Age 65

[FrontierFan]

I have been paired up with many pilots over 60 and some over 65 as of late. Here is my opinion based on my own life experiences.

To begin with I will not use blanket statements to cover any group of people as I believe such attempts at making a point take away any substance and validity to any attempted point. "All young people need babysat....or all 60+ year olds need depends etc"....is stupid

Second, I am 33, live in base, have ok seniority and will gain very very little if an age 65 rule was started at my company. So, at least, in my case "get outta my seat" does not apply to my personal situation.

Regardless of the emotion of those possibly affected by an age 65 rule at the fracts, here are some facts worth noting:

Two 60+ year-olds are not allowed to sit next to each other in international airspace per ICAO.

Those two CAL pilots who unfortunately died in their seats both had legal medicals and passed all checkrides. Dying at work could happen in your 30s but is far far less likely than someone over 60. Not surprisingly one of the biggest determination in life / health insurance is AGE.

There are many people over 60 and 65 that I have flown with who do a great job as a professional at Netjets. Not just pilots skillz but people skillz, numb chuck skillz, and are all around model crew-members.

I have also flown with a couple who were terrible. It wasn't because they were bad people, it was because they didn't age well. One guy in particular (who left NJA with the early out) was just terrible. No one had any idea how he got through his medical with his loss of hearing. You would have to repeat callouts two and three times. He couldn't control the volume of his voice so he would often yell through the head set at such loudness that all the pax in the back could hear him and later asked if he wore hearing aids.

He would commonly put the new assigned altitude in the heading and new assigned heading in the altitude window. Something like a runway change to a parallel would be turned into a border line emergency...and worst of all, his flying was completely embarrassing. Throwing customers drinks out of their hands while taxing, crashing onto runways, etc....just terrible.

Now he was a really nice guy but he would not hang it up. Now in my situation I was put into a bad spot because we did not have any age limits at NJA that would have removed him years prior and now I was left with what to do. It is very easy to say "screw it, he's a nice guy, yada yada yada". But it begged the question, "would I be comfortable with him flying anyone I cared about"? The answer was absolutely not. I flew with him on many tours so he didn't have a bad day (like we all do at times), he had a bad certificate that should have been revoked years prior.

Now some would now answer "hey why not call that union committee"? The reason is because its hard. Do I wanna take time out of my day off to go tell on my union brother who I have no beef with whatsoever and is genuinely a nice guy knowing you personally will have a negative impact on another union member's life? Not really. And then the self talk starts....

"why is this guy still here"? "I have friends who are furloughed AND aren't embarrassing to owners"

Now I don't believe every pilot degrades into what I witnessed after they turn 65...but some really really do.

The big question is what about those who may be in the majority who are the kind of people I have flown with lately. Great people and great people who happen to be over 60-65. Just because some are what I witnessed does not constitute a blanket cover all rule.

But medicals and checkrides don't always cover all the bases either. It didn't help those two CAL pilots who died in their seats nor did it help the guy I flew with years ago.

In a perfect world we are all going to have awesome careers and be in a financial position to retire at 60 and flying past 60 is purely for health insurance and a hobby. Unfortunately today's world is far far from perfect and I have met many who are still working past 60 because they absolutely have to.

So what do we do? I have flown with lots of people are over 60 and 65 who are model crew members. I have also flown with at least one who was in his early 60s and terrible. Honestly I don't want your seat. I am scared if we ever have a pilot die on a pax flight. On both occasions CAL was in the papers for sometime after these two guys died in the seat.

So here is my idea:
Why not keep our current medical / checkride requirements and use (nja's case) our union committees. And in addition maybe we should also consider an age limit of 70. There will still be many who can perform past 70 but I believe 70 is reasonable nonetheless.


Thoughts?

 

[cldsfr79]

One solution would be to downgrade after 65.

Once a pilot hits his 65 birthday, if he/she wants to continue to operate in a 135/91K environment than they can as a first officer. As mentioned by some, there are guys over 60 that have great skills and there are some who should hang it up, if they still want to fly, this will give them a chance, but they wont be in command.

I know its been posted about how aging affects the mind and I have taken enough human factors classes and read enough books to say this:

As someone gets older they do rely on their skills and past experiences to handle situations. There has been studies in which a young pilot fresh out of training is placed up against a "retirey" in challenging situations. It turns out that the young pilot actually takes a bit longer to react to a situation because they have to examine the situation, rely on what they have learned, make a decision, and then react. The older pilot through experience is able to quickly examine the situation determine an outcome based on experience and react.

That being said, the younger guy excels when it comes to them both learning new items and in stamina.

In our new world where technology and procedures change rapidly, I'm afraid that the "retireys" will be overtaken by the information flood. Sadly it's getting to the point where experience is getting replaced by technology. We don't have to "eye-ball" a thunderstorm due to weather technology, listen to a strange sounding engine because of advanced engine diagnostics, heck, our planes even help us with V1 cuts by pushing in on the correct rudder. The days of "seat of you pants flying" is over and technology has assisted in new information that a retirey could have only dreamed about.

All in all I think it would be fair to downgrade. Before the 65 age rule became what it is, if I have correct information, FedEx pilots who hit 60 were allowed to downgrade to Engineer if they wanted to stay in the cockpit.

 

[pilotyip]

good post

I have been p.....on committee"? The reason is because its hard. Do I wanna take time out of my day off to go tell on my union brother who I have no beef with whatsoever and is genuinely a nice guy knowing you personally will have a negative impact on another union member's life? Not really. And then the self talk starts....

"why is this guy still here"? "I have friends who are furloughed AND aren't embarrassing to owners"

Now I don't believe every pilot degrades into what I witnessed after they turn 65...but some really really do.

The big question is what about those...... many who can perform past 70 but I believe 70 is reasonable nonetheless.


Thoughts?

nice job, goes to the reality of the issue. Age alone does not define capability.

One solution would be to downgr......... who hit 60 were allowed to downgrade to Engineer if they wanted to stay in the cockpit.

smacks of get out of my seat

 

[Pervis]

We've had two pilots die on duty in the last few years. One died in his sleep in the hotel-he was in his 30s. Another dropped dead of a massive coronary on the ramp-he was in his 40s. So far, all the old guys are doing just fine. Maybe the ones who died were doing too much stress worrying about senior pilots hoarding "their" seat.

 

[jonjuan]

Then why does your insurance go down as you age with no accidents or tickets?

AARP

 

[pilotyip]

We've had two pilots die on duty in the last few years. One died in his sleep in the hotel-he was in his 30s. Another dropped dead of a massive coronary on the ramp-he was in his 40s. So far, all the old guys are doing just fine. Maybe the ones who died were doing too much stress worrying about senior pilots hoarding "their" seat.

In that case maybe the retirement age should be in the 30's or 40's.

 

[rettofly]

but it won't be age related when two 30 year old pilots land short of the runway with a some former head of state on board.

Like the change from 135 to 121 for 10 or more pax seats after a B1900 with a 30 year old captain met a B90 0r B200 at the runway intersection at Quincy, IL some years ago.

 

[rettofly]

One solution would be to downgrade after 65.

Once a pilot hits his 65 birthday, if he/she wants to continue to operate in a 135/91K environment than they can as a first officer. As mentioned by some, there are guys over 60 that have great skills and there are some who should hang it up, if they still want to fly, this will give them a chance, but they wont be in command.

I know its been posted about how aging affects the mind and I have taken enough human factors classes and read enough books to say this:

As someone gets older they do rely on their skills and past experiences to handle situations. There has been studies in which a young pilot fresh out of training is placed up against a "retirey" in challenging situations. It turns out that the young pilot actually takes a bit longer to react to a situation because they have to examine the situation, rely on what they have learned, make a decision, and then react. The older pilot through experience is able to quickly examine the situation determine an outcome based on experience and react.

That being said, the younger guy excels when it comes to them both learning new items and in stamina.

In our new world where technology and procedures change rapidly, I'm afraid that the "retireys" will be overtaken by the information flood. Sadly it's getting to the point where experience is getting replaced by technology. We don't have to "eye-ball" a thunderstorm due to weather technology, listen to a strange sounding engine because of advanced engine diagnostics, heck, our planes even help us with V1 cuts by pushing in on the correct rudder. The days of "seat of you pants flying" is over and technology has assisted in new information that a retirey could have only dreamed about.

All in all I think it would be fair to downgrade. Before the 65 age rule became what it is, if I have correct information, FedEx pilots who hit 60 were allowed to downgrade to Engineer if they wanted to stay in the cockpit.

Good post, but I worry about the notion that "seat of the pants" flying is over. The red X on the PFD (or the blank PFD) and other assorted undue events are not sufficiently emphasized in the sims, leading to overreliance on the technology. When the panel suddenly gets dark and scary is not the time to be learning stick and rudder skills. Experiencing a tail stall from airframe icing is not the time to learn how to deal with it. Etc, etc.

 

[FrontierFan]

We've had two pilots die on duty in the last few years. One died in his sleep in the hotel-he was in his 30s. Another dropped dead of a massive coronary on the ramp-he was in his 40s. So far, all the old guys are doing just fine. Maybe the ones who died were doing too much stress worrying about senior pilots hoarding "their" seat.

As I wrote in my post:

My fear is a pilot who dies in his / her seat on a pax leg and with no age limit whatsoever it could happen. As posted, it already happened not to two 70 year olds but two guys at and just under 60.

I understand the original age limit of 60 was formed due to business politics but it was also brought up to global standard by a union push from pilots not able to retire at 60 after 9/11.

Again in accordance with ICAO, two 60+ plus year olds aren't even allowed to sit next to each-other. And that is not "get outta my seat".

Someone posted a link to the G crash in HOU on its way to pickup former Pres Bush. If I remember correctly the capt had like 19 billion hours and in the end they put in the wrong ILS freq. I am sure he has done that before but that was not his day.

If a pilot has equal odds of dying on the job at 40 as a 70 year old than their insurance premiums should be the same....and we all know they are not. The reason is not age discrimination on behalf of the insurance company.

 

[pilotyip]

As I wrote in my post:
If a pilot has equal odds of dying on the job at 40 as a 70 year old than their insurance premiums should be the same....and we all know they are not. The reason is not age discrimination on behalf of the insurance company.

might insurance premiums might be different if they only insured poeple passing a 1st class medical?