Age 65

[cldsfr79]

I consider going to work to be an interruption of my free time....

I'm going to view this quote from a different point of view:
I think it's this quote when it comes out of a "retireies" mouth that burns a lot of younger guys. Here, a younger guy is eager, wanting to move up the seniority list, wanting to fly larger aircraft, want to be in command (wanting a better life style with more money); why aren't they? Because they see an older guy, who got pushed out of the airlines because the law told them to retire there and now they are still flying, and most do it for fun and that it does "interrupt their free time" (and yes some are hard luck cases that need to work but I have flown with enough of them to hear about their summer home and winter home and boats they have, planes they own, toys they want etc). Most younger guys, until they become jaded, like their jobs and enjoy being pilot and want a career progression.

But I'll admit, this hostility over retirement has a lot to do with jealousy, and someone eluded to the baby-boomers getting a much better ride than their parents and a lot better ride than the younger generation.

See, most these retired guys got hired somewhere at the twilight of airline regulation and the big boom in the early 80s, after deregulation. Most didn't even warm up their FO seat before being handed a captain's stripe. Given that, most guys flew their entire career as a captain. Even the guys who got hit by careers with bankrupt airlines and furloughs still swiftly made it up through the ranks at different airlines because of the expansion of the industry. Then these guys started retiring and flowed over to the fractionals and other private industries. When they came, the fractionals and other industries were craving pilots and once again they were handed their 4th stripe walking into the door and a choice of airplane.

Now to view the younger guys. Most the majors haven't hired in a decade+ and the ones that have only hired hundreds when thousands wanted a job. Most majors have downsized and flying has gone to the regionals. If you were "lucky enough" to get on early at a regional, you're a captain now of your shinny 50 seat jet. If not you are an FO making nothing with a 10 year upgrade at some regionals. These captains want to move on, but they can't because there are not jobs.

Now looking at the fractionals, lots of young guys came over looking for a new career, something exciting, something new. Maybe they were even hoping for a quick upgrade. Just like the airline industry, things came to a halt. No upgardes but even downgrades and furloughs. And the frustrating thing for them is that because there is no growth anymore in the industry the furloughees have no idea when they will get their job back and the FOs don't know when they are going to upgrade because they don't know when the retireies will leave. They even look at the guys in their late 40s and early 50s and gasp at the thought that they may be here 20+ more years.

So here you have a young guy trying to have a career in the new world of aviation. A world of no growth, no jobs, and possible career long FO positions.

I'm not being "Johnny rain cloud", but this thought process is based off of historical insight and the future based on current and short term future projections.

And you wonder why the young guy asks the old guy "sir, when are you planning on retiring"?

Enough said.

 

[Helmsalee]

Just for another point of view, it took me 21 years to make captain. When I got hired in '76 they told us it would be less than 5 years. Two mergers and a bankruptcy kind of changed that. Another bankruptcy after I made captain added to the retirement problem. True, some timed it great. But look at the guys that came to the fracs 7-10 years ago to build time. They made captain quickly and are enjoying a lot of seniority. Many of them are barely 40 and can look forward to a pretty good career. My point is that no age group has had it better than another. It's timing (read luck) that makes the difference.

Two quotes from my father (long dead):

"Find a job you love and you'll never have to work."

"Fair has nothing to do with it. It's business."

Think about it.

Helm

 

[T-1GUY]

Same here, but not working puts a considerable dent in what you can do with that free time.

The last year has proven to me I'd be an excellent lottery winner! Time to go back to work though...

I hear you. I have taken the past year off from aviation (not by choice). I have to say, I don't really miss it. I can find plenty of things to do with my life outside of flying. I feel sorry for these guys who have no life outside of flying a metal tube. Who wants to do the same job until they are 65? I am too easily bored. I am constantly looking for new challenges....

This board cracks me up a lot of the time.

Pilots are just a bunch of bitchy little girls...:laugh:

 

[T-1GUY]

I'm going to view this quote from a different point of view:
I think it's this quote when it comes out of a "retireies" mouth that burns a lot of younger guys. Here, a younger guy is eager, wanting to move up the seniority list, wanting to fly larger aircraft, want to be in command (wanting a better life style with more money); why aren't they? Because they see an older guy, who got pushed out of the airlines because the law told them to retire there and now they are still flying, and most do it for fun and that it does "interrupt their free time" (and yes some are hard luck cases that need to work but I have flown with enough of them to hear about their summer home and winter home and boats they have, planes they own, toys they want etc). Most younger guys, until they become jaded, like their jobs and enjoy being pilot and want a career progression.

But I'll admit, this hostility over retirement has a lot to do with jealousy, and someone eluded to the baby-boomers getting a much better ride than their parents and a lot better ride than the younger generation.

See, most these retired guys got hired somewhere at the twilight of airline regulation and the big boom in the early 80s, after deregulation. Most didn't even warm up their FO seat before being handed a captain's stripe. Given that, most guys flew their entire career as a captain. Even the guys who got hit by careers with bankrupt airlines and furloughs still swiftly made it up through the ranks at different airlines because of the expansion of the industry. Then these guys started retiring and flowed over to the fractionals and other private industries. When they came, the fractionals and other industries were craving pilots and once again they were handed their 4th stripe walking into the door and a choice of airplane.

Now to view the younger guys. Most the majors haven't hired in a decade+ and the ones that have only hired hundreds when thousands wanted a job. Most majors have downsized and flying has gone to the regionals. If you were "lucky enough" to get on early at a regional, you're a captain now of your shinny 50 seat jet. If not you are an FO making nothing with a 10 year upgrade at some regionals. These captains want to move on, but they can't because there are not jobs.

Now looking at the fractionals, lots of young guys came over looking for a new career, something exciting, something new. Maybe they were even hoping for a quick upgrade. Just like the airline industry, things came to a halt. No upgardes but even downgrades and furloughs. And the frustrating thing for them is that because there is no growth anymore in the industry the furloughees have no idea when they will get their job back and the FOs don't know when they are going to upgrade because they don't know when the retireies will leave. They even look at the guys in their late 40s and early 50s and gasp at the thought that they may be here 20+ more years.

So here you have a young guy trying to have a career in the new world of aviation. A world of no growth, no jobs, and possible career long FO positions.

I'm not being "Johnny rain cloud", but this thought process is based off of historical insight and the future based on current and short term future projections.

And you wonder why the young guy asks the old guy "sir, when are you planning on retiring"?

Enough said.

The sad part is this that I fall into the "20 Year FO" category" and that I am still in my early forties...:crying:

 

[Helmsalee]

That's the way it goes, T-1. For comparison, I flew with a captain early in my career who was hired at a major airline at 21. Things were moving then and he held a captains bid very soon. In fact, he had to wait almost a year to reach 23 so he could get an ATP. He was less than 3 years older than me. He flew captain at a major airline for 37 years and was number 1 seniority for over 6. He was a great guy to fly with and always understood how lucky he was. When I was hired at National in '76, I thought everything was perfect. In hindsight, I should have gone to American 3 months later when they offered. It's not how good you are, or what age group you are in, but luck and timing. You make your choices based on what you know at the time. Sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. Live with it. Really, you have no alternative. You can be bitter or not. Choose.

 

[realityman]

Helmsalee, great posts!

What's wrong with flying a metal tube for an entire career? For some, this thought is a horrible prospect. Of course,if that's the case, I can't imagine why you would have gotten I into it in the first place.

For me, flying is a true gift. If I have to go to work to make a living, why do some of you consider me a loser for enjoying what I do? Pretty much all of us have to make money somehow. Why is it so bad to enjoy what you do for work? Even if it's flying?

And when I get home, I have my own planes to fly for fun! That doesn't mean I have to get a life. I have a life! And it I involves a love of aviation! Some of you really enjoy fishing for fun. Others, golf. And still others, boating. And for some of us, it's aviation. And best of all, we get to take what we love doing for fun, and do it to make money too!

By the way, just for reference, i have a family I enjoy very much! Most of my life centers around them. While I love flying, I go to work for them. And I share my personal flying with them too, as well as sharing in the things they enjoy too. Just wanted to let you know I have good balance in my life.

And back on topic one more time. Some of you keep coming back to a person's motives for working. "those old guys have money. They're just out here flying for fun.". Again, so what? Motives are irrelevant. Oh, they may annoy some of you, but it's not a good reason to make a rule to force someone out of a job they rightfully got. Which young guys should be given precedence for a flying job based on motive? Should the young pilot whose motive for wanting that flying job is to support his family be given a job over someone of the same age who wants the flying job as a way to see more of the world? Should a pilot who wants a flying job in order to fulfill his love of flying be given a job over someone who wants a flying job to meet hot flight attendants? Who decides which motives for work are better qualifiers for hiring a pilot? Do we say that if someone has a summer home and a Ferrari, they have to quit? Or is it only if they have a summer home and a Ferrari AND are over 65 years old they have to quit? What about someone who entered aviation to see the world, but later their motivation changed to supporting a family because they got married and had kids? How do you account for changing motivations anyway?

One person's motives for flying may be very annoying to someone else. But it's simply a bad excuse for age discrimination.

 

[T-1GUY]

Please don't take anything I say as being bitter. Timing is everything in this career. It is what it is. I just can't stand seeing guys make comments like they are entitled to something. They are not. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy flying, but I also have many other interests. I have seen a lot in my flying career. I have flown heavies and fighters. Flown formation, airdrop, air refueling, sim monkey, GS instructor, part 91, part 91K, Part 135, Part 121, fractional, corporate, etc. I have been an instructor, examiner, etc. I have flown to every continent in the world to include Antarctica.

I have a good 20 to 25 years left of flying if I so choose. My ambitions in life were to be a pilot, accountant, and doctor. My guidance counselor in high school laughed at me when I said that. I guess she thought I was naive. Funny, I have fulfilled two out of three so far.

Aviation the last ten years has been very challenging. I happen to currently have a descent job where I can spend time on other passions.

I have two side businesses that compliment my flying career. Like I said, I can get easily bored.

If you want to fly until your 65, have at it.

For those who are still thrilled to fly the shiny tube, more power to them.

I just feel like I have had my fill and want to pursue other things, although, I'm not ready to totally bail on aviation quite yet...

 

[cldsfr79]

Back to the 65 rule idea. When you are an FO you work the same schedule, fly the same plane, but get half the pay and you have to work directly underneath someone elses thumb. Most captains out there are great, but some are complete tools and don't deserve the 4th stripe. An FO wants career progression, they want to be in charge and they want the bigger pay check and the better life. The problem in the the 91/91k/135 world is that if there is no growth with the company, that FO has no idea when he will upgrade. The guy sitting next to him can stay as long as they want. This is maddening for career progression.

Some guys say "tough luck, if you don't like the job go to another place; this is my seat and I earned it and I will stay as long as I like". That is a complete bull crap statement. Everyone knows how this industry works with jobs. You can't just go somewhere else. WHY? BECAUSE YOU GO BACK TO THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. Now you have to wait for all the other FOs to upgrade, then it's your turn. Once you have several years in as an FO, human nature makes you want to stay because you don't want to feet like you wasted your life/time. And if you do go somewhere else, you have to put up with the same thing.

And yes, motive to fly can be annoying. Guys in the right seat who want the career progression and a better life can't stand the captain that talks about how this job is just their fun retirement job or they do the job to get them out of the house. Fine, it may not be anybodies business why someone works, but if you are "retired" please do the guy in the right seat a favor and shut your mouth. Don't talk about how work is fun and games or how you own this and that and how you want more. And maybe in return the guy in the right seat wont complain about you being old and in the way.

Deal?

And by the way. I am a left seater, I just look out for and am mindful of the guys who are eager to join my side of the plane.

 

[gret]

An FO wants career progression, they want to be in charge and they want the bigger pay check and the better life. The problem in the the 91/91k/135 world is that if there is no growth with the company, that FO has no idea when he will upgrade. The guy sitting next to him can stay as long as they want. This is maddening for career progression.

The problem is too many pilots and a stagnant industry. We won't see significant growth in the industry for at least another couple of years. Attrition will create some positions, but not nearly enough to absorb all the people who want to fly an airplane. Another issue that will continue will be decreases in salaries because of the abundant supply.

Facts have to be faced and no employer is going to rid themselves of a senior guy simply because somebody younger wants their job...and they shouldn't. Furthermore, why do you want to agitate the senior guys who still have a lot to say about your performance during annual reviews? If you're any good, you will eventually get what you want.

BTW, you won't find any sympathy from most CEOs because they are fighting the same battle from younger executives wanting their job.

 

[pilotyip]

Most captains out there are great, but some are complete tools and don't deserve the 4th stripe. An FO wants career progression, they want to be in charge and they want the bigger pay check and the better life.

so is there a better system than seniority to determine who gets to be Captain? Maybe it should be who is related to the boss?, who the CP likes the most? or by the last four of your social security number? Watch out for what you want, it may be worse than what you have now.