Age 60 informal poll

[Flopgut]

Poor argument. If you can pass the medical and the proficiency and line checks, you are obviously capable. There is just an bogus rule that mandates that your employment is terminated at age 60, which is in debate. I will partially agree with your "NO difference at 65 and 70", but I am certain that most would go out on their own terms at or before 65.

If the pilot can no longer do the job, his/her fellow pilots must speak up, regardless if they are 25 or 60+.

If you can pass trng and medicals that means you can still fly, but not FAR 121 PIC. There will be an age limit to that and it will be equally "bogus" no matter what it is, I'm glad you agree. I disagree with you that most will go "at or before 65". I'm certain if we change this once, we'll suffer the cries for age change again. Fix the financial concerns, then they'll retire.

 

[pipe]

If you choose to resort to childish namecalling, I believe that you have only identified yourself as challenged.

If one cannot do the job they should retire, if not be fired. A baseless, government mandated end to one's career is not retirement. Benefits in retirement are not guaranteed nor are they consistent from carrier to carrier. You seem to know UF and Klako well enough to Judge them quite harshly. For all I know you have spent a good deal of time with both and those judgements may be warranted. But you are far from capable of determining the values and motivations of all who are pro change.

Didn't call anyone a name. Reread.

 

[dsee8driver]

Guys/Gals....

I myself stand to benefit if the rule is NOT changed. Reading all the posts regarding safety and monetary issues I am left to wonder this. ICAO has changed their age limits, therefore, international carriers will have over 60 pilots flying in the US. Now I'm left to wonder that if the FAA does not change the rule to follow ICAO and blame it on safety, will our govement come out and issue a safety warning to Americans flying international carriers about the age 60 pilots and how will this sit with foreign goverments? We get warnings now issued on other carriers maintenance safety so why not one on pilot issues.

 

[SuperFLUF]

...........And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

OK, this is too much. FIRED? Enough with the junior high school girlie drama queen act.

You have known that this day was coming since you began working. If you counted on the age being changed to fund your life you are a fool.

Losing you pension truly sucks and is a travesty, BUT if you counted on any more than the PBGC mins for your retirement it was a gamble and again you are a fool. If you didn't educate yourself on how much of your pension was actually guaranteed then you are a fool. (see a recurring theme here?)

If you can not provide for your family after the date that you have known you would retire for the past 30+ years (you did start saving for retirement as soon as you got your first job right?) then YOU have let them down and you are a fool.

Yes, an arbitrary age for retirement in theory is discrimination. Yes, I believe that it will probably change in the next few years, BUT your piss poor attitude about the detrimental effects to the majority of your fellow professional aviators is selfish and pompus.

 

[Bake]

Panel Splits on Raising Airline Pilot Retirement Age (Update2)

By John Hughes

Nov. 30 (Bloomberg) -- A U.S. government panel couldn't agree whether the retirement age for airline pilots should be raised to 65 from 60, calling the issue ``contentious.''

If the Federal Aviation Administration does lift the age, pilots who are already retired shouldn't be allowed to return to work, the panel said in a report to the agency in Washington.

The split leaves FAA Administrator Marion Blakey without an industry consensus as she decides whether to change the agency's 47-year practice of forcing pilots to retire at age 60. Prodded by some pilots and lawmakers to change the age limit, she named the panel on Sept. 27 to advise her by late November.

``It's basically a tie,'' said Washington-based consultant Clay Foushee, a former vice president of operations at Northwest Airlines Corp. ``It doesn't really help clarify the matter at all. It's a very politically difficult situation for the administrator.''

Pilots who have had pension benefits pared as U.S. airlines struggled financially have been pushing to work longer to make up at least some of the difference. Younger pilots who want more opportunities for promotions tend to oppose a higher age.

No Recommendation

``The age 60 issue remains contentious for the commercial aviation industry,'' said the panelists, who included airline representatives and pilot union leaders. Their report made no recommendation on raising the age and devoted roughly equal space to the pro and con views of a change.

The FAA received the report yesterday and hasn't released it publicly, spokeswoman Laura Brown said. ``We appreciate the hard work of the committee,'' Brown said. ``We're reviewing it.'' Bloomberg News obtained a copy today.

Six panel members opposed raising the age, including four representatives of the Air Line Pilots Association, the world's largest pilot union. The panelists from AMR Corp.'s American Airlines and its Allied Pilots Association also opposed any change.

The four panelists who favored raising the age were from Southwest Airlines Co., JetBlue Airways Corp., the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association and a group called Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination.

``This breaks down along some predictable lines,'' said William Voss, chief executive officer of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Virginia. ``This isn't going to help Marion Blakey very much.''

Neutral Leaders

Some panelists didn't endorse either view in the report, including the co-chairs, Jim May, president of the Air Transport Association airline industry trade group and Duane Woerth, president of the Airline Pilots Association. Both men declined to comment through their spokesmen.

A representative of the Aerospace Medical Association, filed a separate opinion that ``age should not be the sole criterion'' for disqualifying airline pilots. The advisory panel began with 14 industry members and added two more, according to its report.

The group's lone recommendation is that the FAA not change the age retroactively. ``Any element of retroactivity would add more complexity to the issue and make it almost impossible for any agreement on implementation,'' according to the report.

Pressure to raise the age has come from U.S. lawmakers such as Oklahoma Republican Senator James Inhofe, himself a 72-year- old private pilot. The Senate Appropriations Committee in July approved lifting the age to 65 as part of a $69 billion budget bill. That legislation still hasn't been enacted into law.

Other Countries

Countries such as Australia that allow older pilots to fly and wanted them to be able to cross other nations' airspace also want the U.S. to lift the age.

The International Civil Aviation Organization, which recommends global air-safety standards, adopted a standard that nations should allow pilots to fly to age 65 as long as the other pilot in the cockpit is younger than 60. The change took effect Nov. 23, which means older pilots on foreign airlines can fly in U.S. skies, if allowed by their carriers and governments.

Airline pilots currently flying over age 60 include 18 with Japan Airlines Corp., 20 with Qantas Airways Ltd., 35 at SAS Group and 20 at Air New Zealand Ltd., according to an Oct. 12 letter from the International Federation of Air Lines Pilots Associations. The letter was included in the report.

``Age alone is a very poor discriminator of risk of incapacitation,'' said Voss, former director of ICAO's air navigation bureau who worked on the age-60 issue. ``We should end the debate on what the right age is and start a new debate on how do we evaluate risk of incapacitation with current, modern medical methods.''

Foushee, a consultant with Zuckert Scoutt and Rasenberger LLP in Washington, said he had hoped the FAA panelists' decisions ``would be made more on technical and physiological grounds, rather than political grounds.''

To contact the reporter on this story: John Hughes in Washington [email protected] .
Last Updated: November 30, 200618:38 EST

 

[FNG_that's me]

Moved to the new thread.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Just a few comments from someone over 60. Actually over 65 now.
1. I did not know of the age 60 rule when I hired on the airlines and as soon as I found out I thought way back then that it wasn't right. The reason it wasn't right was why it came about. (research that)
2. The PBGC started in 1974. I started in 1965 with Allegheny.
3. The PBGC to this day CANNOT figure correctly what is due the pilots that it pays. Ask me how I know?
4. The govt made me wait til I was 65 and 8 months to collect Social Security. I wonder why I couldn't collect it at age 60?
5. I have been flying a Citation X since I retired and still going strong. There are a few hundred retirees that I work with and they seem to be just fine with being able to do the job. Some need the money and some just like to fly.

Conclusion: I think age 65 for 121 is a good limit. I heard this past week that my grand-daughter has a life expectantcy of over 100. That means that if she chose to be an airline pilot that she would more than likely have a longer retired life than a career as an airline pilot. Seems to me that your working life is just going to have to be longer.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Andy]

I did not know of the age 60 rule when I hired on the airlines and as soon as I found out I thought way back then that it wasn't right. The reason it wasn't right was why it came about. (research that)

Pilot age has been discussed as a concern in commercial since at least the Doolittle Commission in the early 50s (published 16 May 1952). The Doolittle Commission recommended a thorough study by the Aero Medical Association. A Committee on Pilot Aging was formed in 1953.
Here is some text from their initial report in 1954:
"The primary objectives of the Committee are as follows: (1) to compile the findings of various research studies which have both a direct and indirect bearing on the problem of pilot aging; (2) to initiate research in this field so as to anticipate the problems which might be expected to arise in the near future; and (3) to suggest various practical procedures which might be developed to prolong useful lives of pilots and to assist in making eventual retirement a constructive and successful step in their careers. Possibly the most important problem to be investigated in the various aspects of the research program is to set up practical criteria for determining “when the psychological and physiological changes which are known to occur during the aging process are no longer compensated for by skill, judgment, and experience.”

I haven't found their followup reports, but I would suspect that they had a great deal of weight in the establishment of the age 60 rule. That conspiracy story about Quesada and CR Smith has been around for a long time, but it is in no way based in fact.
When Quesada was appointed the first Administrator of the FAA by Eisenhower, his orders were to make the commercial airline industry safer. Any and all items were on the table.
Quesada succeeded in lowering commercial aviation accident rates. You may not like the rules, but there is no question that he accomplished his task.

 

[Flopgut]

Just a few comments from someone over 60. Actually over 65 now.
1. I did not know of the age 60 rule when I hired on the airlines and as soon as I found out I thought way back then that it wasn't right. The reason it wasn't right was why it came about. (research that)
2. The PBGC started in 1974. I started in 1965 with Allegheny.
3. The PBGC to this day CANNOT figure correctly what is due the pilots that it pays. Ask me how I know?
4. The govt made me wait til I was 65 and 8 months to collect Social Security. I wonder why I couldn't collect it at age 60?
5. I have been flying a Citation X since I retired and still going strong. There are a few hundred retirees that I work with and they seem to be just fine with being able to do the job. Some need the money and some just like to fly.

Conclusion: I think age 65 for 121 is a good limit. I heard this past week that my grand-daughter has a life expectantcy of over 100. That means that if she chose to be an airline pilot that she would more than likely have a longer retired life than a career as an airline pilot. Seems to me that your working life is just going to have to be longer.

Just my thoughts.

Are you NJA?

 

[Andy]

Now lets talk about you and how tough it is. You have just accepted recall to only go on militry leave. This is all part of your plan to become a two career double dipper that takes advantage of the military LOA laws. And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

I haven't mentioned any problems that I've had with the military, but sure, let's talk for a bit. 1 through 15 November, I ended up in a points only, no pay status (ask a patriot what that means). That's the second time this year that I've been in a points only status due to having my title 10 orders screwed up. That's right, I've worked for free for almost a month so far this year.
I am now TDY; we left on Saturday, two days after Thanksgiving. I will return home on Sunday. I will be at work Monday morning. I do not get comp time for my time on the road. How much do I travel? I'll make 1K status this year. And United isn't the only airline that I've flown.
Fortunately, I get put up in decent hotels nowadays. I'm a Starwood Platinum, Marriott Gold (will be platinum this month), Radisson Gold, Hilton Silver, and have some sort of status with a couple of other hotel chains. That means that I spend a LOT of time on the road - again, zero comp time for being gone on weekends. I must say that I'm a lot happier with my current accomodations than back when I lived in a tent with eight of my closest buddies at Prince Sultan Air Base for extended periods of time. Starting with my first Southwest Asia TDY back in August 1989 (do some research to figure out why I was there), I have easily spent more than 2 years in Southwest Asia if you string my TDYs together. I was in Qatar this last spring where I was doubled up in a room. For more than a month. When's the last time that you had to share a room with a coworker?

I am extremely proud for all of the time that I have served in the military and am very happy in my current job. You have absolutely no idea of the sacrifices that those of us in uniform make. But I'm not going to complain about any of my sacrifices, nor am I going to cry about them on a public forum. It's the price I pay to be surrounded by honorable coworkers. And you have not earned the right to deride my military service record.

For those that fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.

 

[Phaedrus]

A very Heinlein-ish tagline, Citizen Andy. Thanks for your service.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

You have absolutely no idea of the sacrifices that those of us in uniform make.

So how would you feel if you had really been in battle in Vietnam, got your a$$ shot at in the jungle, a few metals and a Purple Heart only to find that the foreign pilots are in this country flying with a waiver of the age 60 rule but not this country's veterans? Andy, I applaud your service, but don't you think that your service should give you some right over at least foreigners for whatever it is regarding a right to earn a living in THIS country?

Is this what the Vietnam vets fought for, to be insulted by smart a$$ kids that want their seat while the foreign pilots steal our livelihood?

 

[Andy]

So how would you feel if you had really been in battle in Vietnam, got your a$$ shot at in the jungle, a few metals and a Purple Heart only to find that the foreign pilots are in this country flying with a waiver of the age 60 rule but not this country's veterans? Andy, I applaud your service, but don't you think that your service should give you some right over at least foreigners for whatever it is regarding a right to earn a living in THIS country?

Is this what the Vietnam vets fought for, to be insulted by smart a$$ kids that want their seat while the foreign pilots steal our livelihood?

You're not a veteran. And you're certainly not a Vietnam veteran.

I love how you dance around the subject, giving many the impression that you're a veteran. Truly bottomfeeder stuff. uke:

As for medals, I've got enough to be mistaken for a banana republic dictator.
As for the part about getting shot at, the only reason why I'm still here and not shark food is because, at the times I've been intercepted by fully armed aircraft from unfriendly countries, no one gave the orders to shoot me down. Ever fly a big 'ol spyplane (RC-135) in international waters off the coast of a not so friendly country with a couple of fully armed fighter aircraft flying wingtip then dropping back to your six? I have. There was a reason why we joked about being alone, unafraid, and unarmed.
Ever orbit in a flying gas station (KC-135) less than 20 miles off of the Kuwaiti border with no known air cover, no rwr gear, no radio frequency to monitor from AWACs, refueling F-18s off of the Indy (about the only fighters in theater) just a couple of weeks after Saddam decided that he needed another province with a scared boom operator who wore his parachute on every flight? I have. And I told the boomer not to worry about the parachute; if they fired a missile, we wouldn't know about it; it'd be instant lights out. If they strafed us with their guns, the last thing that we'd hear would be the bullets ripping through the fuselage.
I've got a funny story from the Aug '89 TDY; you can steal it so that you can play veteran somewhere else. We were sitting there in our orbit when I see a fighter coming at us coaltitude beak to beak. Before I could do anything, he pushes over and passes below us. Instantly, the boom operator yells on the intercom, 'what the fukk was that?!!! I just had a plane fill my entire sight window.' My AC's answer 'our receiver.' Shortly thereafter, there was a quick call on air refueling freq. "sorry 'bout that; had a recip heading."
I've got a bunch more stories, but I'm too old to remember all of them. Tell me more about these smart a$$ kids. :nuts:
Dammed good thing that I've never been in a battle in Vietnam.

Don't even imply that you've served even a day in uniform. You haven't. uke:

 

[vetrider]

Those Vietnam vets are also part of the reason Undaunted and alot of others like him got hired at age 21 or 22 back in the mid to late 60s. All those vets were serving their country so the airlines had to scour the colleges for recruits.

Not that I was doing anything but soiling my diapers back then, but I had a Korean War veteran who was also a United pilot tell me that.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Andy: This is the question that you failed to answer.

I applaud your service, but don't you think that your service should give you some right over at least foreigners for whatever it is regarding a right to earn a living in THIS country?