Age 65

[realityman]

No thanks.

Guys calling me greedy while taking hundreds of thousands of dollars out of my pocket will always get under my skin.

What are you basing those PERCEIVED losses on? Are you using some standard time frame for upgrades? Such as, everyone who is hired today at a major would have upgraded in 10 years, but now must wait another 5 years because of the older pilots who are hanging around. See what I mean? Of course, even with waiting another 5 years for upgrade, wouldn't you make the same money anyway since YOU can now work until 65?
Does your formula take into account whether an airline grows or shrinks? Hires or furloughs? Effects of future economies? Possible downgrades? Concessionary future contracts? Future contracts that may provide more monetary gains for F/O's than captains? How did you arrive at your figures anyway? Did you assume the 'old guys' would take 5 more years of captain's pay from you? Is that assuming they should leave at 60 but YOU should work until 65?
And how does this affect the 'old guys'? Are you assuming that all of them were able to be captains for 30 years, but you'll only get to be one for 20? What were their wages as captains 30 years ago vs. what you are presently making as an F/O?

In other words, how big is the disparity anyway? The numbers you presented are only guesses. You could be dead on. You could also be way off. Sure, if it was still age 60 you'd upgrade 5 years sooner, but you'd also retire 5 years sooner. If all other factors remain the same (airline size, the economy, static growth, etc...) you will spend the same amount of time as a captain under age 65 as you would have under age 60. The REAL difference is you will be an F/O longer (depending on when you were hired). But that's extra work time you didn't have before, so it's all bonus money in the course of your career anyway. With age 60, you'd have the same amount of time as captain, but five less years worked altogether, so total earnings would actually be less under age 60 rules.

What this discussion really reveals, is the sort of mindset some on here have. It becomes very obvious who has a positive outlook on life, and who only sees things in the negative.

 

[Hamburger]

Such as, everyone who is hired today at a major would have upgraded in 10 years, but now must wait another 5 years because of the older pilots who are hanging around. See what I mean? Of course, even with waiting another 5 years for upgrade, wouldn't you make the same money anyway since YOU can now work until 65?

No. You wouldn't. Don't fall for their line of BS, that you get an extra five years at the top. It's not a sliding scale, 65 is a hard number. You get an extra five years where you're at. The FO gets to spend an extra five years as an FO, the Captain gets to spend it as a Captain. The guys you're talking about who is hired today.....Gets to spend that five years not even hired.

CA: hired at 30, upgrades at 40, then the ruling comes down. 10 years as FO/25 years as CA
FO: hired at 30 in the same class as captain, has upgrade class cancelled and has to spend the five years as an FO, so upgrades at 45. 15 years as an FO/20 years as Captain.
Your guy: Had a newhire class date at 30, but now has to wait just to be hired at 35. 10 years FO/20 years Captain.

You can throw in the "there's a million different variables" and "nobody promised you an upgrade date when you were hired". Absolutely, these are just numbers to illustrate the point. However, regardless of where the line falls after all the variables specific to a particular job are taken into account, the 65 ruling is a Constant and that line moved by five years.
Also, for every guy that Doesn't stay till 65 or dies trying, the hit is less.

 

[Hamburger]

Sure, if it was still age 60 you'd upgrade 5 years sooner, but you'd also retire 5 years sooner. If all other factors remain the same (airline size, the economy, static growth, etc...) you will spend the same amount of time as a captain under age 65 as you would have under age 60.

You're not taking into account which side of the line you are on when the 'button got pushed'. When it was age 60, they DID upgrade five years sooner and then the switch flipped and they DIDN'T retire five years sooner.
Also, all other things being equal, you get hired at 35 instead of 30. It's not a sliding scale.......65 is a hard number, but you continue to age while you're waiting for the backlog to clear out.

 

[Hamburger]

With age 60, you'd have the same amount of time as captain, but five less years worked altogether, so total earnings would actually be less under age 60 rules.

That only works if nobody was actually employed when the button was pushed. But the reality is, everyone was employed, or on the way to being.

What this discussion really reveals, is the sort of mindset some on here have. It becomes very obvious who has a positive outlook on life, and who only sees things in the negative.

No amount of outlook can change math.
I accept it. I'm not leading a recall effort, horse has left the barn.
It is what it is. It sucks, but That's life.

What I have a problem with is when they've been able to snow guys like yourself out of doing the math. If you aren't a Captain (who didn't get downgraded as a result), You have taken a huge hit. Do you say people who get upset about high taxes don't have a positive outlook on life?
What I have a huge problem with is them telling me I'm greedy or that "I just see things in the negative" while they're taking hundreds of thousands of dollars out of my pocket. I'm not a fool.

 

[realityman]

No. You wouldn't. Don't fall for their line of BS, that you get an extra five years at the top. It's not a sliding scale, 65 is a hard number. You get an extra five years where you're at. The FO gets to spend an extra five years as an FO, the Captain gets to spend it as a Captain. The guys you're talking about who is hired today.....Gets to spend that five years not even hired.

CA: hired at 30, upgrades at 40, then the ruling comes down. 10 years as FO/25 years as CA
FO: hired at 30 in the same class as captain, has upgrade class cancelled and has to spend the five years as an FO, so upgrades at 45. 15 years as an FO/20 years as Captain.
Your guy: Had a newhire class date at 30, but now has to wait just to be hired at 35. 10 years FO/20 years Captain.

You can throw in the "there's a million different variables" and "nobody promised you an upgrade date when you were hired". Absolutely, these are just numbers to illustrate the point. However, regardless of where the line falls after all the variables specific to a particular job are taken into account, the 65 ruling is a Constant and that line moved by five years.
Also, for every guy that Doesn't stay till 65 or dies trying, the hit is less.

No. You aren't looking at this correctly. Forget what the captains get with the age 65 rule. It's actually irrelevant. Your argument is that something has been taken from YOU (assuming you're an F/O). So let's look at it.

Forget all the variables that can come into play. I'll keep it simple like you did.

You get hired as an F/O at 30. You upgrade at 40. Under the age 60 rule, you'll have 20 years as a captain. Total career with the airline is 30 years.

Now under the age 65 rule, you get hired at 30. Because of the extra five years, you now upgrade at 45. You still spend 20 years as captain. BUT, total time with the airline is now 35 years. You have gained an extra five years of income in your chosen profession. Yeah, it's at F/O wages, but it's money you wouldn't have had under the age 60 rule. You STILL get 20 years as captain.

Perhaps your anger comes from the fact that some of those captains may get 25 or 30 years as captains, where you may only get 20. But even under the age 60 rule, you'd have the same time as captain, depending on when you were hired and how long until upgrades.

Your time as captain doesn't change. Your time as F/O may be extended, but again, those are an EXTRA 5 years you wouldn't have had under the age 60 rule.

The only way you're getting hosed is if you're assuming the current crop of captains should get out at age 60, but YOU should be allowed to fly until 65.

 

[realityman]

FO: hired at 30 in the same class as captain, has upgrade class cancelled and has to spend the five years as an FO, so upgrades at 45. 15 years as an FO/20 years as Captain.

This is the only thing I can see where someone may get hosed in this deal. However, this is so specific, it would affect only a very small handful of people. Yeah, it would suck to be one of those people. But overall, the vast majority of F/O's will NOT be losing out on captain pay.

 

[realityman]

You're not taking into account which side of the line you are on when the 'button got pushed'. When it was age 60, they DID upgrade five years sooner and then the switch flipped and they DIDN'T retire five years sooner.
Also, all other things being equal, you get hired at 35 instead of 30. It's not a sliding scale.......65 is a hard number, but you continue to age while you're waiting for the backlog to clear out.

What this sounds like to me is just jealousy of current captains. Sometimes you have good things happen to you, and sometimes you don't. In this case, current captains get an extra five years of earning power. That IS just how it goes in this industry.
You could also (as an F/O) get furloughed for 5 years, while the captains stay on and make that EXTRA 5 years of captain pay that you aren't.

As for those not hired yet, can't speak for them. When you're looking at a career (any job), it's not in the interest of those currently employed to be making rules that favor folks who aren't even on property yet. Would you take a pay cut if your company told you that by doing so they'd be able to hire more pilots? The best thing you can do to help those who aren't even employees yet is to get the best deal overall so when they do finally get hired, it's a great job. So maybe they have to wait an extra 5 years to get hired. If you really want to help them, then get the payscales way up for everyone currently there so when the new hires come on they are making better money than you were when you were hired.

 

[realityman]

What I have a problem with is when they've been able to snow guys like yourself out of doing the math. If you aren't a Captain (who didn't get downgraded as a result), You have taken a huge hit. Do you say people who get upset about high taxes don't have a positive outlook on life?
What I have a huge problem with is them telling me I'm greedy or that "I just see things in the negative" while they're taking hundreds of thousands of dollars out of my pocket. I'm not a fool.

No one has snowed me. Who do you think is feeding me numbers? I just have a different viewpoint on it than you do. Not saying I'm right. Just putting my opinion out there. Same as you.

But I disagree on whether you've taken a hit. If you still get the same time as captain, but get to work an extra 5 years with the airline, even as an F/O, then you've made MORE than you would have otherwise. As for the higher taxes analogy, are they paying more in taxes because they're making more money and have moved up into a higher tax bracket? I wouldn't be too upset if that happened to me. And yes, being upset about high taxes without seeing ANYTHING positive from it is not having a positive outlook on life. Sure, the high taxes suck, but hey, the roads are maintained well. My kid isn't paying a tuition to go to a public school. I don't have to maintain my own personal military to protect myself from other countries. The police show up at my door when I dial 911. High taxes ARE upsetting, but there is at least SOME good that comes from them. Like I said, it's all in your outlook.

BTW, I've never called you greedy, or even thought it. I just don't think anything has been taken from you. You've been GIVEN 5 more years in the industry.

 

[Hamburger]

If you still get the same time as captain, but get to work an extra 5 years with the airline, even as an F/O, then you've made MORE than you would have otherwise.

You don't get the same time as a Captain, that's the point. The extra five years I get at the airline are spent as an FO. A big 5 year pause button was hit and we are living these magical extra five years right now.

You get hired as an F/O at 30. You upgrade at 40. Under the age 60 rule, you'll have 20 years as a captain. Total career with the airline is 30 years.
Now under the age 65 rule, you get hired at 30.

The thing is. I got hired at 30, the rule passed and now I don't upgrade until 45. Same 20 years as a Captain, five more as an FO.
The guy who hasn't been hired yet doesn't get hired until he's 35. Five more years at the Regionals for him for that same 20 years as Captain.
The Captain who upgraded when he was 40 and then pushed for 65, now has 25 years as Captain.

Get it? Everyone else has the same 20 years as Captain, but the current guys get an extra five.

The guys that pushed this through are forcing everyone else to work five extra years to "break even" so that they can take more.

Everyone before them had 20 year Captain Careers and everyone behind them gets a 20 year Captain Career, but they get a 25 year Captain Career.
The cost? Everyone behind them has to sacrifice five of their golden years going to work instead of playing golf. I'm not jealous, I'm pissed. Five years of my life is a big deal. Of course, I can still retire at 60, and plan to, but it will cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so, because I now only get 15 years as a Captain.

I know you haven't called me greedy, I jumped in when Fubi, who does, piped up. I doesn't seem that you're 121, so you may not even have a dog in this fight, but a LOT of us do. I'm merely trying to bring to your attention the reality of what this did.

And yes, being upset about high taxes without seeing ANYTHING positive from it is not having a positive outlook on life.

The taxes bit lost something in the translation. Not at all what I was trying to say.
How about this: Tell me what you see positive about having to work an extra five years to achieve what the guy sitting next to you already had so that he can take more. Tell me how to be positive about him calling you greedy.

 

[imacdog]

This is the only thing I can see where someone may get hosed in this deal. However, this is so specific, it would affect only a very small handful of people. Yeah, it would suck to be one of those people. But overall, the vast majority of F/O's will NOT be losing out on captain pay.

Actually at the airlines, it affected everyone who was an FO at the time of the ruling. Not an insignificant number. To make the same number of years as Captain as they would have before, they now have to work until 65. Get it?

 

[realityman]

Ah Hamburger, now I think I understand your point a bit better. Part of what you'r saying is the same thing as what Imacdog just said. And it is exactly what I'm talking about when with perspective. I just didn't realize it until now.

I love aviation. Flying for a career is heaven to me. When I come home, I have my own planes to fly. Oshkosh is my mecca. I truly enjoy sharing it with my family. My friends. People I don't know who want to know more about it. Promoting it amongst the high school set (I do the occasional presentation on aviation for local high schools). Flying planes for a living is NOT a hardship for me. It's a priviledge. One I've worked hard to earn. So my point is, I'm seeing the extra five years of staying in the cockpit (at the airlines) as a major plus, and victory against age discrimination. You and some others see it as you now HAVE to stay in the cockpit another 5 years. I see it as being handed a bonus, you see it as being handed a sentence.

Okay, that's fine. We just had a very interesting discussion along similar lines on our own union boards. It's a good discussion. And nobody was right or wrong. It was all individual perspective. (The discussion was actually about whether this job is worth it or not)

I'm not telling you what to feel. Be pissed. Be angry. Be happy. Whatever. You feel how you do about it.

Rules change. Sometimes those caught in the transition don't get the best deals (ask some of our Netjets pilots who were making bypass pay and what happened with our '05 contract). One thing I've learned about dealing with a large group as opposed to individual deals is that you simply won't make everyone happy. You feel that you now HAVE to work an extra five years. I'd bet there are plenty of F/O's who are glad they don't have to hang it up at 60 anymore. What about the flying public? They now have the experience remaining in the cockpit an extra five years. (yeah we can argue AGAIN about the competency of the older guys, but my experience has been that these guys are mostly excellent, with only a few bad apples here and there. About the same as the number of bad apples I find in the younger guys too.). And what if, in the course of life, you have some hardships that cost you (financially) a bunch? Maybe having the ability to work longer in your chosen career, instead of having to start over in something new at 60 years old, will turn out to be a good thing.

I see your point. We just aren't going to agree. I think this is a good thing that has expanded the potential of the job for most people. It's opened a few doors that were previously closed.

 

[imacdog]

I would think that most people, when faced with the reality that they have to work longer to make the same money they would have in the first place, would consider it "have" to. Just don't try to spin it like the airline FO's didn't get the short end of the stick with the implementation of this rule. Since I don't work for an airline, I can consider myself pretty impartial.

 

[realityman]

I don't work for the airlines either. I just have a different view on it. What I think is, some of the F/O's will view this as a bad thing, and some will view it as a good thing. The individual's situation, personal goals, and driving motivations will determine how this is viewed.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Thanks, realityman. You saved me a very long multi-quoted reply.

Hamburger's argument boils down to "I got screwed." And that's the entitlement mentality in a nutshell.

 

[Hamburger]

I love aviation. Flying for a career is heaven to me..

That is great and you're a lucky guy. Did that play into choosing your current job instead of one where you knew you would have to retire at 60 when you got hired?
I also understand that the guys behind me, like those high school kids may enjoy it as much as we do and deserve their turn at the plate.
Nothing is preventing me from participating in aviation after retirement at any age.

I truly enjoy sharing it with my family. My friends.

I enjoy my family and friends a great deal. I never get to see them because I'm always at work.

I would think that most people, when faced with the reality that they have to work longer to make the same money they would have in the first place, would consider it "have" to.

Precisely. If working more for the same money is such a 'privilege', go in on your days off and fly an extra trip every month for free.

 

[Hamburger]

Thanks, realityman. You saved me a very long multi-quoted reply.

Hamburger's argument boils down to "I got screwed." And that's the entitlement mentality in a nutshell.

Actually it's everybody who wasn't a captain at the time of the ruling got screwed.

You a Captain or an F.O.?

 

[realityman]

That is great and you're a lucky guy. Did that play into choosing your current job instead of one where you knew you would have to retire at 60 when you got hired? Nope. I had a goal to fly for the airlines. The path I found myself on put me somewhere else. But it worked out fine. I find that if you get rid of preconceptions, things become a lot more free-flowing and easier to take. by the way, my current position at NJA wasn't originally an especially good job. Rather than complain that we all got screwed, we (our entire group of pilots) worked hard to make it a better job, without actually forcing anyone out.
I also understand that the guys behind me, like those high school kids may enjoy it as much as we do and deserve their turn at the plate. Why do they 'deserve' it? What, exactly, makes them so deserving? Just because they chose aviation as a career? So? Everyone 'deserves' something just because they WANT it? In that case, I deserve to win the lottery. LOL! And why doesn't the older pilot 'deserve' to work longer? Just because someone else thinks they have 'enough'?
Nothing is preventing me from participating in aviation after retirement at any age. True dat. Much as I love aviation, I'd still like to retire before I die. But it's nice to know that I have the option of working if I need/want to.
I enjoy my family and friends a great deal. I never get to see them because I'm always at work. Whole other topic here. I'd like to see my family more too. But I can't say that I 'never' see them. Considering my profession, I feel pretty lucky to have a good balance in my life with that.

Precisely. If working more for the same money is such a 'privilege', go in on your days off and fly an extra trip every month for free.

Okay.

 

[Hamburger]

Go ahead and tell yourself that having the same opportunity as every pilot alive is being 'entitled' but taking more for themselves and sticking their children with the bill isn't being greedy. It's in Baby Boomer DNA. Nobody else 'deserves' what they can take from them.

Okay.

Go ahead and work an extra trip every month on your days off for free for the next five years. If you don't actually pick up the phone and do it, then you don't believe your own BS.
Have fun.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Realityman,

Guys like Humbuger are so self-involved they don't understand that this profession is fluid. Your upgrade can be advanced or delayed depending on the economy, the price of oil, 9-11 or a whole host of circumstances beyond your control. There are guys who upgraded in 18 months at my outfit. F/Os today are looking at 10-11 years to upgrade. Does that make the 18 month upgrade guys bad or greedy? Not hardly.

However, Humbuger apparently believes that he is OWED HIS upgrade the date he expected it the day he got hired.

As you've pointed out numerous times, life (especially airline life) ain't fair. Play the cards you're dealt. Tantrums don't work and they only make you look foolish.

Never try to teach a pig to sing. Its a waste of your time and it infuriates the pig.

 

[Hamburger]

Your upgrade can be advanced or delayed depending on the economy, the price of oil, 9-11 or a whole host of circumstances beyond your control.

Very true. However, this was very much in the control of a specific segment of pilots. The very same segment that got it shot down for decades, when it would've hurt them........Until they upgraded and could cash in

However, Humbuger apparently believes that he is OWED HIS upgrade the date he expected it the day he got hired.

Nope. I've said time and again. It is what it is. Life isn't fair. So be it.

I never say a word until some a$$hole calls me greedy when I have to work an extra five years or lose hundreds of thousands of dollars so that he can line his pockets.

I still notice you refuse to answer.