Age 65

[jonjuan]

If you're in the "doing this for a hobby" category, and I'm in the "doing this to feed my family category", do what you feel is right.

Dude, you need to head over to the netjet owner website and bitch to them about why they turned their shares in. Ultimately, they are the ones who are "responsible" for you being furloughed. Demand ain't what it used to be and good luck if it ever returns to what it was pre-Lehman and Bear Stearns, mortgage crisis, et al. While an unlimited furlough recall remains in your hip pocket, for you and your family's sake, you may want to look elsewhere to pay the bills for the time being. With many UAL and AMR guys still on furlough 8+ years and counting, most have learned to move on to greener pastures.

 

[OPECJet]

Dude, you need to head over to the netjet owner website and bitch to them about why they turned their shares in. Ultimately, they are the ones who are "responsible" for you being furloughed. Demand ain't what it used to be and good luck if it ever returns to what it was pre-Lehman and Bear Stearns, mortgage crisis, et al. While an unlimited furlough recall remains in your hip pocket, for you and your family's sake, you may want to look elsewhere to pay the bills for the time being. With many UAL and AMR guys still on furlough 8+ years and counting, most have learned to move on to greener pastures.

Wasn't placing any blame on anyone for the furlough in this thread. Any blame coming from me would be appropriately placed, and that doesn't include the union or the pilot group.

Been trying to get away from aviation. The job market in general is garbage around here unless you're an engineer with good contacts. I don't doubt something will work out soon, it just hasn't yet.

 

[jonjuan]

Wasn't placing any blame on anyone for the furlough in this thread. Any blame coming from me would be appropriately placed, and that doesn't include the union or the pilot group.

Been trying to get away from aviation. The job market in general is garbage around here unless you're an engineer with good contacts. I don't doubt something will work out soon, it just hasn't yet.

Good luck to you. It WILL get better.

 

[OPECJet]

Good luck to you. It WILL get better.

Thanks!

Barring any additional regurgitation or explosive diapers from family members (hasn't been much fun around here the last few days!), we're headed where the internet isn't for Christmas tomorrow morning.

I hope all of you at every friggin' frac (it just came to me....) out there will have a Merry Christmas with family and friends. If you're on the road, hope you've got a good crew to enjoy it with. Fly safe, and keep 'em happy!

 

[ArtVandalay]

I like the movie Logan's Run, that is all I have to say about this topic...

 

[pilotyip]

Good luck to you. It WILL get better.

2012 hiring boom, has already started, we are seeing turnover as pilots leave for other jobs, so hang in there the 2012 is almost next year. BTW one our NJ furloughees, says he expects to be recalled within the next ten years

 

[HalinTexas]

Let's give you another spin on it.

I'm 45. Second Christmas in a row I'm unemployed (underemployed).

At 38 years old, I was a captain on a B737-800 at ATA. We had a pretty damn good contract, as far as I was concerned, but that's a whole other story, and was happy to retire at 60 with $1.5-2M. I maxxed out my 401k contributions even before I upgraded. College for the kid was already paid for. I was debt free, and living well below my means. I had funds to survive 6 months to a year unemployed.

April 3, 2008 changed all that. My wife (FA) and I were unemployed at the same time the economy was in the midst of falling out of the sky. I didn't expect all of that to happen at he same time. Remember, if you will, that the rest of the industry suddenly stopped hiring and/or started furloughing. Also, there were no other jobs out there to easily make a living in or out of aviation. I turned down two regional jobs with a history of quick upgrades, in the interview, after I told them I made more on unemployment. The quick upgrades had already come to a halt. Don't let anyone tell you they're looking really hard for jobs while on unemployment. I had planned on surviving on UE and savings until I could find the next "suitable job."

I found one aviation "job" at a joke of (non)start-up out of TX. Three months later I left the country for a short-term contract flying job. Six months after that I was out of a job (Apr. 2009). With nothing happening in this country, at all, and not willing to go overseas for a career FO job, I started a company. Wife was laid off twice (non-aviation) in this period. She's now 50, 24 yr. FA at ATA with no interest in going back to aviation. Needless to say, I'm way in debt, had to raid that IRA (converted) to fund the company. Only took 9 months of UE which expired over a year ago. Didn't use any more taxpayer money to support myself. I'm going to have to work past 60, maybe past 65 to catch up. BTW, I've not missed one mortgage payment, child support payment, and everyone has catastrophic insurance, at least. Three months ago, and after 18 months outside of a jet, I was blessed with a short-term contract job in S. America. It has ended, but it got me current (left and right seat) and provided me with decent income. I'm looking in Africa for work.

I realize that pilots "eat their young." Look at first year pay at the legacies; it's less than new teacher pay. I realize that unions want the old to retire, so they can keep them beholden to unions at contract time, and bring in the young to perpetuate the myth that only unions can "protect your career." I resent the implication that those working after 60 are only working for fun or greed. That they are somehow beholden to the young and unemployed to sacrifice their income, their careers when their "time" comes is bullsh!t. With that logic, due to my age, experience, and employment status YOU owe me a job! SWA owes me a job, because they used ATA to gain/eliminate market share. They put their own management in place to "run" the company. They did buy the TZ cert. ya know, and didn't hire a soul as a result. But, that's business. ALPA owes me a job because they negotiated the '02 contract and the '05 concessions that were supposed to save the company. LOL. But, that's business and politics. No one owes me anything. I don't owe anyone anything. None of us has the right to tell the other how to live their life, so long as it's legal, and doesn't infringe upon the legal rights of others.

After reading this forum and others over the last few years, the sense of entitlement expressed here is really sickening. Life is unfair. People less deserving than you by any measure sometimes succeed. "Thoughtspeak" on the internet forums belie the truth and are counter productive to our lives.

My holiday advice, is to GET OVER IT. Count your blessings, George Bailey, and take the time to appreciate those blessings. Quit asking/demanding for more, because you don't get to determine what you deserve or what you'll get. You'd be surprised how much you already have.

HappyFelizKhanaKwanzamas! and Happy New Year, Damm!t!!

 

[Pervis]

Damn good post Halin. Wishing you the best, and better still.

There are far more pilots in your shoes than there are those who "work for fun". These young ones think the majority should go regardless of their history though. Afte all, they should/could have made better decisions during their careers.

My question for those who think they have a right to anyone's seat and are confident nothing will get in your way, given the chance. If you guys know all the answers on how to invest, save, and prepare for retirement, why not get into retirement consulting and become the next billionaire? Then you can buy AND fly your very own jet.

Hindsight may be 20/20, but foresight is like foreskin. It obscures the tip of the iceberg, not to mention what lies beyond. No one has any idea what lies ahead, regardless how lucky or good you are at any given moment.

 

[pilotyip]

Let's give you another spin on it.

I'm 45. Second Christmas in a row I'm unemployed .................My holiday advice, is to GET OVER IT. Count your blessings, George Bailey, and take the time to appreciate those blessings. Quit asking/demanding for more, because you don't get to determine what you deserve or what you'll get. You'd be surprised how much you already have.

HappyFelizKhanaKwanzamas! and Happy New Year, Damm!t!!

nice touch of reality, not often seen in places like this

 

[jonjuan]

nice touch of reality, not often seen in places like this

Says who- you? The ironic thing is that if age 65 weren't shoved through,
he would probably be gainfully employed.

 

[pilotyip]

Says who- you? The ironic thing is that if age 65 weren't shoved through,
he would probably be gainfully employed.

reality as he said, crap happens get over it.

 

[HalinTexas]

Says who- you? The ironic thing is that if age 65 weren't shoved through,
he would probably be gainfully employed.

There's no irony involved at all.

Fact is, there is no guarantee in life. ATA would still be out of business, and I doubt the airlines would hiring all that much.

If BO hadn't done....

If W hadn't done.....

If 9/11 hadn't done....

If all the airlines that have turned me down over the years hadn't done....

If I'd a gone to law school instead.....

It is what it is. Deal with it, and quitchyerb!tchin.

 

[pilotyip]

There's no irony involved at all.

Fact is, there is no guarantee in life. ATA would still be out of business, and I doubt the airlines would hiring all that much.

If BO hadn't done....

If W hadn't done.....

If 9/11 hadn't done....

If all the airlines that have turned me down over the years hadn't done....

If I'd a gone to law school instead.....

It is what it is. Deal with it, and quitchyerb!tchin.

a rare FI post. from some one who gets it. Luck and timing have so much more to do with your career than skill and desire ever do.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

I think most guys that are bitching would like to see some equality and consistency when comparing airline vs. frac. Is there any difference flying pax on our side of the fence or 121? NO! They all pay money for a service........some way more than others. So why does one get kicked out the door while the other guys on the fly till you die program? Thats right....the govt bureaucracy is running this show.

We all know why 60 and now 65 :nuts: came about. Its not about passing medicals and checkrides. This topic has been beat too death longer than any of us care to remember. We knew what we were getting into when we entered the fracs.

I'm done with flying until I get the callback, so this thankfully doesn't affect me. Either way, give us both 65 or take the damn thing away. 65 aint going anywhere with the airlines, so that leaves one solution in my eyes..........

 

[solafide]

Does anyone have an answer for the thread starter? He didn't ask whether you agree with retirement age, or what it should be. Does anyone know any facts about pending legislation?

 

[pilotyip]

even better why would they make 91K age 65 aand not address 135 where lots of pax are carried

 

[glasspilot]

And why leave part 91 out of it? An 80 year old John Travolta in his B-707 will kill just as many people in a house as a United A-320. Maybe all pilots should hang it up at 65.

Or maybe that's retarded and what I said before about part 121 pax getting the most protection from the FAA and people rolling up requesting a charter onto a pretty glacier or frozen lake to view wolves getting less is the way it SHOULD be.

 

[realityman]

I think most guys that are bitching would like to see some equality and consistency when comparing airline vs. frac. Is there any difference flying pax on our side of the fence or 121? NO! They all pay money for a service........some way more than others. So why does one get kicked out the door while the other guys on the fly till you die program? Thats right....the govt bureaucracy is running this show.

We all know why 60 and now 65 :nuts: came about. Its not about passing medicals and checkrides. This topic has been beat too death longer than any of us care to remember. We knew what we were getting into when we entered the fracs.

I'm done with flying until I get the callback, so this thankfully doesn't affect me. Either way, give us both 65 or take the damn thing away. 65 aint going anywhere with the airlines, so that leaves one solution in my eyes..........

This is confusing. First you say everyone deserves the same service and protections, whether on 121 or fracs, but then you say you admit that the age 65 rule has nothing to do with safety.

So let me see if I have this right: If the airlines are doing something stupid, everyone else should follow?

I have nothing against consistency. I'd love to see some coming from the government. But I'd much prefer to see some actual science behind the rules, rather than basing a new rule for the fracs on "Well, the airlines have it, so we'll make the fracs have it."

By the way, you're right. I knew what I was getting into when I joined the fracs. They had/have no age-requirement for retirement. You talk about equality between the airlines and fracs. Not sure why we really NEED equality between the two (BTW, have you looked at frac accident statistics vs. airlines? Have there EVER been ANY fatalities in the frac world? How about the airlines? Why the heck would you want the fracs to be more like the airlines?!), but if that should be the case, then perhaps the government should mandate that the fracs also pay the same as the majors.

Life isn't always fair. Putting in place rules to even things up, especially if the rule has no basis on anything, is a bad road to go down.

BTW, a few folks bitching on FI when comparing airline vs frac doesn't mean the vast majority of us out there care to make that comparison. And hate to burst your bubble, but what we do is vastly different from airline flying. Yeah, there's flying involved with both careers, but that's where the similarities end.

 

[gret]

BTW, a few folks bitching on FI when comparing airline vs frac doesn't mean the vast majority of us out there care to make that comparison. And hate to burst your bubble, but what we do is vastly different from airline flying. Yeah, there's flying involved with both careers, but that's where the similarities end.

Could you elaborate?

 

[pilotyip]

This is confusing. First you say everyone deserves the same service and protections, whether on 121 or fracs, but then you say you admit that the age 65 rule has nothing to do with safety

As per above this is all about get out of my seat, I deserve it and you have to give it to me because I have determined I am much more important than you.