Age 65

[realityman]

Ah Hamburger, now I think I understand your point a bit better. Part of what you'r saying is the same thing as what Imacdog just said. And it is exactly what I'm talking about when with perspective. I just didn't realize it until now.

I love aviation. Flying for a career is heaven to me. When I come home, I have my own planes to fly. Oshkosh is my mecca. I truly enjoy sharing it with my family. My friends. People I don't know who want to know more about it. Promoting it amongst the high school set (I do the occasional presentation on aviation for local high schools). Flying planes for a living is NOT a hardship for me. It's a priviledge. One I've worked hard to earn. So my point is, I'm seeing the extra five years of staying in the cockpit (at the airlines) as a major plus, and victory against age discrimination. You and some others see it as you now HAVE to stay in the cockpit another 5 years. I see it as being handed a bonus, you see it as being handed a sentence.

Okay, that's fine. We just had a very interesting discussion along similar lines on our own union boards. It's a good discussion. And nobody was right or wrong. It was all individual perspective. (The discussion was actually about whether this job is worth it or not)

I'm not telling you what to feel. Be pissed. Be angry. Be happy. Whatever. You feel how you do about it.

Rules change. Sometimes those caught in the transition don't get the best deals (ask some of our Netjets pilots who were making bypass pay and what happened with our '05 contract). One thing I've learned about dealing with a large group as opposed to individual deals is that you simply won't make everyone happy. You feel that you now HAVE to work an extra five years. I'd bet there are plenty of F/O's who are glad they don't have to hang it up at 60 anymore. What about the flying public? They now have the experience remaining in the cockpit an extra five years. (yeah we can argue AGAIN about the competency of the older guys, but my experience has been that these guys are mostly excellent, with only a few bad apples here and there. About the same as the number of bad apples I find in the younger guys too.). And what if, in the course of life, you have some hardships that cost you (financially) a bunch? Maybe having the ability to work longer in your chosen career, instead of having to start over in something new at 60 years old, will turn out to be a good thing.

I see your point. We just aren't going to agree. I think this is a good thing that has expanded the potential of the job for most people. It's opened a few doors that were previously closed.

 

[imacdog]

I would think that most people, when faced with the reality that they have to work longer to make the same money they would have in the first place, would consider it "have" to. Just don't try to spin it like the airline FO's didn't get the short end of the stick with the implementation of this rule. Since I don't work for an airline, I can consider myself pretty impartial.

 

[realityman]

I don't work for the airlines either. I just have a different view on it. What I think is, some of the F/O's will view this as a bad thing, and some will view it as a good thing. The individual's situation, personal goals, and driving motivations will determine how this is viewed.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Thanks, realityman. You saved me a very long multi-quoted reply.

Hamburger's argument boils down to "I got screwed." And that's the entitlement mentality in a nutshell.

 

[Hamburger]

I love aviation. Flying for a career is heaven to me..

That is great and you're a lucky guy. Did that play into choosing your current job instead of one where you knew you would have to retire at 60 when you got hired?
I also understand that the guys behind me, like those high school kids may enjoy it as much as we do and deserve their turn at the plate.
Nothing is preventing me from participating in aviation after retirement at any age.

I truly enjoy sharing it with my family. My friends.

I enjoy my family and friends a great deal. I never get to see them because I'm always at work.

I would think that most people, when faced with the reality that they have to work longer to make the same money they would have in the first place, would consider it "have" to.

Precisely. If working more for the same money is such a 'privilege', go in on your days off and fly an extra trip every month for free.

 

[Hamburger]

Thanks, realityman. You saved me a very long multi-quoted reply.

Hamburger's argument boils down to "I got screwed." And that's the entitlement mentality in a nutshell.

Actually it's everybody who wasn't a captain at the time of the ruling got screwed.

You a Captain or an F.O.?

 

[realityman]

That is great and you're a lucky guy. Did that play into choosing your current job instead of one where you knew you would have to retire at 60 when you got hired? Nope. I had a goal to fly for the airlines. The path I found myself on put me somewhere else. But it worked out fine. I find that if you get rid of preconceptions, things become a lot more free-flowing and easier to take. by the way, my current position at NJA wasn't originally an especially good job. Rather than complain that we all got screwed, we (our entire group of pilots) worked hard to make it a better job, without actually forcing anyone out.
I also understand that the guys behind me, like those high school kids may enjoy it as much as we do and deserve their turn at the plate. Why do they 'deserve' it? What, exactly, makes them so deserving? Just because they chose aviation as a career? So? Everyone 'deserves' something just because they WANT it? In that case, I deserve to win the lottery. LOL! And why doesn't the older pilot 'deserve' to work longer? Just because someone else thinks they have 'enough'?
Nothing is preventing me from participating in aviation after retirement at any age. True dat. Much as I love aviation, I'd still like to retire before I die. But it's nice to know that I have the option of working if I need/want to.
I enjoy my family and friends a great deal. I never get to see them because I'm always at work. Whole other topic here. I'd like to see my family more too. But I can't say that I 'never' see them. Considering my profession, I feel pretty lucky to have a good balance in my life with that.

Precisely. If working more for the same money is such a 'privilege', go in on your days off and fly an extra trip every month for free.

Okay.

 

[Hamburger]

Go ahead and tell yourself that having the same opportunity as every pilot alive is being 'entitled' but taking more for themselves and sticking their children with the bill isn't being greedy. It's in Baby Boomer DNA. Nobody else 'deserves' what they can take from them.

Okay.

Go ahead and work an extra trip every month on your days off for free for the next five years. If you don't actually pick up the phone and do it, then you don't believe your own BS.
Have fun.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Realityman,

Guys like Humbuger are so self-involved they don't understand that this profession is fluid. Your upgrade can be advanced or delayed depending on the economy, the price of oil, 9-11 or a whole host of circumstances beyond your control. There are guys who upgraded in 18 months at my outfit. F/Os today are looking at 10-11 years to upgrade. Does that make the 18 month upgrade guys bad or greedy? Not hardly.

However, Humbuger apparently believes that he is OWED HIS upgrade the date he expected it the day he got hired.

As you've pointed out numerous times, life (especially airline life) ain't fair. Play the cards you're dealt. Tantrums don't work and they only make you look foolish.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. Its a waste of your time and it infuriates the pig.

 

[Hamburger]

Your upgrade can be advanced or delayed depending on the economy, the price of oil, 9-11 or a whole host of circumstances beyond your control.

Very true. However, this was very much in the control of a specific segment of pilots. The very same segment that got it shot down for decades, when it would've hurt them........Until they upgraded and could cash in

However, Humbuger apparently believes that he is OWED HIS upgrade the date he expected it the day he got hired.

Nope. I've said time and again. It is what it is. Life isn't fair. So be it.

I never say a word until some a$$hole calls me greedy when I have to work an extra five years or lose hundreds of thousands of dollars so that he can line his pockets.

I still notice you refuse to answer.

 

[realityman]

Go ahead and tell yourself that having the same opportunity as every pilot alive is being 'entitled' but taking more for themselves and sticking their children with the bill isn't being greedy. It's in Baby Boomer DNA. Nobody else 'deserves' what they can take from them.
Not sure who said this. It wasn't me. I'm not a baby boomer and I'm 'only 41. But addressing the first sentence in the above quote, every pilot DOES have the same opportunity today as those that came before. Remember, many of those that came before had different setbacks in their careers, and have faced many changing variables in this industry, not all of them to their benefit. The same applies to today's pilots. This is just one of those things that MAY not work to their advantage (I say 'may', because I've already pointed out that this could, in fact, work to the benefit of some of the younger guys.)

Go ahead and work an extra trip every month on your days off for free for the next five years. If you don't actually pick up the phone and do it, then you don't believe your own BS.
Have fun.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything I've said. Not sure where you got the idea that I said anyone should work for free. Anytime I work extra for NJA (which is very rarely) I assure you I get paid quite well for it. By the way, you still haven't answered my question: Why, exactly, do the new generation of pilots 'deserve' spots with the airlines? And why, exactly, do you feel the older pilots don't 'deserve' to continue flying if they can?

My 'BS' is no more so than anything coming from someone who is basically saying "Get out of my seat. I deserve it more than you because I'm young."

 

[Hamburger]

IWhy, exactly, do the new generation of pilots 'deserve' spots with the airlines?

Say tomorrow, all the Captains at Netjets sit down with management and used their greater numbers to give themselves a pay raise and the FO's a pay cut. At the core, that's what we're talking about.
After all, those FO's didn't do anything to 'deserve' their pay rate, right? Yeah, I know that the pay rate has been set in stone for decades and the Captain's got it when they were FO's, but now they 'deserve' more.
Those FO's have no reason to be upset, right? That's just the nature of the business.
The worst is when one of those greedy, entitled FO's, who has to work to work overtime to break even, has the audacity to not tell the Captain he's special and 'deserves' a raise.

All kinds of uncertainty out there for everyone, but only one segment faces that uncertainty by eating their young. This isn't economy, this isn't fuel price, this isn't 9/11. It's pilots taking from pilots.

My 'BS' is no more so than anything coming from someone who is basically saying "Get out of my seat. I deserve it more than you because I'm young."

That's exactly what every one of them said when they were FO's.
But now they're special and 'deserve' more.
"Give me your money because there are more of us, and we're special."

You've boiled it down to: "you lose, that's the breaks, suck it up. They've got the numbers, boo hoo for you."
You're right. Absolutely.

Just don't try to pretend that five years of my life or hundreds of thousands of dollars are no big deal. Don't try to tell me how lucky I am to have the 'privilege' of working an extra five years for free. Don't try to tell the guy who just wanted the same deal that every pilot before him got (nothing more, nothing less) is greedy while the guy who took more isn't.
It's just not going to fly.

CEO pillages the pension; do you get upset at the CEO or do you call the pilots entitled and greedy for thinking they 'deserved' anything in this uncertain industry?

 

[Fubijaakr]

By the way, you still haven't answered my question: Why, exactly, do the new generation of pilots 'deserve' spots with the airlines? And why, exactly, do you feel the older pilots don't 'deserve' to continue flying if they can?

Because he can't. Because Humbuger wants what YOU have. And he isn't shy about saying so.

My 'BS' is no more so than anything coming from someone who is basically saying "Get out of my seat. I deserve it more than you because I'm young."

The problem with youngsters like Humbuger is that he grew up watching "My Sweet Sixteen" on MTV. He wants it all...RIGHT NOW! So everyone holding a left seat needs to get the puck out of his way so he can have what he honestly believes is rightfully his.

After all, you started working when the retirement Age was 60. I guess you lost the contract you signed that specifically stated you were legally required to retire at the statuatory age in force at the time you were hired.

I guess using that reasoning, all 18 year olds should be allowed to continue drinking when their state raises the legal age to 21. After all, they were legally drinking at 18 so they should be legally entitled when the age goes up.

Some examples from his own mouth:

It's pilots taking from pilots.

Don't try to tell me how lucky I am to have the 'privilege' of working an extra five years for free.

Don't try to tell the guy who just wanted the same deal that every pilot before him got (nothing more, nothing less) is greedy....

Boiled down, its "I WANT MINE!!!"

From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of GREED

: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed

 

[Hamburger]

I guess using that reasoning, all 18 year olds should be allowed to continue drinking when their state raises the legal age to 21. After all, they were legally drinking at 18 so they should be legally entitled when the age goes up.

Perfect example! Are those 18 year olds "greedy and entitled"? Did the 21 year olds do something special to 'deserve' to drink at 18? If it were the 21 year olds who fought and got the drinking age changed (after they turned 21 of course), you don't think the 18 year olds have a right to be pissed? The 18 year olds haven't lost anything because they can drink when they're 90, right?

Because Humbuger wants what YOU have. And he isn't shy about saying so.

Wrong. I want what you and everyone before you HAD, before you took more.

Definition of GREED: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something

It's not me that wants more. All I want is the same. No more and no less than you and everyone before you had.

Boiled down, its "I WANT MINE!!!"

Whereas for you guys, boiled down it's "I WANT MINE AND YOURS TOO!"

 

[Fubijaakr]

Sorry, Humbuger, I've got to take my own advice.

You can't teach a pig to sing. Its a waste of your time and it infuriates the pig.

And you're the pig, son. Grow up. It is what it is. Now, gear up.