Age 65

[cldsfr79]

Double ditto!

If you need somebody to retire to move up or get a job, you're a sorry excuse for a human, or an American. Make you own place in the world rather than being a lame butt parasite.

Nobody said it would be easy and you're not entitled to anything. Go earn it.

Wow.

I'm sorry, but are you not aware of how seniority works?

See in our industry, having a good career or moving up the chain has nothing to do with hard work and respect, it's all about timing and good luck. If you get hired at the right place and the right time, you have a good career. If you get hired in the back end of a boom or keep getting furloughed, your career sucks.

In this industry you have to wait your turn to upgrade, get better aircraft, have a better schedule. Most guys are great to fly with, but their are a lot of rejects out there too. Some guys don't deserve a fourth stripe by their behavior, ethics, or job ability. I'm a left seater, but on occasion I swing gear for a more senior captain. Sometimes I get frustrated by flying under the command of someone who has no right to be there. Not because they are old, but because their ability lacks.

You want guys to earn their place? Well how about we upgrade based on merit and ability, not just because you're next in line. Being a captain has everything to do with knowledge, levelheadedness, and ability. Some don't have this.

And about old age. If you have the ability to hold command, great, it will be a pleasure flying with you. If you are working because this is your "fun job" or "your retirement job" (things I have heard "retired" guys say) than I question their overall dedication and drive versus a career individual. And with some, it shows.

 

[gret]

I get it and agree with most everything you said.

My point, and I probably didn't articulate this very well, is getting a promotion by pushing somebody to retire isn't very classy and is counter intuitive to what most people in a capitalistic society believe in. If you sign up for a career as a pilot, you have to realize that the work rules are different and promotions don't always come based on merit. It is a choice you made. You can apply the same thing to unions, some people like working within an organized labor workplace and others don't. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, it is just different and isn't suited for everyone.

One should stop blaming others for their situation and instead, do something about it. If you don't like the system, then you made the wrong choice and you should either change careers or start your own business.

 

[gunfyter]

if they ever made that VM buyout plan a permanent ... there would be no way in hell I'd work past 65....

 

[CALRepublic]

I get it and agree with most everything you said.

My point, and I probably didn't articulate this very well, is getting a promotion by pushing somebody to retire isn't very classy and is counter intuitive to what most people in a capitalistic society believe in. If you sign up for a career as a pilot, you have to realize that the work rules are different and promotions don't always come based on merit. It is a choice you made. You can apply the same thing to unions, some people like working within an organized labor workplace and others don't. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad, it is just different and isn't suited for everyone.

One should stop blaming others for their situation and instead, do something about it. If you don't like the system, then you made the wrong choice and you should either change careers or start your own business.

I see what you're saying, fair enough, but:

i know a couple of guys at NJ, both pushing 70 (one can't even hear anymore) and nobody likes flying with him because he can't do the job anymore, he has a hard time in the simulator as it is... They have their bids in for a particular type of airplane. They're waiting for their seniority number to come up. The company is going to spend a lot of money to type these two and maybe get a year out of them....

How do you feel about that???

and don't worry these two are not going anywhere, they've made that very clear, they're "having too much fun". They will be around for as long as their medical holds up.

 

[Helmsalee]

Gret,
I often have problems with your posts, but this one is excellent. Well done.
Helm

 

[NachoMamma]

i know a couple of guys at NJ, both pushing 70 (one can't even hear anymore) and nobody likes flying with him because he can't do the job anymore, he has a hard time in the simulator as it is...

If this is accurate, then what I can't understand is why we have so many spineless pilots at NJ who fly with these people, personally witness this crap, and then cower back to their homes without saying a word to anyone (the company, union, FAA, etc.) that might be able to do something about them. There is a generally a belief out there that "yeah, he's dangerous and incompetent, but I only have to fly with this guy for three more days and then I'll probably never see him again." Unreal.

If you witness unsafe, dangerous incompetence from ANY crewmember (geriatric or not), the worst thing you can do is keep quiet. If more people around here had a sack, these clowns wouldn't be employed here anymore...they'd be flipping burgers where they belong. The union would be forced to deal with them based on the sheer number of complaints and this company (and the safety of the general public) would be better off for it.

 

[gret]

I see what you're saying, fair enough, but:

i know a couple of guys at NJ, both pushing 70 (one can't even hear anymore) and nobody likes flying with him because he can't do the job anymore, he has a hard time in the simulator as it is... They have their bids in for a particular type of airplane. They're waiting for their seniority number to come up. The company is going to spend a lot of money to type these two and maybe get a year out of them....

How do you feel about that???

and don't worry these two are not going anywhere, they've made that very clear, they're "having too much fun". They will be around for as long as their medical holds up.

Should be gone!...because of performance, not because of reaching a certain age (same opinion would be expressed if they were pushing 40).

Judgement has to come into play and it would be careless and reckless to leave someone like this in a flying job, if this is the case.

 

[gret]

Gret,
I often have problems with your posts, but this one is excellent. Well done.
Helm

Thanks man!

We don't always have to agree (occasionally our thoughts are not put into words precisely the way we think), but I do believe we are usually working toward the same goal.

 

[pilotyip]

no one has menetioned the age discrimination law suit that might follow if you made decision based upon age only

 

[Jack Mehoff]

If this is accurate, then what I can't understand is why we have so many spineless pilots at NJ who fly with these people, personally witness this crap, and then cower back to their homes without saying a word to anyone (the company, union, FAA, etc.) that might be able to do something about them. There is a generally a belief out there that "yeah, he's dangerous and incompetent, but I only have to fly with this guy for three more days and then I'll probably never see him again." Unreal.

If you witness unsafe, dangerous incompetence from ANY crewmember (geriatric or not), the worst thing you can do is keep quiet. If more people around here had a sack, these clowns wouldn't be employed here anymore...they'd be flipping burgers where they belong. The union would be forced to deal with them based on the sheer number of complaints and this company (and the safety of the general public) would be better off for it.

Pilots have spoke up and when I was there so did I about a few Capts past their prime. The union didn't do anything about it. NJASAP is like the AARP because thats where the most dues are coming from.

 

[NachoMamma]

Pilots have spoke up and when I was there so did I about a few Capts past their prime. The union didn't do anything about it. NJASAP is like the AARP because thats where the most dues are coming from.

Did you file an ASAP report? That'll get their attention. It is common knowledge that Pro Standards at NJ is well beyond worthless. There are other means.

 

[jppt2000]

Did you file an ASAP report? That'll get their attention. It is common knowledge that Pro Standards at NJ is well beyond worthless. There are other means.

Wow,
Tough talk from someone who hides in anonymity.
When one files the ASAP report, be sure to write you're acting on the advice from someone on an internet message board. That will really get "their" attention.
Tough talk from folks who won't take ownership of what they post on the union board.

 

[NachoMamma]

Wow,
Tough talk from someone who hides in anonymity.
When one files the ASAP report, be sure to write you're acting on the advice from someone on an internet message board. That will really get "their" attention.
Tough talk from folks who won't take ownership of what they post on the union board.

Not sure why you think that's "tough talk"...unless you're in the Pro-Standards committee and took offense to my (very valid) assessment of it's effectiveness. If that hurt your feelings, well too bad...get over it. As for anonymity, myself as well as others have posted plenty of times on the company board with regard to filing ASAP reports as a means of documenting and eventually correcting crewmember performance at NJ. Facts are facts...no anonymity required. If Pro-Standards was worth two ********************s (and it isn't), then filing said report wouldn't be necessary.

 

[jppt2000]

Not sure why you think that's "tough talk"...unless you're in the Pro-Standards committee and took offense to my (very valid) assessment of it's effectiveness. If that hurt your feelings, well too bad...get over it. As for anonymity, myself as well as others have posted plenty of times on the company board with regard to filing ASAP reports as a means of documenting and eventually correcting crewmember performance at NJ. Facts are facts...no anonymity required. If Pro-Standards was worth two ********************s (and it isn't), then filing said report wouldn't be necessary.

Water down the effectiveness of a great safety mechanism to further one's own selfish interests.
Maybe pro standards handles issues in a fair and evenhanded manner.
Odds are they don't resolve things to everyone's satisfaction.
Oh yeah, the folks (tough talkers) on the union board you speak of, ran for cover when they were challenged.
So, they come here and hide.

 

[realityman]

Pilots have spoke up and when I was there so did I about a few Capts past their prime. The union didn't do anything about it. NJASAP is like the AARP because thats where the most dues are coming from.

Actually, that's not accurate. The vast majority of our pilots are NOT all that old. Nice try at putting rhetoric in front of facts though.

Addressing the union not doing anything about it. What would you suggest they do? The union has no power in firing anyone, that's a power reserved for management. Unions can do a lot of good for a workforce. But they aren't a panacea for everything. In fact, the good they do does come with a few downsides too. Duty of Fair Representation is one of them. I highly doubt our union could go to bat to get a dues paying member fired without some very serious legal ramifications. Unions have a LEGAL OBLIGATION to protect even the weakest members. It is definitely a downside to a union. But sometimes you have to accept a little bad to obtain a lot of good.

Anyway, the union can't do much about a weak pilot, regardless of age. If you really feel someone is a safety risk, it is the company's responsibility to do something about it. If they won't take action, not seeing how that's a failure of the union. Pro standards has proven to be very effective in many cases. But with a weak pilot, what would you have them do? Tell the guy to retire? And if he doesn't? Should they report him to the company with second-hand info? Well, there's that whole tiny legal problem again of PROTECTING dues payers, not helping end their careers.

As I said, it's really the company's problem. Not everything can be, or should be, nailed down as a union problem. If it's truly a safety issue, use the ASAP program. Now it's the company AND FAA's problem. If the pilot really sucks, the problem may also be with the training facility that keep passing him(FSI). Or the instructor pilots who keep pushing him through the checks and/or IOE. And as others have said, maybe it's other pilot's fault for not reporting a weak pilot. A couple reports won't do much. It usually takes a bunch of reports to get action. And I've personally seen the company take action when they get enough complaints. Not sure why so many people want to lay all the problems at the feet of the union.

And to stay on the thread topic, this should apply across the spectrum to pilots of all ages, not just pilots of a certain advanced age.

 

[pilotyip]

And to stay on the thread topic,

which is "Get out of my seat"

 

[Hamburger]

Two more years and you can look forward to using illegal age discrimination to kick guys out of THEIR seats and take THEIR jobs. Notice I didn't say YOUR jobs...THEIR jobs.

Is that what you said to the guys who vacated a seat so that YOU could upgrade? Just curious. After all, it's not your seat, it actually belongs to 98 year old guy who was forced to retire in 1973... How dare you age descrminate against a guy born in 1913!!!

Given that YOU changed the rules for YOUR personal benefit and all that those behind you want it the exact same opportunity YOU had (before YOU took it away from them).....How do you call some one else the "entitlement generation" with a straight face?

Baby Boomers are a swarm of locust. They feel entitled to more than their parents had, and if they have to steal it from their own children, so be it.

They have left nothing but havoc in their wake and have the audacity to blame their children for the consequences of their actions.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Given that YOU changed the rules for YOUR personal benefit and all that those behind you want it the exact same opportunity YOU had (before YOU took it away from them).....How do you call some one else the "entitlement generation" with a straight face?

The fallacy of your argument is that I'm not over Age 60. Oops.

 

[jppt2000]

The fallacy of your argument is that I'm not over Age 60. Oops.

oh snap!

 

[Fubijaakr]

The other fact that the "Gimmes" forget is EVERYONE'S career advancement got pushed back 5 years. Of course EVERYONE'S career also got extended 5 years.

Even Hamburger's.

 

[T-1GUY]

The other fact that the "Gimmes" forget is EVERYONE'S career advancement got pushed back 5 years. Of course EVERYONE'S career also got extended 5 years.

Even Hamburger's.

Wow, so I now I get the priviledge of working five more years ?? That sounds like a screw job to me...

 

[Fubijaakr]

Wow, so I now I get the priviledge of working five more years ?? That sounds like a screw job to me...

You can retire anytime you want. Tomorrow, in fact. Go for it.

However, some of us regard Age 65 as an opportunity to regain our top five earning potential years.

 

[gret]

Wow, so I now I get the priviledge of working five more years ?? That sounds like a screw job to me...

You know..everyone I know who is retired, pilots and others, are completely miserable so be careful what you wish for. You lose relevancy when you retire as to most things you have done during your adult life and you have to find new things that make living worthwhile. Most can't adjust.

I speak the truth becasue I live in Florida, am a long way from age 65, and spend a lot of time on the Internet.

Think about it. Work is our life blood and is the social aspect of most people's lives. The truth is that our spouses don't want to see us 24/7. We simply aren't that special.

Finally, what would you have to b*tch about if you didn't work?

 

[tailwindz]

You know..everyone I know who is retired, pilots and others, are completely miserable so be careful what you wish for. You lose relevancy when you retire as to most things you have done during your adult life and you have to find new things that make living worthwhile. Most can't adjust.

I speak the truth becasue I live in Florida, am a long way from age 65, and spend a lot of time on the Internet.

Think about it. Work is our life blood and is the social aspect of most people's lives. The truth is that our spouses don't want to see us 24/7. We simply aren't that special.

Finally, what would you have to b*tch about if you didn't work?

That may be true for you and those that view themselves as pilots.

Being a pilot is merely what I do to earn a living, it is not who I am. I don't even think about an airplane from the time I get off the employee bus until I have to go back to the factory. I m not trying to be a smart a$$. Try it.

When I am off I don't wear a watch, I don't care what day it is. As long as the sun is shining, the water is warm, fish in the ocean, the boat is running, beer in the cooler, my a$$ in the sand, Life is a good day. Really, try it.

 

[Helmsalee]

Then you have kids.

 

[727C47]

hey,i'm a pilot,and i'm one of those geeks who live eat ,and breath it,when i'm not in a work cockpit,i'm flying a C47 for the joy of it,when retirement comes, a simple 7AC Champ to fly,and tinker with will suit me fine,especially NORDO ,off a grass field,to each their own.

 

[pilotyip]

choice man choice

Wow, so I now I get the priviledge of working five more years ?? That sounds like a screw job to me...

no you now have the priviledge of choice, to do as you would please

 

[Helmsalee]

727C47, amen. To Tailwindz, not everyone sees it like you. Nothing wrong with salt water, fish and so forth, but there are other points of view. I, personally, would love to fish and fly. BTW, a Champ would be great.
Helm

 

[T-1GUY]

I consider going to work to be an interruption of my free time....

 

[OPECJet]

I consider going to work to be an interruption of my free time....

Same here, but not working puts a considerable dent in what you can do with that free time.

The last year has proven to me I'd be an excellent lottery winner! Time to go back to work though...