"Airline types need not apply"

[BoilerUP]

I am just getting rid of all of the generalizations. Many of which are false.

What you fail to realize is you're airing PLENTY of generalizations about corporate pilots and corporate operations...many of which are ALSO false.

Yes, there are some cowboys out there that are more mission than safety-oriented....a very small and ever-dwindling number of people that make up a mere fraction of the corporate pilot population.

Yes, there HAVE been some accidents & incidents out there where corporate or charter pilots have done stupid things - the G3 in Aspen busting minimums, LR60 @ CAE that tried to abort after V1, the G2 at HOU that had the wrong frequency tuned, the Challengers not getting deiced seemingly everywhere, etc.

...but there also have been some accidents & incidents where airline pilots have done stupid things - attempted landing in microbursts, flying good airplanes into the ground, "4-1-0ing it dude", incompetent stall recoveries, not controlling the plane on a crosswind takeoff, etc.

BOTH segments have their operational warts - but you sure seem to be insinuating that corporate pilots as a group aren't safe and that's just as ignorantly wrong as corporate pilots saying airline pilots as a group make bad corporate pilots.

Yes, there are folks in the corporate world that have an ignorant, naive, stupid bias against airline pilots not founded on any type of fact. There's also folks that had an airline guy (typically furloughed) get hired after claiming they'd stay forever then bolted back to their airline job at their first opportunity, causing for better-or-worse the "reptuation" you're trying to disprove.

Let's face it - pretty much any pilot can fly pretty much any type of airplane, in pretty much any type of weather, in pretty much any country of the world. Airline pilots "do more with less" in terms of equipment; corporate pilots "do more with less" in terms of flight support.

Each segment is vastly different with greatly differing reasons for operating...comparing them for anything other than flying airplanes Point A to B is stupid.

 

[Sandhawk]

......

 

[Redtailer]

Both airline and corporate pilots have their fair share of accidents. My point was the fact that more times than not when there is an accident involving a GA aircraft it's usually due to a culture in that particular flight department. I said it before, there are great pilots and bad pilots on both sides. It's a matter of corporate safety culture that determines whether or not accidents happen.

The best way I have ever heard it explained was in AOPA magazine about a pilot that pushes the limits in GA. Eventually the pilot learns that he can fly below mins or launch in to marginal VFR to pick up IFR enroute. This pilot may never have an accident in his career, but eventually becomes CP or DO at a flight department. His rationale goes along the lines of "I did it safely so it is safe. I have never had an accident so you should be able to do it." That's where the problem comes in. Left unchecked that's how the culture of "Get the mission done" comes from. Most pilots in general will not go along with that thinking, but airline pilots specifically will be weeded out because they know airline pilots would raise a stink. Chances are that those are not the only regs being broken. Are the legends of Kalitta's 135 days not tales of lore? He is not alone.

I think across the board pilots from one side can do the job of the other can do it if they want. I have been on both sides of the fence. Had a blast flying corporate and 135. The real question is whether the company has a good safety culture and that's where the differences lie. With the airlines being villified by congressmen whose flights were delayed, lost bags or very public accidents the airlines are constantly under a microscope in regards to safety. Corporate flight departments are not under that same scrutiny. ISBAO is the equivalent of "OOooohh shiny." Lots of work to get, but ultimately means nothing.

Most departments are good, but some are just down right awful. Any airline guy going to fly corporate can do the job if he has decent work ethic and the job is explained to him before he is hired. Some jobs require that the pilot washes the airplane. I know a lot of corporate guys that won't do that. How long would a corporate guy stick around if he is pilot, aircraft washer/cleaner and lav dumper with mediocore pay? If he leaves then nobody says too much. If it's an airline guy they say we they made a mistake of hiring the airline guy.

Incidentally, one 135/91 dept I worked for had 15 pilots. 6 were former airline and we really didn't have any problems. Go figure. How many furloughed airline guys are there flying in the fractionals?

My whole point being that this whole business of saying that a department should not hire airline guys because of x,y,z is just BS.

 

[G4G5]

That sounds like AA. Hope you are not judging airline guys by their example... Their union guys are so screwed up they believe they invented the airplane. Can't tell them any different. Who was it that was still setting their altimeters so they read zero on landing up until a few years ago?

Your message is just as condescending though. Most of the tech stuff you have pointed out is applicable to newer aircraft and is taught at flight safety. I think just as many airline pilots can get it as corporate pilots. It's not rocket science. That's like me saying that we shouldn't hire corporate pilots because they only know how to fly with the help of EFIS and A/T. They shouldn't be hired because they can't handle flying a DC-9 to Cat II minimums with only 2 Vors and 1 NDB. Not to mention they would have trouble with a raw data NDB approach.

Actually I have flown for 2 of the big three so I can speak from experience. It's the nature of the beast, when you pay a pilot hourly they are always trying to maximize their pay, typically trying to fly less for more $$$. I understand the concept and have spent years doing it myself. It just doesn't translate well to the corporate world.

As far as technology, it's not even close. Sure we train at FSI or Simuflight but what I was referring to was the need to stay up on the latest industry trends. All one needs to do it look at the subjects of the threads on the corporate page. Their is a thread over here about having to write a chapter in an FOM about C-FOQA. You will never see a thread like that over on the Majors page, they are too busy arguing with some moron named General Lee.
Now you tell me what % of airline guys know and understand what FOQA is? In corporate you don't have a choice and that was my point. As a Director, I know my boss has asked "Have you operated HUD and EVS"? If so "explain to me what your EVS callouts are and what you are looking for"?
He would interview an airline guy, he's looking for quality no matter where it comes from. Can an airline guy find out the answer, sure he/she could but you need to get up off your rear and stay abreast of the latest industry trends on your own because you are not going to get them in the right seat of an MD80. In fact if an MD80 or any other low tech piece of equipment airline pilot came in for an interview and took the initiative to study the types of equipment that we fly and to know the answers to questions like the ones above, that individual would instantly move to the top of the pile based upon initiative alone.

But the reality is "most" airline guys think that"hey, I have 8000+ hours of acident free flying I am good to go, if they want me they will train me" while thats great it's just not enought to get a corporate job

 

[Redtailer]

.

As far as technology, it's not even close. Sure we train at FSI or Simuflight but what I was referring to was the need to stay up on the latest industry trends. All one needs to do it look at the subjects of the threads on the corporate page. Their is a thread over here about having to write a chapter in an FOM about C-FOQA. You will never see a thread like that over on the Majors page, they are too busy arguing with some moron named General Lee.
Now you tell me what % of airline guys know and understand what FOQA is? In corporate you don't have a choice and that was my point. As a Director, I know my boss has asked "Have you operated HUD and EVS"? If so "explain to me what your EVS callouts are and what you are looking for"?

See that's what I am talking about. If you have been in the corporate world long enough without any outside blood then you have no idea what you may be missing out on or what new procedures they may bring to the department.

I don't know a major airline that doesn't have a FOQA program in place. In fact I believe the program was developed in the airlines back in the early to mid 90s. As for the HUDs I know a couple of majors have them. I am sure Alaska 737s do. Not sure about the EVS in their airplanes though. Why would the airlines spend the money when they can do CAT IIIB Autolands in almost 0-0 weather? Not saying EVS isn't great, but just that it would be redundant to spend the money on it.

Airlines will always do 2 things better than any corporate flight department. 1. Save money and 2. Stay safe enough to keep pax from complaining.

For instance several airlines are using the Turb Plot info developed by NW. It's a great system to keep aircraft out of turbulence that actually works and saves money in the process. Delta has Attila for aircraft sequencing which they claim saves millions and mitigates delays. Airlines were using NRP long before most corporate departments ever heard of it which saves millions in direct routing. In fact there are still a lot of corporate departments in the dark on the that one as to what it is or how it actually works. Have an ASAP program yet? The list goes on.

How many Citations have a HUD/EVS? Beech? Bombardier? The fact is that MOST of the corporate world does not have that equipment either. Almost anything older than the PlaneView cockpits are on par with the airlines which is the majority of corporate jets and that will probably change when the 787 arrives or the other next generation airliners. So the playing field is level when it comes to knowing the equipment. I would even go so far as to say the airline guys have an advantage because they are already in tune with what the new FAA programs like FOQA, AQP, and others are before most corporate departments ever hear of them.

 

[BoilerUP]

The ProLine21 I have in my Citation is more advanced than the avionics in many, if not most, current-production airliners. The Bombardier C-Series is coming out with ProLine Fusion which will likely be the most advanced airliner avionics out there but it won't hit the market until the avionics will have been already in production for a couple years in the Embraer Legacy 450/500, Lear 85, new Globals, etc.

Most corporate flight departments don't utilize RNP because only because at least one INS is required for RNP and almost nothing smaller than a super-midsize jet has INS. While doing RF curved approaches via RNP would be nice (especially around terrain), WAAS LPV gets me lower than RNP minimums 95% of the time anyway. Maybe someday Garmin or Collins will come out with an affordable INS, or the FAA will recognize that INS isn't absolutely necessary for safe reduced navigation tolerances in modern, advanced avionics systems.

In this same vein, most corporate aircraft don't have ACARS like airliners do but an increasing number of midsize-and-up do have AFIS...but with XM business aircraft pilots have more real-time weather information at their fingertips than I never had with an ACARS unit.

ASAP? Doesn't really fit with 91 ops but SMS is working towards no-fault reporting along the same lines of a 121 ASAP program....without the all-to-often result of management/labor strife holding safety hostage.

Again...the segments are different; these comparisons can be made until the cows come home but they really don't mean anything...

 

[AA717driver]

The ProLine21 I have in my Citation is more advanced than the avionics in many, if not most, current-production airliners. The Bombardier C-Series is coming out with ProLine Fusion which will likely be the most advanced airliner avionics out there but it won't hit the market until the avionics will have been already in production for a couple years in the Embraer Legacy 450/500, Lear 85, new Globals, etc.

The avionics in the newer airliners is very good but airlines just don't change out aircraft like corporate departments do. It's rare for a fleet to be retired with less than 20 years on its youngest aircraft. Some of AA's MD80's are 25 years old and they still work.

The AA 757/767 fleet is getting flat panel displays. They aren't what I would have chosen (having used Planeview) but they work. Between the Pegasus FMC's and flat panel, they are as 'high functioning' as the avionics in the GV.

No, we don't have EVS but until I see a much improved version than I used on the G550, I don't miss it.

The 717, 737NG (also with a HUD) and 777 all have advanced displays--perhaps not state of the art but they'll keep working for 30 years flying 8 hours a day.

But we're back to the airline getting things as cheaply as they can vs. a 91 department having somewhat limited choices when a manufacturer offers an avionics suite.

TC

 

[Redtailer]

Hey BoilerUP

I was actually referring to NRP not RNP. RNP actually does apply to GPS aircraft, but RAIM took care of that. NRP is more of a routing tool so that you don't get vectors all over the place for traffic.

 

[BoilerUP]

So I made your point for you, eh?

Never heard of "NRP" before...

 

[aa73]

Hi folks... Sorry, didn't mean for this thread to degenerate into what it's become. My questions were sincere and meant no disrespect. I GREATLY respect the kind of flying you guys do compared to ours, along with all the extra work that we would consider "someone else's job." I guess we can define this thread as "good natured ribbing." Happy holidays to all... yep, another airline "perk", I will be blazing a contrail between IAD and SJU the morning of 12/25 while you all are opening presents with your families.
73

 

[Wankel7]

Are there many corporate flight departments that offer schedules?

 

[BoilerUP]

Are there many corporate flight departments that offer schedules?

Sure...though all the ones I'm personally aware of are larger operations with enough pilots to actually staff a "schedule" without having to rob days off on a regular basis to cover flying.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Are there many corporate flight departments that offer schedules?

The better ones sure do. At least some kind of schedule.

We have 3 pilots, and now have our schedule through August 2011. Luckily it does not change much. We all pick when we want off. For example, one has a home in Florida - he like winters slower as to spend a week or 2 at a time there...I'd rather work more in the winter and have late summer/fall vacations...etc etc. We are not "on call" but are expected to be avail to fly during business hours within a reasonable amount of time (3-4hrs?) If someone wants to be away or unavail - no problem just let the others know so they aren't the same. QOL remains good and everyone stays happy, nobody leaves. Imagine that. Most one airplane, 3 pilot outfits I know of seem to work the same.

Theres a HUGE difference between 2 and 3 pilots when it comes to very small departments. The "use a contractor" thing does not ever work IMO either. No owner like to spend $1000+ a day so YOU can have a day off. God forbid.

Two pilots can really lower QOL for obvious reasons. You start hearing crap like "cant you take your vacation during MX events"...yeah sure, my families life revolves around that! Nothing like justifying every day off. Its what it is - just know ahead of time what the deal is, and dont complain after. Its your job.

Larger departments often have you on the hook M-F and put a duty crew on for the weekends, the rest of you are free. No need to have 12 pilots on call, although some managers seem to get off on that...

 

[bizjet800]

Great discussion! I think the wedge between corporate and airline pilots was solidified on 9/11. Almost overnight there were thousands of airline guys on the street applying to their "fallback" corporate job. Corporate jobs weathered the stormI think most departments wouldn't touch an airline guys because they knew as soon as he was recalled, he'd be gone in a heartbeat. Airlines used to blow away any corporate job. Of course airlines have cut their pay and benefit packages that now mirrors corporate jobs a lot more.

 

[semperfido]

Are there many corporate flight departments that offer schedules?

yes, we have a great sched. i have had a schedule for the last 25 years.