 

[BoilerUP]

For somebody who professes to be tired of the "my job is better than your job" stone throwing, you're sure chucking your fair share, Redtailer...

 

[Redtailer]

How long ago were your 135 days?

Again, yet another pretty off-the-wall view of corporate aviation from the mighty Boeing cockpit.

No corporate operation I know (even the low end 135 outfits) tolerate busting minimums or flying VFR in clouds for chrissakes.

Rest assured - Airline pilots are not shunned in the corporate world because of their commitment to Safety.....

Are you kidding? Just look around the FI boards. Heck I think in this thread alone there were some folks talking about busting mins for the boss. You are living in lala land if you believe that's not going on in the corporate world. How many accident reports do you read about that have corporate jets launching VFR to pick up IFR in the air and finding themselves in the soup before picking up the IFR clrc? That was one guy I flew with personally that did it on purpose. Do you really think he is the only one? He learned it from somewhere. Aspen has a few marks on the hills from a Gulfstream or two from folks busting mins. Actually you could probably substitute any of the mountain airports for that.

I have heard more than a few comments about airline pilots commitment to safety on the GA ramp. Actually, the best one was "Airline guys are such wimps, they are constantly looking for smooth air and can't take a few bumps." I didn't have it in me to explain to him that the reason they are always looking for smooth air is not for their comfort, but for the safety of the flight attendents that are standing up in the back trying to serve hot coffee and such. After a few good bumps they WILL be calling up complaining.

Airline pilots are shunned for different reasons, but I go back to what I said earlier. There is no statistical proof that if a department hires a GA guy over an airline guy that the person will work out better. The airline guy just gets flagged when he doesn't work out and the story gets perpetuated throught the corporate community. If a GA guy is let go for the same reasons then little or nothing is said because he can't just be lumped in with a particular group.

If you have a flt department of at least 6 or 7 guys you cannot tell me at least 1 of them is not performing like the others. Now if the one is an airline guy then everyone throws up their hands and say "It's because he is too good for his job." If not then it usually goes "He is just lazy."

 

[Redtailer]

For somebody who professes to be tired of the "my job is better than your job" stone throwing, you're sure chucking your fair share, Redtailer...

Not stone throwing just being honest about what goes on. The airlines have their issues too. There are plenty of stones to be thrown at them too. I am just getting rid of all of the generalizations. Many of which are false.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Are you kidding? Just look around the FI boards. Heck I think in this thread alone there were some folks talking about busting mins for the boss. You are living in lala land if you believe that's not going on in the corporate world. How many accident reports do you read about that have corporate jets launching VFR to pick up IFR in the air and finding themselves in the soup before picking up the IFR clrc? That was one guy I flew with personally that did it on purpose. Do you really think he is the only one? He learned it from somewhere. Aspen has a few marks on the hills from a Gulfstream or two from folks busting mins. Actually you could probably substitute any of the mountain airports for that.

I have heard more than a few comments about airline pilots commitment to safety on the GA ramp. Actually, the best one was "Airline guys are such wimps, they are constantly looking for smooth air and can't take a few bumps." I didn't have it in me to explain to him that the reason they are always looking for smooth air is not for their comfort, but for the safety of the flight attendents that are standing up in the back trying to serve hot coffee and such. After a few good bumps they WILL be calling up complaining.

Airline pilots are shunned for different reasons, but I go back to what I said earlier. There is no statistical proof that if a department hires a GA guy over an airline guy that the person will work out better. The airline guy just gets flagged when he doesn't work out and the story gets perpetuated throught the corporate community. If a GA guy is let go for the same reasons then little or nothing is said because he can't just be lumped in with a particular group.

If you have a flt department of at least 6 or 7 guys you cannot tell me at least 1 of them is not performing like the others. Now if the one is an airline guy then everyone throws up their hands and say "It's because he is too good for his job." If not then it usually goes "He is just lazy."

Remember Pops - Safety minded Airline Pilots plant em' into mountains in Columbia just as easy as Corporate Cowboys do in Aspen...some airline gods even takeoff on the wrong runways, some skid of snowy runways and kill kids, some even fly drunk.

Hop off that perch.

Where's this comparison going? nowhere. It dosen't matter. The individual does - not his chosen career path.

Maybe some airline guys just get a bad rep because they have a hard time getting along with others, can't adapt easily.....and really, really lack a sense of humor?

 

[BoilerUP]

I am just getting rid of all of the generalizations. Many of which are false.

What you fail to realize is you're airing PLENTY of generalizations about corporate pilots and corporate operations...many of which are ALSO false.

Yes, there are some cowboys out there that are more mission than safety-oriented....a very small and ever-dwindling number of people that make up a mere fraction of the corporate pilot population.

Yes, there HAVE been some accidents & incidents out there where corporate or charter pilots have done stupid things - the G3 in Aspen busting minimums, LR60 @ CAE that tried to abort after V1, the G2 at HOU that had the wrong frequency tuned, the Challengers not getting deiced seemingly everywhere, etc.

...but there also have been some accidents & incidents where airline pilots have done stupid things - attempted landing in microbursts, flying good airplanes into the ground, "4-1-0ing it dude", incompetent stall recoveries, not controlling the plane on a crosswind takeoff, etc.

BOTH segments have their operational warts - but you sure seem to be insinuating that corporate pilots as a group aren't safe and that's just as ignorantly wrong as corporate pilots saying airline pilots as a group make bad corporate pilots.

Yes, there are folks in the corporate world that have an ignorant, naive, stupid bias against airline pilots not founded on any type of fact. There's also folks that had an airline guy (typically furloughed) get hired after claiming they'd stay forever then bolted back to their airline job at their first opportunity, causing for better-or-worse the "reptuation" you're trying to disprove.

Let's face it - pretty much any pilot can fly pretty much any type of airplane, in pretty much any type of weather, in pretty much any country of the world. Airline pilots "do more with less" in terms of equipment; corporate pilots "do more with less" in terms of flight support.

Each segment is vastly different with greatly differing reasons for operating...comparing them for anything other than flying airplanes Point A to B is stupid.

 

[Sandhawk]

......

 

[Redtailer]

Both airline and corporate pilots have their fair share of accidents. My point was the fact that more times than not when there is an accident involving a GA aircraft it's usually due to a culture in that particular flight department. I said it before, there are great pilots and bad pilots on both sides. It's a matter of corporate safety culture that determines whether or not accidents happen.

The best way I have ever heard it explained was in AOPA magazine about a pilot that pushes the limits in GA. Eventually the pilot learns that he can fly below mins or launch in to marginal VFR to pick up IFR enroute. This pilot may never have an accident in his career, but eventually becomes CP or DO at a flight department. His rationale goes along the lines of "I did it safely so it is safe. I have never had an accident so you should be able to do it." That's where the problem comes in. Left unchecked that's how the culture of "Get the mission done" comes from. Most pilots in general will not go along with that thinking, but airline pilots specifically will be weeded out because they know airline pilots would raise a stink. Chances are that those are not the only regs being broken. Are the legends of Kalitta's 135 days not tales of lore? He is not alone.

I think across the board pilots from one side can do the job of the other can do it if they want. I have been on both sides of the fence. Had a blast flying corporate and 135. The real question is whether the company has a good safety culture and that's where the differences lie. With the airlines being villified by congressmen whose flights were delayed, lost bags or very public accidents the airlines are constantly under a microscope in regards to safety. Corporate flight departments are not under that same scrutiny. ISBAO is the equivalent of "OOooohh shiny." Lots of work to get, but ultimately means nothing.

Most departments are good, but some are just down right awful. Any airline guy going to fly corporate can do the job if he has decent work ethic and the job is explained to him before he is hired. Some jobs require that the pilot washes the airplane. I know a lot of corporate guys that won't do that. How long would a corporate guy stick around if he is pilot, aircraft washer/cleaner and lav dumper with mediocore pay? If he leaves then nobody says too much. If it's an airline guy they say we they made a mistake of hiring the airline guy.

Incidentally, one 135/91 dept I worked for had 15 pilots. 6 were former airline and we really didn't have any problems. Go figure. How many furloughed airline guys are there flying in the fractionals?

My whole point being that this whole business of saying that a department should not hire airline guys because of x,y,z is just BS.

 

[G4G5]

That sounds like AA. Hope you are not judging airline guys by their example... Their union guys are so screwed up they believe they invented the airplane. Can't tell them any different. Who was it that was still setting their altimeters so they read zero on landing up until a few years ago?

Your message is just as condescending though. Most of the tech stuff you have pointed out is applicable to newer aircraft and is taught at flight safety. I think just as many airline pilots can get it as corporate pilots. It's not rocket science. That's like me saying that we shouldn't hire corporate pilots because they only know how to fly with the help of EFIS and A/T. They shouldn't be hired because they can't handle flying a DC-9 to Cat II minimums with only 2 Vors and 1 NDB. Not to mention they would have trouble with a raw data NDB approach.

Actually I have flown for 2 of the big three so I can speak from experience. It's the nature of the beast, when you pay a pilot hourly they are always trying to maximize their pay, typically trying to fly less for more $$$. I understand the concept and have spent years doing it myself. It just doesn't translate well to the corporate world.

As far as technology, it's not even close. Sure we train at FSI or Simuflight but what I was referring to was the need to stay up on the latest industry trends. All one needs to do it look at the subjects of the threads on the corporate page. Their is a thread over here about having to write a chapter in an FOM about C-FOQA. You will never see a thread like that over on the Majors page, they are too busy arguing with some moron named General Lee.
Now you tell me what % of airline guys know and understand what FOQA is? In corporate you don't have a choice and that was my point. As a Director, I know my boss has asked "Have you operated HUD and EVS"? If so "explain to me what your EVS callouts are and what you are looking for"?
He would interview an airline guy, he's looking for quality no matter where it comes from. Can an airline guy find out the answer, sure he/she could but you need to get up off your rear and stay abreast of the latest industry trends on your own because you are not going to get them in the right seat of an MD80. In fact if an MD80 or any other low tech piece of equipment airline pilot came in for an interview and took the initiative to study the types of equipment that we fly and to know the answers to questions like the ones above, that individual would instantly move to the top of the pile based upon initiative alone.

But the reality is "most" airline guys think that"hey, I have 8000+ hours of acident free flying I am good to go, if they want me they will train me" while thats great it's just not enought to get a corporate job

 

[Redtailer]

.

As far as technology, it's not even close. Sure we train at FSI or Simuflight but what I was referring to was the need to stay up on the latest industry trends. All one needs to do it look at the subjects of the threads on the corporate page. Their is a thread over here about having to write a chapter in an FOM about C-FOQA. You will never see a thread like that over on the Majors page, they are too busy arguing with some moron named General Lee.
Now you tell me what % of airline guys know and understand what FOQA is? In corporate you don't have a choice and that was my point. As a Director, I know my boss has asked "Have you operated HUD and EVS"? If so "explain to me what your EVS callouts are and what you are looking for"?

See that's what I am talking about. If you have been in the corporate world long enough without any outside blood then you have no idea what you may be missing out on or what new procedures they may bring to the department.

I don't know a major airline that doesn't have a FOQA program in place. In fact I believe the program was developed in the airlines back in the early to mid 90s. As for the HUDs I know a couple of majors have them. I am sure Alaska 737s do. Not sure about the EVS in their airplanes though. Why would the airlines spend the money when they can do CAT IIIB Autolands in almost 0-0 weather? Not saying EVS isn't great, but just that it would be redundant to spend the money on it.

Airlines will always do 2 things better than any corporate flight department. 1. Save money and 2. Stay safe enough to keep pax from complaining.

For instance several airlines are using the Turb Plot info developed by NW. It's a great system to keep aircraft out of turbulence that actually works and saves money in the process. Delta has Attila for aircraft sequencing which they claim saves millions and mitigates delays. Airlines were using NRP long before most corporate departments ever heard of it which saves millions in direct routing. In fact there are still a lot of corporate departments in the dark on the that one as to what it is or how it actually works. Have an ASAP program yet? The list goes on.

How many Citations have a HUD/EVS? Beech? Bombardier? The fact is that MOST of the corporate world does not have that equipment either. Almost anything older than the PlaneView cockpits are on par with the airlines which is the majority of corporate jets and that will probably change when the 787 arrives or the other next generation airliners. So the playing field is level when it comes to knowing the equipment. I would even go so far as to say the airline guys have an advantage because they are already in tune with what the new FAA programs like FOQA, AQP, and others are before most corporate departments ever hear of them.