Air France Flight Missing

[Amish RakeFight]

I wonder if we got anyone with some decent amount of A330 time here that could chime in? Just for discussion sake.

pppppprunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnne

 

[Erlanger]

Here's the weather data for the time of the Air France flight.

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

 

[Dornier 335]

Pretty self-explanatory, I thought, although probably not to someone who named himself after a stillborn German push-pull, but I digress.

I wasn't referring to your cute username but to your indecent somewhat xenophobic and derogative comment. With 34 years of age as you claim it is frightning to read a comment like this from an adult. I suggest you read Axel's well-put lines and think before you post your ignorance.

Regarding my username (if I need to explain myself) you better put in a little bit more research instead doing a quick read on Wikipedia. You sound so tough hiding behind your username, I'd like to meet you in the carpark next time I am in ORD or any other god-forsaken airport.

Moral of the story kid, use some common-sense and decency. Lots to learn you have ...

 

[Dornier 335]

...

I've done a fair amount of over-water flying. Many times late at night, the thunderstorms over the Atlantic and/or Caribbean are still towering to 50,000+ feet and have quite a bit of updraft/downdraft activity with heavy lightning but are NOT producing enough rain to give you a return on the radar. D*mn near stumbled into one in the Lear over the Gulf back in January coming back to Miami from Mexico, just a little over 100 miles offshore of Miami. I JUST happened to be looking outside (was looking for the outline of the coast at night - it's a nice sight) and the lightning highlighted enough of it for us to split the tops of two cells - we were at 43,000 feet, less than 10 miles from the cells when we caught it, the tops were another good 5k-7k above us. There was absolutely NOTHING on radar, at any tilt. We got lucky; if I had been inside the airplane continuously, we'd have bounced right into one of them.

Lear70 A similar thing happened to me. Not a night, during daylight flying mostly in IMC at 37,000 feet. I had checked the weather before we departed - no significant echos, turned the wx radar on with the turbulence mode (Honeywell) - no echos, and all of a sudden a return pops up right in front of us (less than 5 NM) impossible to circumnavigate. Plane went into a couple 90 degree banks, icing, etc. It really scared the sh!te outta me.

What's amazing is that no echos in convective activity can put you in severe turbulence. I don't remember that part in Archie Trembel's (spelling?) radar course...

 

[OurMoney1]

This is all speculation which, as some posters have noted, is useless until the prelim comes out, assuming they ever find the FDR and CVR.

From my rudimentary knowledge of Airbus systems and RAT knowledge from the 3 aircraft I've flown that have one, probably no radar with a complete electrical failure (which is the only thing that SHOULD deploy the RAT - complete loss of AC power to the retaining mechanism on the firing pin with Weight Off Wheels).

However, that's not what gets my attention. There's a couple critical things in that information about the avionics failure chain, IF it's correct, that happened SO fast (less than 4 minutes from first ACARS burst), I wouldn't lean towards a radar malfunction being out long enough to let them wander into a supercell t-storm:

1. ISIS failure. That's a BIG problem. Integrated Standby Instrumentation System. This is ALL you have if you lose everything else. For the ISIS to go or at least have to reset itself, you'd have to have a BAD electrical system spike. The ISIS gets its power directly from its own internal battery, continuously trickle charged through one of the aircraft's primary electrical AC Buses as long as they have power. Even if primary AC power is lost, the battery should provide uninterrupted power to the ISIS. For whatever reason, it appears it may have faulted.

2. Primary and Secondary aileron flight control damper unit failure (PRIM1 and SEC1) with a simultaneous ADIRU failure (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit - what gives the Primary Flight Display your attitude, VSI, airspeed, and heading readouts among other things) fault and almost simultaneously with the ISIS fault (within 90-120 seconds according to that data stream) means that they were at least momentarily (and possibly longer) without ANY instrumentation. No PFD, no ISIS, nada, zero, zilch with a flight control problem...

3. All of that while trying to fight an airplane that had reverted to alternate law on the flight control systems? That would be eye watering enough without anything like severe turbulence associated with a thunderstorm to compound the problem.

I've done a fair amount of over-water flying. Many times late at night, the thunderstorms over the Atlantic and/or Caribbean are still towering to 50,000+ feet and have quite a bit of updraft/downdraft activity with heavy lightning but are NOT producing enough rain to give you a return on the radar. D*mn near stumbled into one in the Lear over the Gulf back in January coming back to Miami from Mexico, just a little over 100 miles offshore of Miami. I JUST happened to be looking outside (was looking for the outline of the coast at night - it's a nice sight) and the lightning highlighted enough of it for us to split the tops of two cells - we were at 43,000 feet, less than 10 miles from the cells when we caught it, the tops were another good 5k-7k above us. There was absolutely NOTHING on radar, at any tilt. We got lucky; if I had been inside the airplane continuously, we'd have bounced right into one of them.

Until (unless) we get the FDR and CVR data back, we won't know anything, but my gut instinct tells me they wandered into one of those by pure accident, radar on but no return...

Very well composed Lear 70! This helped close many loop holes I had regarding the Airbus logic. God rest them all, it must have been hell.

 

[b19]

My prayers and condolences for all the families left behind.

I have flown over Brazil numerous times and crossed only a handful of times in that part of the Atlantic, you really are on your own because there just isn't much traffic out in front of you, to give you a heads up for the nasty stuff that doesn't paint. I have also spent quite a bit of time swearing at perfectly good radar units that weren't painting crap. Staring out in the distance for reflections from the lighting that would show glimpses at night of monsters that would bounce my fat ... right out of the seat. I can't help but think there by the grace of God go I. So please be respectful of our fellow pilots, for I am sure they were doing everything humanly possible. May all those left behind know peace in their hearts.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You know what, when ALPA puts out the fund for the lost crew members, I say all of us donate to it. Even a buck(euro) or two from everyone on this site will help these families.

Just remember a lot of people lost their lives, in whatever the probable cause turns out to be, in a horrible accident.

 

[instructordude]

Has "Sully" made any comments regarding the crash. I would not be suprised if he is asked to join the investigation due to his experience in and out of the Airbus fleet.

 

[flyboyike]

I wasn't referring to your cute username but to your indecent somewhat xenophobic and derogative comment. With 34 years of age as you claim it is frightning to read a comment like this from an adult. I suggest you read Axel's well-put lines and think before you post your ignorance.

Regarding my username (if I need to explain myself) you better put in a little bit more research instead doing a quick read on Wikipedia. You sound so tough hiding behind your username, I'd like to meet you in the carpark next time I am in ORD or any other god-forsaken airport.

Moral of the story kid, use some common-sense and decency. Lots to learn you have ...

I don't sound near as tough as you, now, do I? And if you are the summity of common sense and decency, the world is in real trouble.

 

[Andy Neill]

I have been pleased that the news reports have been fairly devoid of inane comments up to this point. And then I read this:

“The airplane was flying at 500 mph northeast and the air is coming at them at 100 mph,” said AccuWeather.com expert senior meteorologist Henry Margusity. “That probably started the process that ended up in some catastrophic failure of the airplane.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31057560/

 

[flyboyike]

I am inches away however from giving flyboy a short term ban for a combination of reasons not the least of which is inappropriate language.

Why am I being threatened with a ban for posting a (some say) tasteless joke, while those who resort to name-calling and open threats of violence in carparks are given a pass?

Oh yeah, it's because I drive an RJ, my bad.

 

[Lear70]

Why am I being threatened with a ban for posting a (some say) tasteless joke, while those who resort to name-calling and open threats of violence in carparks are given a pass?

Oh yeah, it's because I drive an RJ, my bad.

No, it's because you won't shut up and apologize for the tasteless comments when you REALLY NEED to shut up (a lesson I learned the hard way). It doesn't have anything to do with the aircraft you fly, it's about respect for the deceased and knowing when to STFU and leave well enough alone.

The other guys need to stop it as well (and yes, parking lot fights are juvenile, too). This is a useful thread, I don't want to see it locked, so knock it off.

p.s. If I was a mod you'd be locked out right now for 30 days and the other guys would receive a PM warning to quit with the fighting/language/threats and leave well enough alone or they'll get a FI vacation, too. You want to sling mud and make tasteless jokes on a thread that doesn't involve loss of life? Go knock yourself out. It doesn't belong here.

 

[flyboyike]

p.s. If I was a mod you'd be locked out right now for 30 days and the other guys would receive a PM warning to quit with the fighting/language/threats and leave well enough alone or they'll get a FI vacation, too. You want to sling mud and make tasteless jokes on a thread that doesn't involve loss of life? Go knock yourself out. It doesn't belong here.

Well, you're not a mod, so I wasn't asking you. Perhaps you'd do well to heed your own advice.

 

[HA25]

Why am I being threatened with a ban for posting a (some say) tasteless joke, while those who resort to name-calling and open threats of violence in carparks are given a pass?

Oh yeah, it's because I drive an RJ, my bad.

search a guy named TJSatter here: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=121837&page=2

And you will see that it's not just RJ drivers that aren't appreciated when they make jokes or second guess a fresh accident while peoples wives and husbands are dying or dead.. I knew him from my time with Gemini and I can tell you he was not well liked there and his attitude has already lost him a good contract job subsequent to Gemini.

 

[flyboyike]

search a guy named TJSatter here: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=121837&page=2

And you will see that it's not just RJ drivers that aren't appreciated when they make jokes or second guess a fresh accident while peoples wives and husbands are dying or dead.. I knew him from my time with Gemini and I can tell you he was not well liked there and his attitude has already lost him a good contract job subsequent to Gemini.

With all due respect, the dead are dead. They will stay dead no matter what is or isn't said on this or any other forum. It seems to me some people have a hard time with that seemingly elementary concept.

 

[HA25]

As for the question about A330 time / experience... it's more or less similar to the A320.. the type rating was a 8 hour sim and 12 hour classroom difference mainly focusing on limitations and other differences that relate to size.. systems, avionics and other major components are similar to the 320.

 

[LaGarbage Man]

For God's sake just ban the dip wad !!!
He just doesn't get it and never will. A thirty day vacation for him wont't do much for his obvious character flaws but it will allow the rest of us to discuss this tragedy with the respect that it deserves.
All in favor ?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

He already knows he's gonna be a comair lifer. That's reason enough to be disgruntled.

 

[Sean]

Air France 447

My friend's mother was on Flt. 447, please everyone, keep her in your thoughts.

God Bless--

 

[SennaP1]

He already knows he's gonna be a comair lifer. That's reason enough to be disgruntled.

+1, Like I said he deserves the airline he flies for.

 

[taiar]

RIP to those lost on AF447, and prayers and thoughts be with the families and friends.

As for the A330 systems. The 330 has your normal 3 GENs 1 per Engine and the APU. In addition you have an EMER GEN. The EMER GEN can be driven by either the Green HYD sys, or the RAT.

In scenario A, Hydraulically driven, the EMER GEN will provide power to PRIM 1, SEC 1,2. So you maintain flight control. ADR1 is powered, so are IR 1,3. As for the RADAR, it is still powered as long as the EMER GEN is powered by the Green HYD source. But if the motors are not running, HYD GREEN drops off line, and EMER GEN is then powered by the RAT. In this case the RADAR becomes INOP and falls under the INOP SYSTEMS list.

In Alternate Law the Aircraft is very flyable...you just give up a few protections. In direct law just becomes a conventional airplane, not challenging, you just have to readjust to how you use to fly. And worst case scenario, MAN PITCH you just use the rudders gently for roll and the trim wheel for manual pitch.

MANUAL PITCH is OK when the shiny side up is UP, but in a JET upset scenario, it can get ugly very fast. The MAN PITCH mode was not designed to fly the plane to a landing... it was designed to keep controllability until you can reset and bring back a PRIM or a SEC online and go back to Direct , ALTERNATE or Normal Law depending on how many failures you have at hand.

In any case, we now just sit and wait till the pros pull what they can pull out and reconstruct what happened with FACTs not speculations. Mean while we keep everyone in our thoughts and prayers.

God Bless.

T

 

[onewithwings]

Oh yeah, it's because I drive an RJ, my bad.

Has NOTHING to do with equipment type.

Re-read your posts. Many (myself included) find them offensive. This thread is meant to pay respect to the many lives that were lost as a result of this tragedy.

HAVE SOME RESPECT!

 

[freightdogfred]

Gonna have to call BS on this one... It's impossible to have lightning without precip/ice, which is what causes the lightning and will give a return on any functioning radar. I'll buy your radar in the Lear did not show a return (it was malfunctioning, no other way) but to suggest there was "not enough precip to give a return" is preposterous. Sorry, but that's Meteorology 101.

RIP to the crew and passengers of this tragedy.

 

[HA25]

Has NOTHING to do with equipment type.

Re-read your posts. Many (myself included) find them offensive. This thread is meant to pay respect to the many lives that were lost as a result of this tragedy.

HAVE SOME RESPECT!

Yeah, I've tried to show him the light and explain to him why he's out of line, and rather than apologize and make good he continues to be disrespectful..

 

[Lear70]

Gonna have to call BS on this one... It's impossible to have lightning without precip/ice, which is what causes the lightning and will give a return on any functioning radar. I'll buy your radar in the Lear did not show a return (it was malfunctioning, no other way) but to suggest there was "not enough precip to give a return" is preposterous. Sorry, but that's Meteorology 101.

RIP to the crew and passengers of this tragedy.

Yeeeaahh, I'm gonna have to, sort of, disagree with you there. Yeah. Because I was there, and had that airplane all week, radar was functioning perfectly.

The updrafts and downdrafts alone can produce enough friction from the dust and moisture particles inside the cloud matter to produce a static discharge from cloud to cloud, yet still not carry enough DENSITY of water for the radar to report back anything than a faint green or yellow return, and certainly not the large-core yellow, red, or magenta returns you'd normally associated with a mature thunderstorm.

I've experienced EXACTLY that, more than once, with a radar that otherwise worked flawlessly. A thunderstorm doesn't have to be pouring down rain to produce lightning. It also doesn't have to be pouring down rain (mature stages) to be deadly.

I refuse to believe an experienced crew such as this deliberately and willingly penetrated a thunderstorm of that magnitude, and there was NOTHING to indicate a radar malfunction prior to the initial ACARS bursts. Period. So, either:

a. Something else besides a t-storm took the plane out of the sky and now we're back to sabotage / terrorist act kind of ideas.
b. The pilots had a malfunctioning radar that didn't report the cell and didn't trigger an associated ACARS fault message and they flew into it unknowingly (and we're creating a new, COMPLETELY unfounded hypothesis with that idea with no data to support it), or
c. The cell was there, but not carrying enough moisture to paint as anything other than light or moderate and they flew through it not knowing what was about to hit them.

p.s. Maybe you should re-take Meteorology 101 to understand the intensity of the return is in direct correlation to the intensity of the precipitation contained within the cell, and severe updrafts and downdrafts CAN occur both before and after the cell is in its mature stage and has depleted or has not yet stored a large volume of moisture.

 

[mesaserf]

I had an AWA guy on my jump a few years back that described an electrical problem he experienced in the A320. He said that they had some kind of generator fault that caused a cascade failure with a total loss of flight deck instrumentation (The CRT’s) except for the peanut gyro. This included most of the flight deck lighting. I do not remember if he said the RAT failed to deploy.

He also mentioned that there was some kind of change to the flight control command that made any control imputes more sensitive than what was normal. I can’t remember all the details.

Somehow this cascade failure/power surge also caused one of the FADEC computers to shut down an engine. This happed to them at night, in IMC while descending. He made it sound like Airbus was very keen to keep this situation from the public eye.

Just imagine this same scenario while experiencing moderate turbulence. Or trying to pick your way through level 5 thunder storms in the middle of the Atlantic.

One thing for sure, Airbus will be at Def Con 4 in trying to pin the blame on anybody else but them.

God Speed...

​

 

[clippyrip]

Not one radio call from 35,000 feet all the way down. Electrical issues and a loss of cabin pressure. Well, lets see.....what causes electrical issues IN A THUNDERSTORM? What causes loss of cabin pressure when IN A THUNDERSTORM with reported SEVERE TURBULENCE?

Lightning and a breach in the fuselage somewhere.

If they lost both engines and had to ditch in the dark they would have been better off....rather than have electrical issues on a fly-by-wire aircraft and loss of cabin pressure in heavy turbulence. At least they would have been able to talk on the radio all the way down.

No radio calls from a plane that crashes, 99% of the time means something VERY BAD and/or SUDDEN happened. Pretty simple. Does it really take an experienced accident investigator to figure that out? NO.

And like I said yesterday.....today they will find a debris field....and they did.

That plane came apart. There's all kinds of crap floating around.

Doesn't mean the beginning wasn't from massive hail, or a friggin meteor even. Maybe a mid air collision with a military aircraft. Maybe a flock of Condors were out for a stroll in a thunderstorm at 35,000 feet.

Whatever it was, it was catastrophic. What causes that...catastrophies.

And talk about jumping to conclusions....why would they rule out sabotage. What moron would rule that out this early?

You remind me of the mentally slow kid in class that keeps talking while everyone snickers. Meanwhile he has no clue what is so funny.

 

[BLing]

In my experience, Air France crews have always proven to be highly trained professionals and extreemly friendly. When my company was too cheap to buy me first or businiess class tickets to and from my contracts, Air France crews always upgraded me as I walked on. Keep in mind as a contract pilot, I never travel in uniform, almost never have a company ID as Im either going to a new airline or coming back from a contract that ended and had to turn in my ID. Anyway, a crew member would notice my carry on that said Flight Crew and my flight bag. Id be asked if I was a pilot, Id say yes and make small talk before continuing onto cattle class. The Captain would be notified without my knowledge. After sitting down, I would be asked to grab my things and come up front as the Captain has requested I sit in first class. This happened everytime I was not already booked up front. They are some of the most professional crews I have come accross that I have the utmost respect for.

Now, the FAs are professional on the job, but not on an overnight in Central Africa! I had me some fun with them on their overnights during my time contracting over there!!!

This is a horrible accident. Hopefully something can be learned from it and the blame not placed on the crew.

 

[OneBadLT123]

CNN had a live press conference just a minute ago from France. But no new information though, just the usual media Q & A. Nothing we all don't already know. Wreckage found, deep water so its difficult, no indication of problem before the flight. 4 teams sent from France. MX crew, Ops crew, Airbus crew, and forgot the last one...

 

[Dornier 335]

Gonna have to call BS on this one... It's impossible to have lightning without precip/ice, which is what causes the lightning and will give a return on any functioning radar. I'll buy your radar in the Lear did not show a return (it was malfunctioning, no other way) but to suggest there was "not enough precip to give a return" is preposterous. Sorry, but that's Meteorology 101.

RIP to the crew and passengers of this tragedy.

I beg to differ. I got hit by lightning really badly a few years back; in a hold into PHL. No echos on radar, at 14,000, night, SAT around 0C. Cloud wasn't taller than 17,000 and lightning damaged the COM2 antenna pretty good.