Age 65

[cldsfr79]

Double ditto!

If you need somebody to retire to move up or get a job, you're a sorry excuse for a human, or an American. Make you own place in the world rather than being a lame butt parasite.

Nobody said it would be easy and you're not entitled to anything. Go earn it.

Wow.

I'm sorry, but are you not aware of how seniority works?

See in our industry, having a good career or moving up the chain has nothing to do with hard work and respect, it's all about timing and good luck. If you get hired at the right place and the right time, you have a good career. If you get hired in the back end of a boom or keep getting furloughed, your career sucks.

In this industry you have to wait your turn to upgrade, get better aircraft, have a better schedule. Most guys are great to fly with, but their are a lot of rejects out there too. Some guys don't deserve a fourth stripe by their behavior, ethics, or job ability. I'm a left seater, but on occasion I swing gear for a more senior captain. Sometimes I get frustrated by flying under the command of someone who has no right to be there. Not because they are old, but because their ability lacks.

You want guys to earn their place? Well how about we upgrade based on merit and ability, not just because you're next in line. Being a captain has everything to do with knowledge, levelheadedness, and ability. Some don't have this.

And about old age. If you have the ability to hold command, great, it will be a pleasure flying with you. If you are working because this is your "fun job" or "your retirement job" (things I have heard "retired" guys say) than I question their overall dedication and drive versus a career individual. And with some, it shows.

 

[gret]

I get it and agree with most everything you said.

My point, and I probably didn't articulate this very well, is getting a promotion by pushing somebody to retire isn't very classy and is counter intuitive to what most people in a capitalistic society believe in. If you sign up for a career as a pilot, you have to realize that the work rules are different and promotions don't always come based on merit. It is a choice you made. You can apply the same thing to unions, some people like working within an organized labor workplace and others don't. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, it is just different and isn't suited for everyone.

One should stop blaming others for their situation and instead, do something about it. If you don't like the system, then you made the wrong choice and you should either change careers or start your own business.

 

[gunfyter]

if they ever made that VM buyout plan a permanent ... there would be no way in hell I'd work past 65....

 

[CALRepublic]

I get it and agree with most everything you said.

My point, and I probably didn't articulate this very well, is getting a promotion by pushing somebody to retire isn't very classy and is counter intuitive to what most people in a capitalistic society believe in. If you sign up for a career as a pilot, you have to realize that the work rules are different and promotions don't always come based on merit. It is a choice you made. You can apply the same thing to unions, some people like working within an organized labor workplace and others don't. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, it is just different and isn't suited for everyone.

One should stop blaming others for their situation and instead, do something about it. If you don't like the system, then you made the wrong choice and you should either change careers or start your own business.

I see what you're saying, fair enough, but:

i know a couple of guys at NJ, both pushing 70 (one can't even hear anymore) and nobody likes flying with him because he can't do the job anymore, he has a hard time in the simulator as it is... They have their bids in for a particular type of airplane. They're waiting for their seniority number to come up. The company is going to spend a lot of money to type these two and maybe get a year out of them....

How do you feel about that???

and don't worry these two are not going anywhere, they've made that very clear, they're "having too much fun". They will be around for as long as their medical holds up.

 

[Helmsalee]

Gret,
I often have problems with your posts, but this one is excellent. Well done.
Helm

 

[NachoMamma]

i know a couple of guys at NJ, both pushing 70 (one can't even hear anymore) and nobody likes flying with him because he can't do the job anymore, he has a hard time in the simulator as it is...

If this is accurate, then what I can't understand is why we have so many spineless pilots at NJ who fly with these people, personally witness this crap, and then cower back to their homes without saying a word to anyone (the company, union, FAA, etc.) that might be able to do something about them. There is a generally a belief out there that "yeah, he's dangerous and incompetent, but I only have to fly with this guy for three more days and then I'll probably never see him again." Unreal.

If you witness unsafe, dangerous incompetence from ANY crewmember (geriatric or not), the worst thing you can do is keep quiet. If more people around here had a sack, these clowns wouldn't be employed here anymore...they'd be flipping burgers where they belong. The union would be forced to deal with them based on the sheer number of complaints and this company (and the safety of the general public) would be better off for it.

 

[gret]

I see what you're saying, fair enough, but:

i know a couple of guys at NJ, both pushing 70 (one can't even hear anymore) and nobody likes flying with him because he can't do the job anymore, he has a hard time in the simulator as it is... They have their bids in for a particular type of airplane. They're waiting for their seniority number to come up. The company is going to spend a lot of money to type these two and maybe get a year out of them....

How do you feel about that???

and don't worry these two are not going anywhere, they've made that very clear, they're "having too much fun". They will be around for as long as their medical holds up.

Should be gone!...because of performance, not because of reaching a certain age (same opinion would be expressed if they were pushing 40).

Judgement has to come into play and it would be careless and reckless to leave someone like this in a flying job, if this is the case.

 

[gret]

Gret,
I often have problems with your posts, but this one is excellent. Well done.
Helm

Thanks man!

We don't always have to agree (occasionally our thoughts are not put into words precisely the way we think), but I do believe we are usually working toward the same goal.

 

[pilotyip]

no one has menetioned the age discrimination law suit that might follow if you made decision based upon age only

 

[Jack Mehoff]

If this is accurate, then what I can't understand is why we have so many spineless pilots at NJ who fly with these people, personally witness this crap, and then cower back to their homes without saying a word to anyone (the company, union, FAA, etc.) that might be able to do something about them. There is a generally a belief out there that "yeah, he's dangerous and incompetent, but I only have to fly with this guy for three more days and then I'll probably never see him again." Unreal.

If you witness unsafe, dangerous incompetence from ANY crewmember (geriatric or not), the worst thing you can do is keep quiet. If more people around here had a sack, these clowns wouldn't be employed here anymore...they'd be flipping burgers where they belong. The union would be forced to deal with them based on the sheer number of complaints and this company (and the safety of the general public) would be better off for it.

Pilots have spoke up and when I was there so did I about a few Capts past their prime. The union didn't do anything about it. NJASAP is like the AARP because thats where the most dues are coming from.

 

[NachoMamma]

Pilots have spoke up and when I was there so did I about a few Capts past their prime. The union didn't do anything about it. NJASAP is like the AARP because thats where the most dues are coming from.

Did you file an ASAP report? That'll get their attention. It is common knowledge that Pro Standards at NJ is well beyond worthless. There are other means.

 

[jppt2000]

Did you file an ASAP report? That'll get their attention. It is common knowledge that Pro Standards at NJ is well beyond worthless. There are other means.

Wow,
Tough talk from someone who hides in anonymity.
When one files the ASAP report, be sure to write you're acting on the advice from someone on an internet message board. That will really get "their" attention.
Tough talk from folks who won't take ownership of what they post on the union board.

 

[NachoMamma]

Wow,
Tough talk from someone who hides in anonymity.
When one files the ASAP report, be sure to write you're acting on the advice from someone on an internet message board. That will really get "their" attention.
Tough talk from folks who won't take ownership of what they post on the union board.

Not sure why you think that's "tough talk"...unless you're in the Pro-Standards committee and took offense to my (very valid) assessment of it's effectiveness. If that hurt your feelings, well too bad...get over it. As for anonymity, myself as well as others have posted plenty of times on the company board with regard to filing ASAP reports as a means of documenting and eventually correcting crewmember performance at NJ. Facts are facts...no anonymity required. If Pro-Standards was worth two ********************s (and it isn't), then filing said report wouldn't be necessary.

 

[jppt2000]

Not sure why you think that's "tough talk"...unless you're in the Pro-Standards committee and took offense to my (very valid) assessment of it's effectiveness. If that hurt your feelings, well too bad...get over it. As for anonymity, myself as well as others have posted plenty of times on the company board with regard to filing ASAP reports as a means of documenting and eventually correcting crewmember performance at NJ. Facts are facts...no anonymity required. If Pro-Standards was worth two ********************s (and it isn't), then filing said report wouldn't be necessary.

Water down the effectiveness of a great safety mechanism to further one's own selfish interests.
Maybe pro standards handles issues in a fair and evenhanded manner.
Odds are they don't resolve things to everyone's satisfaction.
Oh yeah, the folks (tough talkers) on the union board you speak of, ran for cover when they were challenged.
So, they come here and hide.

 

[realityman]

Pilots have spoke up and when I was there so did I about a few Capts past their prime. The union didn't do anything about it. NJASAP is like the AARP because thats where the most dues are coming from.

Actually, that's not accurate. The vast majority of our pilots are NOT all that old. Nice try at putting rhetoric in front of facts though.

Addressing the union not doing anything about it. What would you suggest they do? The union has no power in firing anyone, that's a power reserved for management. Unions can do a lot of good for a workforce. But they aren't a panacea for everything. In fact, the good they do does come with a few downsides too. Duty of Fair Representation is one of them. I highly doubt our union could go to bat to get a dues paying member fired without some very serious legal ramifications. Unions have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to protect even the weakest members. It is definitely a downside to a union. But sometimes you have to accept a little bad to obtain a lot of good.

Anyway, the union can't do much about a weak pilot, regardless of age. If you really feel someone is a safety risk, it is the company's responsibility to do something about it. If they won't take action, not seeing how that's a failure of the union. Pro standards has proven to be very effective in many cases. But with a weak pilot, what would you have them do? Tell the guy to retire? And if he doesn't? Should they report him to the company with second-hand info? Well, there's that whole tiny legal problem again of PROTECTING dues payers, not helping end their careers.

As I said, it's really the company's problem. Not everything can be, or should be, nailed down as a union problem. If it's truly a safety issue, use the ASAP program. Now it's the company AND FAA's problem. If the pilot really sucks, the problem may also be with the training facility that keep passing him(FSI). Or the instructor pilots who keep pushing him through the checks and/or IOE. And as others have said, maybe it's other pilot's fault for not reporting a weak pilot. A couple reports won't do much. It usually takes a bunch of reports to get action. And I've personally seen the company take action when they get enough complaints. Not sure why so many people want to lay all the problems at the feet of the union.

And to stay on the thread topic, this should apply across the spectrum to pilots of all ages, not just pilots of a certain advanced age.