"Airline types need not apply"

[aa73]

seen on a few online corporate openings. What gives? I don't think I've ever seen "corporate pilots need not apply" on airline apps.

Seems like airline types have a bad rap at corporate flight depts. Is it really that bad?

 

[LJ45]

seen on a few online corporate openings. What gives? I don't think I've ever seen "corporate pilots need not apply" on airline apps.

Seems like airline types have a bad rap at corporate flight depts. Is it really that bad?

With some pilots, yes it's that bad.

 

[aa73]

What do they do that is so bad?

 

[CutEmUp]

On the other hand, some corporate departments thrive with a large number of former airline (regional, major, cargo) pilots in the ranks.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

With some pilots, yes it's that bad.

agree 100%.

Then again - any outfit that even puts an online ad out there these days is likely pretty rock bottom.

99.99% of the real corporate ads you will see are HR fluff after the position has been filled, and they wont say dumb crap like that in them.

Sounds like their way of saying -- 2 pilots, low pay, 24/7 avail, and quick turnover.

Dont put much thought into it, its an ongoing, neverending argument in this business and does not have much bearing at all on how good jobs are landed.....(friends)

Good Luck.

 

[njcapt]

What do they do that is so bad?

Get a $50k type on the company's dime then take their first recall to United, Continental, etc. Complain about how overworked they are, how they always get the crappy trips, got passed over for upgrade, etc. Refuse to stow the boss' luggage, get his car, spend xmas on the road, etc.

I flew for numerous airlines for 15 years and had to get a big break from a friend and make my bones for my company before I was able to scrape the "airline stink" off of me. Unfortunately, the small minority of ex-airline corporate pilots give the rest of us a bad name. Not fair, but that's the way it goes. I make damn sure that any of my airline relations I recommend for a position with my outfit will NOT screw the company (and me) over.

 

[aa73]

Get a $50k type on the company's dime then take their first recall to United, Continental, etc. Complain about how overworked they are, how they always get the crappy trips, got passed over for upgrade, etc. Refuse to stow the boss' luggage, get his car, spend xmas on the road, etc.

I flew for numerous airlines for 15 years and had to get a big break from a friend and make my bones for my company before I was able to scrape the "airline stink" off of me. Unfortunately, the small minority of ex-airline corporate pilots give the rest of us a bad name. Not fair, but that's the way it goes. I make damn sure that any of my airline relations I recommend for a position with my outfit will NOT screw the company (and me) over.

Regarding getting a type and then bailing - How is that different, from, say, a new hire at DAL that bails after a couple months and then goes to SWA or Fedex? Isn't that the cost of doing business? Yes it may be expensive but are you really going to stay at some employer just because you feel bad about the employer eating the cost? What if you're miserable and don't feel you got the right job?

Regarding the other complaints - I hear those same complaints every day at the airlines. Overworked - check. Xmas and holidays on the road - check. I guess I don't quite see how and why being a corporate pilot would be any different than a comparably paying airline job. Seems we complain about the same stuff.

Honestly, I'm just curious, not trying to start anything here. I appreciate the honest responses. I'm trying to think of any corporate pilots that came to the airlines and whether they had different attitudes than a straight 121 guy, and I can't seem to differentiate - in fact, the ones I know came to 121 simply because their 91/135 job was really THAT bad and the airlines where a much better deal. But I guess, if you land that REALLY GOOD 91/135 job, it beats the airlines any day. Thanks again for a good debate, I am very happy for those of you who bailed from 121 and scored a really good deal in the corporate world.

 

[54fighting]

Regarding getting a type and then bailing - How is that different, from, say, a new hire at DAL that bails after a couple months and then goes to SWA or Fedex? Isn't that the cost of doing business? Yes it may be expensive but are you really going to stay at some employer just because you feel bad about the employer eating the cost? What if you're miserable and don't feel you got the right job?

Two different business models. The airlines are in business to transport people, cargo etc and try to make a profit doing it. A corporate department is just a unit of the business which I assure you is not in the passenger transportation arena. We are a cost center plain and simple. We cost the the company money. So many managers try to minimize their risk by hiring the right individual, whatever that may be.

Does that make sense what I just wrote? I just finished recurrent

 

[aa73]

Yes it does, sounds like you had a great recurrent.

 

[400A]

seen on a few online corporate openings. What gives? I don't think I've ever seen "corporate pilots need not apply" on airline apps.

Seems like airline types have a bad rap at corporate flight depts. Is it really that bad?

I would beg to differ. A requirement for 121 PIC time or Military equivalent is the same thing.

For those who feel the cost of training issue is no different than changing airlines, I also disagree. We do not have thousands of pilots and in house training. A 100% increase in the training budget will almost guarantee the Chief Pilot a trip to corporate headquarters.

 

[54fighting]

What G200 says is gold as well, even if he is a putz..... Most of the good jobs are filled with someone with an inside track, friend or friend of a friend etc. :beer:

 

[semperfido]

Regarding getting a type and then bailing - How is that different, from, say, a new hire at DAL that bails after a couple months and then goes to SWA or Fedex? Isn't that the cost of doing business? Yes it may be expensive but are you really going to stay at some employer just because you feel bad about the employer eating the cost? What if you're miserable and don't feel you got the right job?

Regarding the other complaints - I hear those same complaints every day at the airlines. Overworked - check. Xmas and holidays on the road - check. I guess I don't quite see how and why being a corporate pilot would be any different than a comparably paying airline job. Seems we complain about the same stuff.

Honestly, I'm just curious, not trying to start anything here. I appreciate the honest responses. I'm trying to think of any corporate pilots that came to the airlines and whether they had different attitudes than a straight 121 guy, and I can't seem to differentiate - in fact, the ones I know came to 121 simply because their 91/135 job was really THAT bad and the airlines where a much better deal. But I guess, if you land that REALLY GOOD 91/135 job, it beats the airlines any day. Thanks again for a good debate, I am very happy for those of you who bailed from 121 and scored a really good deal in the corporate world.

jeez dude, you really that clueless?

 

[wolfpackpilot]

What do they do that is so bad?

refuse to shoot a GPS/NDB/VOR approach in Night IMC to minimums at an uncontrolled 4300ft strip.

 

[AA717driver]

I think it's you, aa73. If you won't wear your airline hat, what else won't you do?

If you need guidance in this area, give me a call. My number is on the APA page.

TC

ETA: 54fighting--LOVE the avatar!

 

[aa73]

I think it's you, aa73. If you won't wear your airline hat, what else won't you do?

If you need guidance in this area, give me a call. My number is on the APA page.

TC

What is this "airline hat" that you all speak of?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

What G200 says is gold as well, even if he is a putz..... Most of the good jobs are filled with someone with an inside track, friend or friend of a friend etc. :beer:

MEAN!!

:crying:

 

[njcapt]

Regarding getting a type and then bailing - How is that different, from, say, a new hire at DAL that bails after a couple months and then goes to SWA or Fedex? Isn't that the cost of doing business? Yes it may be expensive but are you really going to stay at some employer just because you feel bad about the employer eating the cost? What if you're miserable and don't feel you got the right job?

Regarding the other complaints - I hear those same complaints every day at the airlines. Overworked - check. Xmas and holidays on the road - check. I guess I don't quite see how and why being a corporate pilot would be any different than a comparably paying airline job. Seems we complain about the same stuff.

Honestly, I'm just curious, not trying to start anything here. I appreciate the honest responses. I'm trying to think of any corporate pilots that came to the airlines and whether they had different attitudes than a straight 121 guy, and I can't seem to differentiate - in fact, the ones I know came to 121 simply because their 91/135 job was really THAT bad and the airlines where a much better deal. But I guess, if you land that REALLY GOOD 91/135 job, it beats the airlines any day. Thanks again for a good debate, I am very happy for those of you who bailed from 121 and scored a really good deal in the corporate world.

No worries, they're honest questions.

Like 400A alluded to, losing one pilot out of an airline new hire class is a drop in the bucket relative to the size of the pilot group and has limited effect to the bottom line. Losing someone at a corporate flight department of maybe four pilots absolutely guts the staff, forces everybody else to cover for the loss and costs a major percentage of the annual budget to train the replacement. Also, never underestimate the ability of entrenched corporate flight department management to excessively and unfairly stereotype airline pilots, extrapolating a few instances into a blanket prejudice of the whole industry. It isn't fair, but it's the way it is.

In my case, I had four years of corporate flying in the beginning of my career to help with my street cred and a willingness to quit my airline job (not a furlough) to take the corporate position. It didn't hurt that it was a BBJ job and my company had essentially zero experience with the type (the Chief Pilot at the time didn't know a BBJ had the same type rating as a 737).

 

[54fighting]

I think it's you, aa73. If you won't wear your airline hat, what else won't you do?

If you need guidance in this area, give me a call. My number is on the APA page.

TC

ETA: 54fighting--LOVE the avatar!

Crap, did I spell There, They're or Their wrong somewhere :laugh:

 

[AA717driver]

What is this "airline hat" that you all speak of?

It's that cloth bag you put the lugnuts in when you're changing your tire on the way to work. (AFTER you call CCS to inform them you'll be late for sign in and beg them not to give your trip to a reserve... But, that's another thread. )

54fighting--No, you didn't use it wrong. If you had, having that avatar would have guaranteed a $h!tstorm-dog-pile the likes of which have not been seen on this board for some time.

TC

 

[AA717driver]

Ok. AA73, here's the quick and dirty differences.

If I'm a CA at AA, and I don't want to say anything on the PA or stand at the door and say goodbye to the freight as it exits the airplane, I don't have to.

In corporate, you HAVE to be, first and foremost, a concierge, travel agent, F/A and ramper (hauling trash and dumping lavs--everything!) depending on the needs at the moment. You have to be motivated, self-starting and proactive. You wait for stuff to happen or for the ramp guys in the FBO to do something and you WILL end up looking like a lazy idiot when Mr. Big shows up 15 min. early. The flying is, to the pax, a non-event UNLESS you make it an event. THEN it's a big deal.

At AA, you get 13-17 days off. Free. Clear. If CCS calls, you don't answer. You want to run over to Paris on your 8 day spread between months? Have at it.

At many corporate jobs you get significantly fewer days off. You may not fly much but you can't leave town--just in case. Many operations don't have sick days. (Yeah, I know you're not supposed to fly sick. We all know better...)

These are the basic differences but the corporate job is so much more nuanced that the airlines. It's certainly not for everyone.

Personally, I'm bored to death right now. Flying to "the four corners" with stops through the hubs gets monotonous. Not complaining--I'm happy to have a job but I certainly don't get all tingly 'strapping on the jet' these days.

Corporate is challenging--CONSTANTLY. You must guard against F-ups ALL THE TIME. It's stressful but rewarding--when you pull off a big play and avoid a disaster (Mr. Big never knowing how close he came to seeing chaos...) it's a great feeling. Until the next disaster aversion exercise.

No job is perfect. If you want out of the airlines bad enough, you can pull it off like njcapt did. It will take a lot of work and you will be suspect for a long time but you can do it.

I think a lot of the bad blood comes from airline people who think they want a corporate job but once they get into the job, they just don't like it. Never mind that that individual ran back to the airlines and never set foot in a bizjet again--it's one more story about an airline guy who bailed.

TC

ETA: I will say that while airline guys who bail get a bad rap there are a bazillion examples of corporate guys coming and going but "they just didn't fit in". If you're a corporate guy and you leave a job after a few months, you get a pass. If you're airline, you get slammed. That's just the way it works.

 

[BoilerUP]

ETA: I will say that while airline guys who bail get a bad rap there are a bazillion examples of corporate guys coming and going but "they just didn't fit in". If you're a corporate guy and you leave a job after a few months, you get a pass. If you're airline, you get slammed. That's just the way it works.

Corporate guys who only work a job a couple months then leave typically DON'T get a free pass - unless their leaving was involuntary, if ya know what I mean.

There are entire other threads dedicated to folks who "grab a rating and run", leaving departments operationally & financially in the lurch, along with the pilot(s) who recommended that person (and sometimes, the manager who hired them) in the crosshairs of whoever the flight department reports to.

...which is why its so important to hire the right PERSON for each specific operation, regardless of whatever the hell that person's aviation background might be.

 

[nerdpilot]

Well maybe if you do leave after a couple of months because you are highly underpaid and you have been fortunate to have found something better, it might wake up your frugal mulitmillionaire to pay a decent salary instead of having their jet sit idle while it takes at least a month to get a guy 135 ready again. They have the right to let you go anytime and you have the right to leave anytime. Give me a contract and I will stick to it.

 

[semperfido]

Wasn't it AA73 that was on here a couple months ago throwing out flame bait on this same subject matter?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well maybe if you do leave after a couple of months because you are highly underpaid and you have been fortunate to have found something better, it might wake up your frugal mulitmillionaire to pay a decent salary instead of having their jet sit idle while it takes at least a month to get a guy 135 ready again. They have the right to let you go anytime and you have the right to leave anytime. Give me a contract and I will stick to it.

Will you really teach those richy rich folks a hard lesson?

or will they simply hire YET ANOTHER sub-standard guy who is more than eager to work for "highly underpaid" wages just to fly an airplane. Crap jobs are crap jobs...aviation, not aviation, etc.

Don't kid yourself, nothing sits idle in the real world and pilots are as disposable as a goddam Kleenex.

Know your own worth and stick to it.

 

[aa73]

Wasn't it AA73 that was on here a couple months ago throwing out flame bait on this same subject matter?

If, by "flame bait" you mean asking serious questions on subjects I'm not an expert on, then yes, that was me.

Call it what you like - I'm constantly evaluating the pros and cons of airline vs corporate, since this "fabulous" airline job may very well evaporate at a moment's notice... as such, I feel it's good to be informed.

TC... thanks a bunch for the scoop. I appreciate the honest answers.

 

[Redtailer]

I can safely say that it just doesn't matter if a person is airline or not. If he is going to leave due to the working conditions then he is going to leave. I have been on all of the different sides of this having been an airline pilot first, went corporate then back to the airlines again. Anyone that puts an ad out that doesn't want airline pilots is just ignorant.

Some folks may not like what I am going to say next, but this is my opinion after seeing both worlds for a while. The corporate folks have good pilots and some good flight departments, but those are more of the exceptions than the rule. Here is what I have noticed. In a lot of cases the flight department is REALLY small. Maybe 2-6 pilots. Many have the attitude of not wanting airline pilots in their ranks so in a lot of cases the pilots on staff have worked their way up through the 135 charter/flight instructing ranks. These folks eventually become CPs at a young age and only because corporate pilots in general fly much less than airline guys, tend to have overall less experience. Once again I know there are a lot of really great pilots in the corporate world, but what I am talking about are a lot of places that don't have some of those folks in charge. Also, many places do not have a corporate memory like an airline does.

What you end up with is the blind leading the blind. Contrast that to the airlines. The pool of experience is much larger. In most cases you will have someone in the right seat of a major airline flying with someone that has been at that airline for 20+ years. The wealth of experience and the safety structure of an airline is passed on from one generation to the next. This is something that mostly just doesn't happen in the coprorate world. Once a new DO, CP, or both moves in it's almost like starting over again.

So in my opinion one of the best things a flight department could do is to hire major airline pilots that have been around the block. They bring a different perspective to the table. The problem is that sometimes that perspective is not wanted.

Now having said all of that the whole carrying the boss's bag thing is a bit of an adjustment. I don't think that has anything to do with being an airline pilot though. I believe that the airline pilots get a bad rap because it's easy to tag that person as such when the job doesn't work out. Fact is that jerks come from all walks of life. How many times have you heard of a coprorate pilot being let go from a department? If it was an airline pilot rumors would fly like mad because he was too good for the job. If not it all goes quietly as just some guy that couldn't fly.

See no one really has any statistics how well airline pilots make the transition to corporate flying versus non-airline pilots. It's all just hearsay and anecdotes. Kind of like some old sayings. "Bull in a china shop." "Taking candy from a baby." These are statements that "everyone knows" are just true. Take another look around the internet about those.

 

[ackattacker]

A lot of good info and well thought out posts on this thread.

Having worked both corporate and airline (in that order), I will say that Redtailer's post above is pretty much spot on. It's true that airline pilots are frequently seen as prima donnas. But it's also true that airline pilots are brought up in a safety/union culture where you can always choose the conservative path and nobody questions you. Captain is King. In corporate that just doesn't always fly, and you basically have to tread a much finer line. You can easily lose your job for making a call that in the airline world nobody would say boo, except maybe behind your back. Depending upon the flight department it probably takes more real backbone, and certainly more tact to be a successful and *safe* corporate pilot than it takes to be an airline pilot. In the airline world you can be a truly miserable, hateful, and contrary human being and still keep your job. However given the wide spectrum of folks who constitute the pilot group, as a whole I'd have to say I sleep sounder in the back of an airliner than I do in the back of a corporate jet. Not that the airline pilot is less likely to be a moron, just that he's more likely to be an experienced moron who errs on the safe side than a too-eager moron who errs on the side of git'r'done. The accident statistics back me up on this. But CP's and corporate types doing the hiring at a small flight department don't want to know about that. They just see airline "types" as people who write up broken airplanes and bitch and moan about perceived unsafe practices which have been SOP for years. Point is, any ad which specifies "no airline" I see as a huge red flag. It means they want you to be *compliant* and go along with the program even if that program is unsafe, unprofessional, and has a high turnover.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

A lot of good info and well thought out posts on this thread.

Having worked both corporate and airline (in that order), I will say that Redtailer's post above is pretty much spot on. It's true that airline pilots are frequently seen as prima donnas. But it's also true that airline pilots are brought up in a safety/union culture where you can always choose the conservative path and nobody questions you. Captain is King. In corporate that just doesn't always fly, and you basically have to tread a much finer line. You can easily lose your job for making a call that in the airline world nobody would say boo, except maybe behind your back. Depending upon the flight department it probably takes more real backbone, and certainly more tact to be a successful and *safe* corporate pilot than it takes to be an airline pilot. In the airline world you can be a truly miserable, hateful, and contrary human being and still keep your job. However given the wide spectrum of folks who constitute the pilot group, as a whole I'd have to say I sleep sounder in the back of an airliner than I do in the back of a corporate jet. Not that the airline pilot is less likely to be a moron, just that he's more likely to be an experienced moron who errs on the safe side than a too-eager moron who errs on the side of git'r'done. The accident statistics back me up on this. But CP's and corporate types doing the hiring at a small flight department don't want to know about that. They just see airline "types" as people who write up broken airplanes and bitch and moan about perceived unsafe practices which have been SOP for years. Point is, any ad which specifies "no airline" I see as a huge red flag. It means they want you to be *compliant* and go along with the program even if that program is unsafe, unprofessional, and has a high turnover.

Anyone still wonder why some in corporate wont consider airline guys?

 

[LJ45]

I wish I could hire some of those experienced Dash 8 airline pilots that are very good at stalls, or a 737 captain that can handle a good x-wind

I think we can all agree stereotypes are bad, unless the majority makes it true....hahaha

 

[Apache06]

I agree Gulfstream 200.My chief pilot and two of my line pilots are former airline. To a man, they do a great job.

It's more about the individual.