"Airline types need not apply"

[Paradoxus]

My hair may be badly thinning and my teeth kinda gnarly, but we do lots of pushups in front of our Cessna 172 and we are ready to fight!

Hahaha!

 

[AA717driver]

If there is any statement I have EVER made on this board, none is truer than what follows:

The layover scene today at the airlines (at least the one that flies shiny planes) bears no resemblance to that of 30 years ago. In fact, other than a literal handful of CA's, I do not go out with the crew. I've heard the stories. I know your kids are either doing great or they're F-ed up beyond belief and you don't know how to get them out of your basement.

I know you hate your wife (whatever number she may be) and you're just flying to age 65 because your first two wives or an airline owner stole your pension. Blah, blah, blah.

I know the union/contract situation as well as anyone so I don't really care to give you "Airline Contracts 101" at the bar.

If I find a corporate pilot on the road, I'll talk to them because it's something different. But, usually they turn and run when they find out I'm airline...

Thank heaven's for internet p0rn and take out. :laugh:

TC

 

[sleepy]

I flew at two airlines and I didn't have any trouble getting a corporate job. I have heard it said that airline pilots won't load bags or make coffee. In my experiences the laziest pilots we have never worked at an airline. The really lazy ones came from the military.

 

[jet2work]

Regarding getting a type and then bailing - How is that different, from, say, a new hire at DAL that bails after a couple months and then goes to SWA or Fedex? Isn't that the cost of doing business? Yes it may be expensive but are you really going to stay at some employer just because you feel bad about the employer eating the cost? What if you're miserable and don't feel you got the right job?

For one, a 737 type can be had for about $8000. A GV type will cost you about 10 times as much (retail FlightSafety not on a FS contract).

When you say "isn't that the cost of doing business?" I must agree that you are correct. And as such, a wise manager will do certain things to avoid such costs. To wit, like not hiring an airline guy with that kind of attitude.

We have a mix where I work, and I think the 121 guys are great guys, and very solid pilots. It has been my experience that they are almost always the first ones to raise the issue of pay (we are industry standard), and neglect the fact that while we are on trips, that we stay in much nicer accomodations, eat and drink whatever we like without worrying about per diem, take days off or change the schedule to accomodate family and personal needs, have education and retirement benefits, and bonuses, and the possibility to advance according to your capabilities instead of seniority.

Maybe the CP at that job is just trying to keep airline pilots from "being miserable for not getting the right job." Perhaps he or she understands that this particular position involves duties that the previous airline pilots he has encountered do not enjoy. I have seen for myself, many airline types who absolutely cannot cope without knowing what their schedule is going to be for the next 2 weeks (I guess it is PTSD from having to sit reserve).

My guess is that he has been burned in the past by some desperate pilot who was furloughed and made all kinds of promises, and understood clearly what the pay and work conditions were going to be like, but bitched incessantly about those things once hired. Then as soon as he has recalled, fled back into the arms of his unfaithful (yet strangely attractive) mistress. :laugh:

There is nothing inherently wrong with 121 guys. It's just that in this market, an employer does not need to take that risk, especially when they can find people typed and enthusiastic to work. It costs alot of money to recruit, train, and relocate an employee. That the airlines have not figured this out, explains their current predicament.

 

[G4G5]

My issue was the seniority number. It's a BS system. Some corporates still have it but it's going the way of the Dodo. Work hard move up, get better pay, yada yada, want to sit around and take up space, theirs the door.

I remember being on probation, just cut loose out of IOE for a large top 3 carrier and we are on a STAR into PHX. The Captain I am with was also newly upgraded to the left seat. He blows through one speed restriction (after several reminders), then he's about to blow through an altitude restriction. The guy was all over the place. When we got on the ground (I actually had to hand him a form to fill out for my probation report) and the topic switched to my asking " what up dude?" He proceeds to tell me that he has not flown an aircraft in years other then his upgrade time. Due to a long FO stagnation period, he has been riding the bunk as a long haul relief pilot, movie critic for years. Flew with another Florida based guy while on probation who told me, "I haven't had to use de-ice fluid in 10+ years". I had to ask myself, what have I gotten into?

At airlines pilots hide on the same routes for years and the least experienced people fly the hardest trips. That doesn't fly at a corporate flight department and most aviation directors know this.

The other issue is technology, my world was rocked when I go from flying an all glass G5 EFIS around the globe only to discover that the MD80 I was going to spend the rest of my life in, only had 2 VOR's and 1 ADF. Airlines don't spend a dime on the aircraft once it's delivered unless the FAA mandates it. Aviation directors are not about to spend big bucks to bring an airline guy up to speed on LPV or EVS or SAAAR, most airline guys feel that if the airline wants me to know it then it's their job to train me on it. It doesn't work that way in corporate.

Last week I got into a discussion about EFB's with an airline guy who was an absolute moron.The guy was a 3 digit seniority number 777 FO who in all reality flew to maybe 4 destinations for years. I am trying to explain an Ipad efb to him and he starts taking the Pius attitude that just because he's on the company EFB committee he doesn't need anyone else's input, he knows it all. It's unconshionable for an airline guy to phathom that their are corporate guys already flying with EFB's logging hundreds of hours every month flying to all four corners of the globe.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Nonsense. I never said exceptions could not exist. Themes, however, do exist, and this one is common-enough.



Oh no, I'm afraid I do get it. I get it all too well, as it takes someone of my particular disposition to call these plays as they are. It is axiomatic that one's job should not define them.

In the corporate world, however, the job defines more people than otherwise. I've been made to listen to enough corporate pilot bullsh*t to fill the Grand Canyon.

Example for your consideration:

Corporate drivers arrive at the bar. Banefully uninteresting/uninspired talk of avionics/engine mod kits/etc. prevails. Work-related cellphone rings fill the air.

Airline pilots arrive at the bar. Normalcy in conversation prevails. The job is left behind, better subject matter is tabled--life is lived.

This observation is by no means comprehensive, however it has been my experience enough that this is the case the majority of the time.

LOL...that's just funny. You start by saying you aren't lumping people together, proceed to lump people together and then declare that you didn't lump people together. That's just hillarious. You do realize that saying you aren't doing does not preclude you from acutally doing it?

Certainly. I challenge nothing here.



I'm sorry to have to be the one to disestablish this fantastic illusion for you, but we're all numbers; be it employee or cost/benefit-analysis.

Maybe to the government, but there are fligth departments where they actually refer to you by your name and not your employee number.

Ah yes...only those who seek to sabotage an operation need protection. All management decisions are just, of course.

Depends on your point of view, doesn't it. If you believe you are owed a job and that your employer must provide you with all you need/want, then maybe you can find a reason to be upset with a managers decision. But, if you are of the belief that you are a contractor and that it is your responsiblity to make your client happy so that they choose to continue to purchase your skills, then you'd see that it is your decisions and actions that dictate your pay and employement...with a few exceptions.

Who does? Then again, we don't all live in BFE.

You asked why I wouldn't want to work for an airline, that is my reason.

Seems to me all of my airline friends work considerably less, as none of them are on the 30 on/0-off schedule I must endure.

Right, cause you fly every day of every month. I was on call 24/7/365 as well, but I only flew a couple weekends a month. When I needed or wanted to go out of town, I'd just let them know and that was that.

For example? I find nothing but the most conservative procedures/philosophies dominate airline SOP's.

The regional I flew for wanted the checklist completed inside the FAF. I don't like that. I prefer to have the aircraft configured and both pilots on the gauges in that critical phase of flight. More over, if it wasn't on the checklist, you couldn't do it. They called it "being a cowboy." So, if you wanted to turn on the anti/deice you had to run a checklist. If you had an engine quit, you couldn't attempt a relight.

Fair enough. That is, after all, why I and most everyone else got into this business. If I had the slightest inclination for any other brand of nonsense, I would have done something else.



Every time I hear this line (very nearly verbatim, ad infinitum) and apply the requisite philosophical considerations I come away more mystified than before.

It is most often used as a weak justification for the superiority of this type of flying, when it should be relegated to the same classificatory bag as "...well, I love that Lears have cup-holders built into the cockpit side walls, so given that I could see myself as flying nothing else..."

Make no mistake, everyone enjoys it (at least until they have to deal with the attendant bullsh*t of small town airport accomodations). As we have addressed that this profession should not define the man, however, should not the appropriate concerns be somewhere in the realm of QOL, money, and time-off to do the wife/girlfriend thing? Given these essentials, pax/crew relationships, small airport inconveniences, etc. be damned, no?



No question. This is FI, however, a forum of debate. :beer:

I'm not making some "weak justification for the superiority" of corporate aviation. I'm just telling you why I prefer it. If you are so unhappy with your position, why don't you join the airlines then?

 

[AA717driver]

G4G5--I know the types you're talking about. I will say that some I've flown with are really interested in what I did during furlough. Some are threatened by it (a small number but they're out there). Most are curious about the flying and the lifestyle.

The union EFB guy doesn't surprise me at all. Many in that union believe they invented, not just unions, but EVERYTHING.

Take care!

TC

 

[G4G5]

G4G5--I know the types you're talking about. I will say that some I've flown with are really interested in what I did during furlough. Some are threatened by it (a small number but they're out there). Most are curious about the flying and the lifestyle.

The union EFB guy doesn't surprise me at all. Many in that union believe they invented, not just unions, but EVERYTHING.

Take care!

TC

I have to tell you TC, it's that we know it all attitude that has me really befuddled. I can deal with the equipment, the schedules, just about everything except that holey then thou we invented the wheel here attitude.


This guy on the company EFB committee actually told me that no one was currently putting Jepps directly onto the display tubes. He got really offended when I showed him a picture of a G450/550/Falcon7x/Global Fusion cockpit. His answer to the batt life issue on the Ipad was to have every airline guy carry around a 100 hour mill spec battery with their Ipad. When I refereed him to the FAA's advisory circular on EFB's he actually had the balls to tell me and I quote, that does not apply to us. I told him that the we are smarter then the FAA attitude hasn't worked in the past (in fact its what was getting people killed around here)

Thats just one small sampling, that union is so far removed from reality that it's not even funny.

 

[Redtailer]

All this generalization on who has the better job, or who is the better pilot is BS!! It's all personal preference. If one doesn't like, well, it's your choice to go find a job you do enjoy. I happen to enjoy the corporate world for now, but that's not to say I will not go back to the airline world later on.

That's about the most true statement I have seen on here in a while. There are corporate jobs that really suck that cause folks never want to ever fly corporate again. There are airline jobs that make people feel the same way, but both have great companies too. Not to mention everything depends on the person involved. What sucks for me may not suck for you and so on.

Getting back to the original thread though there has been no mention of the fracs. I can say from first hand experience that they blur the line between airlines and corporate. They run airline type schedules complete with bidding and seniority yet they fly corporate pax. They also do A LOT of flying to the same airports over and over. Raise your hand if you have been stuck on the east coast shuttle for days praying to get a trip out west! Their safety cultures are more closely related to airlines because of the corporate memory in place. Overall they are still a young group, but that changes with time.

Just tired of the "my job is better than your job" stone throwing. What matters is that your job is good to you and only one person knows the real answer to that.

What matters is the safety culture which transcends simple feelings of how much you like your job. If you see no problem with busting minimums in your job for any reason then you might want to reconsider the safety in your job. Almost all airline pilots I know do not tolerate it. The same can't be said in the corporate world. The mins seem like a suggestion to some outfits. The minimums are put in place for a reason. If you are being gung ho and saying "Hey, I know I can fly closer for another 100ft safely" you are an idiot. If the airlines with millions of $$$ on the line with real teams of experts working on flying to lower minimums said it's not safe then WTF makes you think that you can do it safely?

Back in my early 135 days the guy that was training me to fly 135 in a Seneca viewed as normal to fly in to IMC without talking to ATC or filing IFR. He just refused to do it for whatever reason. In the airlines he would be bounced out on his backside. In the corporate world he would become Chief Pilot.

Those are the types of safety differences I am talking about. So to say airline pilots are not wanted is really code speak for "Don't tell us what's safe we have been doing this for years. Airline pilots are such crybabies."

 

[Gulfstream 200]

How long ago were your 135 days?

Again, yet another pretty off-the-wall view of corporate aviation from the mighty Boeing cockpit.

No corporate operation I know (even the low end 135 outfits) tolerate busting minimums or flying VFR in clouds for chrissakes.

Rest assured - Airline pilots are not shunned in the corporate world because of their commitment to Safety.....