"Airline types need not apply"

[BoilerUP]

ETA: I will say that while airline guys who bail get a bad rap there are a bazillion examples of corporate guys coming and going but "they just didn't fit in". If you're a corporate guy and you leave a job after a few months, you get a pass. If you're airline, you get slammed. That's just the way it works.

Corporate guys who only work a job a couple months then leave typically DON'T get a free pass - unless their leaving was involuntary, if ya know what I mean.

There are entire other threads dedicated to folks who "grab a rating and run", leaving departments operationally & financially in the lurch, along with the pilot(s) who recommended that person (and sometimes, the manager who hired them) in the crosshairs of whoever the flight department reports to.

...which is why its so important to hire the right PERSON for each specific operation, regardless of whatever the hell that person's aviation background might be.

 

[nerdpilot]

Well maybe if you do leave after a couple of months because you are highly underpaid and you have been fortunate to have found something better, it might wake up your frugal mulitmillionaire to pay a decent salary instead of having their jet sit idle while it takes at least a month to get a guy 135 ready again. They have the right to let you go anytime and you have the right to leave anytime. Give me a contract and I will stick to it.

 

[semperfido]

Wasn't it AA73 that was on here a couple months ago throwing out flame bait on this same subject matter?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Well maybe if you do leave after a couple of months because you are highly underpaid and you have been fortunate to have found something better, it might wake up your frugal mulitmillionaire to pay a decent salary instead of having their jet sit idle while it takes at least a month to get a guy 135 ready again. They have the right to let you go anytime and you have the right to leave anytime. Give me a contract and I will stick to it.

Will you really teach those richy rich folks a hard lesson?

or will they simply hire YET ANOTHER sub-standard guy who is more than eager to work for "highly underpaid" wages just to fly an airplane. Crap jobs are crap jobs...aviation, not aviation, etc.

Don't kid yourself, nothing sits idle in the real world and pilots are as disposable as a goddam Kleenex.

Know your own worth and stick to it.

 

[aa73]

Wasn't it AA73 that was on here a couple months ago throwing out flame bait on this same subject matter?

If, by "flame bait" you mean asking serious questions on subjects I'm not an expert on, then yes, that was me.

Call it what you like - I'm constantly evaluating the pros and cons of airline vs corporate, since this "fabulous" airline job may very well evaporate at a moment's notice... as such, I feel it's good to be informed.

TC... thanks a bunch for the scoop. I appreciate the honest answers.

 

[Redtailer]

I can safely say that it just doesn't matter if a person is airline or not. If he is going to leave due to the working conditions then he is going to leave. I have been on all of the different sides of this having been an airline pilot first, went corporate then back to the airlines again. Anyone that puts an ad out that doesn't want airline pilots is just ignorant.

Some folks may not like what I am going to say next, but this is my opinion after seeing both worlds for a while. The corporate folks have good pilots and some good flight departments, but those are more of the exceptions than the rule. Here is what I have noticed. In a lot of cases the flight department is REALLY small. Maybe 2-6 pilots. Many have the attitude of not wanting airline pilots in their ranks so in a lot of cases the pilots on staff have worked their way up through the 135 charter/flight instructing ranks. These folks eventually become CPs at a young age and only because corporate pilots in general fly much less than airline guys, tend to have overall less experience. Once again I know there are a lot of really great pilots in the corporate world, but what I am talking about are a lot of places that don't have some of those folks in charge. Also, many places do not have a corporate memory like an airline does.

What you end up with is the blind leading the blind. Contrast that to the airlines. The pool of experience is much larger. In most cases you will have someone in the right seat of a major airline flying with someone that has been at that airline for 20+ years. The wealth of experience and the safety structure of an airline is passed on from one generation to the next. This is something that mostly just doesn't happen in the coprorate world. Once a new DO, CP, or both moves in it's almost like starting over again.

So in my opinion one of the best things a flight department could do is to hire major airline pilots that have been around the block. They bring a different perspective to the table. The problem is that sometimes that perspective is not wanted.

Now having said all of that the whole carrying the boss's bag thing is a bit of an adjustment. I don't think that has anything to do with being an airline pilot though. I believe that the airline pilots get a bad rap because it's easy to tag that person as such when the job doesn't work out. Fact is that jerks come from all walks of life. How many times have you heard of a coprorate pilot being let go from a department? If it was an airline pilot rumors would fly like mad because he was too good for the job. If not it all goes quietly as just some guy that couldn't fly.

See no one really has any statistics how well airline pilots make the transition to corporate flying versus non-airline pilots. It's all just hearsay and anecdotes. Kind of like some old sayings. "Bull in a china shop." "Taking candy from a baby." These are statements that "everyone knows" are just true. Take another look around the internet about those.

 

[ackattacker]

A lot of good info and well thought out posts on this thread.

Having worked both corporate and airline (in that order), I will say that Redtailer's post above is pretty much spot on. It's true that airline pilots are frequently seen as prima donnas. But it's also true that airline pilots are brought up in a safety/union culture where you can always choose the conservative path and nobody questions you. Captain is King. In corporate that just doesn't always fly, and you basically have to tread a much finer line. You can easily lose your job for making a call that in the airline world nobody would say boo, except maybe behind your back. Depending upon the flight department it probably takes more real backbone, and certainly more tact to be a successful and *safe* corporate pilot than it takes to be an airline pilot. In the airline world you can be a truly miserable, hateful, and contrary human being and still keep your job. However given the wide spectrum of folks who constitute the pilot group, as a whole I'd have to say I sleep sounder in the back of an airliner than I do in the back of a corporate jet. Not that the airline pilot is less likely to be a moron, just that he's more likely to be an experienced moron who errs on the safe side than a too-eager moron who errs on the side of git'r'done. The accident statistics back me up on this. But CP's and corporate types doing the hiring at a small flight department don't want to know about that. They just see airline "types" as people who write up broken airplanes and bitch and moan about perceived unsafe practices which have been SOP for years. Point is, any ad which specifies "no airline" I see as a huge red flag. It means they want you to be *compliant* and go along with the program even if that program is unsafe, unprofessional, and has a high turnover.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

A lot of good info and well thought out posts on this thread.

Having worked both corporate and airline (in that order), I will say that Redtailer's post above is pretty much spot on. It's true that airline pilots are frequently seen as prima donnas. But it's also true that airline pilots are brought up in a safety/union culture where you can always choose the conservative path and nobody questions you. Captain is King. In corporate that just doesn't always fly, and you basically have to tread a much finer line. You can easily lose your job for making a call that in the airline world nobody would say boo, except maybe behind your back. Depending upon the flight department it probably takes more real backbone, and certainly more tact to be a successful and *safe* corporate pilot than it takes to be an airline pilot. In the airline world you can be a truly miserable, hateful, and contrary human being and still keep your job. However given the wide spectrum of folks who constitute the pilot group, as a whole I'd have to say I sleep sounder in the back of an airliner than I do in the back of a corporate jet. Not that the airline pilot is less likely to be a moron, just that he's more likely to be an experienced moron who errs on the safe side than a too-eager moron who errs on the side of git'r'done. The accident statistics back me up on this. But CP's and corporate types doing the hiring at a small flight department don't want to know about that. They just see airline "types" as people who write up broken airplanes and bitch and moan about perceived unsafe practices which have been SOP for years. Point is, any ad which specifies "no airline" I see as a huge red flag. It means they want you to be *compliant* and go along with the program even if that program is unsafe, unprofessional, and has a high turnover.

Anyone still wonder why some in corporate wont consider airline guys?

 

[LJ45]

I wish I could hire some of those experienced Dash 8 airline pilots that are very good at stalls, or a 737 captain that can handle a good x-wind

I think we can all agree stereotypes are bad, unless the majority makes it true....hahaha

 

[Apache06]

I agree Gulfstream 200.My chief pilot and two of my line pilots are former airline. To a man, they do a great job.

It's more about the individual.

 

[AA717driver]

I'm willing to bet that leaving a department for more money does not give them a wakeup call. The management just makes excuses when questioned by the owner.

"He just came here for the rating, Sir. No way to forsee that kind of treachery."

Re: Airline pilots and safety. I will repeat what I've said on this topic before--At the department I was in, there were some pilots who were as good as any I knew at the airlines. There were also problem children who I definitely wouldn't want flying my kids around. At the airlines, there were 20 year veterens who couldn't find their ass with both hands.

There are princes and d-bags galore in both ends of the business.

Generalizing generally fails.

TC

 

[JettBoii]

I have been trying to get a certain corporate job for three years; applied three times with a walk in. Nothing. They hire a regional guy who was a friend of the DO/CP. They paid for his type and he bailed at 5 months. So they are angry now and want a 1000 hour guy who will sign a 2 year training contract for 30K a year. I applied again and they said I was overqualified. Very frustrating. I couldnt get a job flying a Baron with 1200 hours but I landed a job flying a RJ. Oh well.

 

[pilothouston123]

I run a flight department and I would hesitate to hire a life long airline guy. my experience has shown that nost of the guy from the airlines don't understand the fast that flying is only about 20% of what we do. When I asked a retired airline guy to check the experation dates on the juices his response was "doing that is below my paygrade".

I do know one guy that is humble and willing but he was the exception to the rule. I also know there are guys that have been in the corporate world along time not willing to do the things that I do to offer personal service to my boss. My boss has asked me to pick up his dogs on the airport so he could attend a funeral. I am grateful to have a job I feel secure with and would do most anything my boss asks.

Simply put we are flying a hotel with wings and sometimes we have to do things that airline pilots would never have to do. On the other hand, we don't go to Cleveland five times a week. I get to choose my hotel and shoot as many deer as I can on my bosses ranch. I surely don't fit the mold of an airline pilot nor do I expect that some guys don't fit the mold of corporate pilots.

 

[ackattacker]

I really do agree with most of what has been said here, hope what I posted wasn't taken as a dig at corporate flying. A lot of really good flight departments and pilots out there.

I still think though anybody who puts that right in their advertisement "no airline" is suspect. Could be they got burned in the past but rather than look at the whole picture including their own operation they just put the blame on some outside evil influence and stigmatize the whole group.

 

[AA717driver]

Corporate guys who only work a job a couple months then leave typically DON'T get a free pass - unless their leaving was involuntary, if ya know what I mean.

There are entire other threads dedicated to folks who "grab a rating and run", leaving departments operationally & financially in the lurch, along with the pilot(s) who recommended that person (and sometimes, the manager who hired them) in the crosshairs of whoever the flight department reports to.

Boiler--But the "individual" who has a corporate background who skips can remain somewhat anonymous while an airline guy who skips tars the entire group.

TC

 

[con-pilot]

Ok. AA73, here's the quick and dirty differences.

If I'm a CA at AA, and I don't want to say anything on the PA or stand at the door and say goodbye to the freight as it exits the airplane, I don't have to.

In corporate, you HAVE to be, first and foremost, a concierge, travel agent, F/A and ramper (hauling trash and dumping lavs--everything!) depending on the needs at the moment. You have to be motivated, self-starting and proactive. You wait for stuff to happen or for the ramp guys in the FBO to do something and you WILL end up looking like a lazy idiot when Mr. Big shows up 15 min. early. The flying is, to the pax, a non-event UNLESS you make it an event. THEN it's a big deal.

At AA, you get 13-17 days off. Free. Clear. If CCS calls, you don't answer. You want to run over to Paris on your 8 day spread between months? Have at it.

At many corporate jobs you get significantly fewer days off. You may not fly much but you can't leave town--just in case. Many operations don't have sick days. (Yeah, I know you're not supposed to fly sick. We all know better...)

These are the basic differences but the corporate job is so much more nuanced that the airlines. It's certainly not for everyone.

Personally, I'm bored to death right now. Flying to "the four corners" with stops through the hubs gets monotonous. Not complaining--I'm happy to have a job but I certainly don't get all tingly 'strapping on the jet' these days.

Corporate is challenging--CONSTANTLY. You must guard against F-ups ALL THE TIME. It's stressful but rewarding--when you pull off a big play and avoid a disaster (Mr. Big never knowing how close he came to seeing chaos...) it's a great feeling. Until the next disaster aversion exercise.

No job is perfect. If you want out of the airlines bad enough, you can pull it off like njcapt did. It will take a lot of work and you will be suspect for a long time but you can do it.

I think a lot of the bad blood comes from airline people who think they want a corporate job but once they get into the job, they just don't like it. Never mind that that individual ran back to the airlines and never set foot in a bizjet again--it's one more story about an airline guy who bailed.

TC

ETA: I will say that while airline guys who bail get a bad rap there are a bazillion examples of corporate guys coming and going but "they just didn't fit in". If you're a corporate guy and you leave a job after a few months, you get a pass. If you're airline, you get slammed. That's just the way it works.

Excellent post AA. As it has been stated many times for many years, all an airline pilot needs to worry about is flying the aircraft, with most corporate pilots, flying the aircraft is the least of their concerns. A corporate crew can fly across the ocean, transiting multiple lines of thunderstorms, fly an approach to minimums to a strange foreign airport and make a very smooth landing, but if the transportation for the boss is late or the catering was not up to the expectations of the passengers, you're basically screwed.

The fact that all I had to do was fly he aircraft when I was with the US Marshal Service, was about the only redeeming factor of that job.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

refuse to shoot a GPS/NDB/VOR approach in Night IMC to minimums at an uncontrolled 4300ft strip.

Nice try. I been doing those for the last 15+ years at my major US airline (GPS Recently). While the strips were more than 4300' long, scaling the length up for the aircraft size including a 440,000 widebody gives the same pucker factor as a bizjet flying into a short strip.

Many were also done non-radar and from the FIR boundary inbound, not "cancel IFR" after landing. The towers were technically controlled, but often by a guys with the same english skills as a leaf blower operator in the USA. Probably paid the same too.

I think we can throw stones at each group all day long. I have to file an ASAP a couple times of year after listening to the guys trying in vain to get an overflight clearance from Havana Center after dropping the preflight ball. It never fails to incapacitate me when the conversation finally ends up with the guy pleading "can't you please take a credit card number?' and the reply is "east or west, your choice to GCM around Cuba".

Generalizations are wrong. Smart hiring will exactly explain the duties involved at the interview. If it's weekend leading edge polishing or checking peanut expiration dates, there should be no questions or surprises on what the job entails.

That being said, it's been 20 years since flying 135/91, but back then there were plenty of people i came across who had some deep insecurity when it came to airline guys.

 

[semperfido]

Excellent post AA. As it has been stated many times for many years, all an airline pilot needs to worry about is flying the aircraft, with most corporate pilots, flying the aircraft is the least of their concerns. A corporate crew can fly across the ocean, transiting multiple lines of thunderstorms, fly an approach to minimums to a strange foreign airport and make a very smooth landing, but if the transportation for the boss is late or the catering was not up to the expectations of the passengers, you're basically screwed.

.

.....and that is why you can't take any of it too seriously.

 

[Freight Dog]

Departments that blatantly say 'no airline types' scream EGOMANIAC IN CHARGE! At least IMHO...

Sure, places will have turnover whether it's people leaving to go the airlines or return to the airlines or people going to other departments, but in the end, what are the department dynamics? Who hires pilots? What's the compensation package? What is the total package like? What is the department manager like as a leader? What is the chief pilot like to work for? All those things have a HUGE play when it comes to turnover - blaming airline pilots is a copout and a weak one at that.

If you are flying a large cabin bizjet for a reputable company, chances are you won't see that money for quite a while, if ever, at the airlines. Yet, you still may see furloughed airline pilots and even pure corporate pilots take significant paycuts to go/return to the airlines. You have to ask yourself why? The easiest thing is to point the finger and blame others - be it "airline types" or whatever. But is that really why?

 

[AA717driver]

.....and that is why you can't take any of it too seriously.

You're just too D@MN laid back, fido.

TC