Age 60 informal poll

[FNG_that's me]

Moved to the new thread.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Just a few comments from someone over 60. Actually over 65 now.
1. I did not know of the age 60 rule when I hired on the airlines and as soon as I found out I thought way back then that it wasn't right. The reason it wasn't right was why it came about. (research that)
2. The PBGC started in 1974. I started in 1965 with Allegheny.
3. The PBGC to this day CANNOT figure correctly what is due the pilots that it pays. Ask me how I know?
4. The govt made me wait til I was 65 and 8 months to collect Social Security. I wonder why I couldn't collect it at age 60?
5. I have been flying a Citation X since I retired and still going strong. There are a few hundred retirees that I work with and they seem to be just fine with being able to do the job. Some need the money and some just like to fly.

Conclusion: I think age 65 for 121 is a good limit. I heard this past week that my grand-daughter has a life expectantcy of over 100. That means that if she chose to be an airline pilot that she would more than likely have a longer retired life than a career as an airline pilot. Seems to me that your working life is just going to have to be longer.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Andy]

I did not know of the age 60 rule when I hired on the airlines and as soon as I found out I thought way back then that it wasn't right. The reason it wasn't right was why it came about. (research that)

Pilot age has been discussed as a concern in commercial since at least the Doolittle Commission in the early 50s (published 16 May 1952). The Doolittle Commission recommended a thorough study by the Aero Medical Association. A Committee on Pilot Aging was formed in 1953.
Here is some text from their initial report in 1954:
"The primary objectives of the Committee are as follows: (1) to compile the findings of various research studies which have both a direct and indirect bearing on the problem of pilot aging; (2) to initiate research in this field so as to anticipate the problems which might be expected to arise in the near future; and (3) to suggest various practical procedures which might be developed to prolong useful lives of pilots and to assist in making eventual retirement a constructive and successful step in their careers. Possibly the most important problem to be investigated in the various aspects of the research program is to set up practical criteria for determining “when the psychological and physiological changes which are known to occur during the aging process are no longer compensated for by skill, judgment, and experience.”

I haven't found their followup reports, but I would suspect that they had a great deal of weight in the establishment of the age 60 rule. That conspiracy story about Quesada and CR Smith has been around for a long time, but it is in no way based in fact.
When Quesada was appointed the first Administrator of the FAA by Eisenhower, his orders were to make the commercial airline industry safer. Any and all items were on the table.
Quesada succeeded in lowering commercial aviation accident rates. You may not like the rules, but there is no question that he accomplished his task.

 

[Flopgut]

Just a few comments from someone over 60. Actually over 65 now.
1. I did not know of the age 60 rule when I hired on the airlines and as soon as I found out I thought way back then that it wasn't right. The reason it wasn't right was why it came about. (research that)
2. The PBGC started in 1974. I started in 1965 with Allegheny.
3. The PBGC to this day CANNOT figure correctly what is due the pilots that it pays. Ask me how I know?
4. The govt made me wait til I was 65 and 8 months to collect Social Security. I wonder why I couldn't collect it at age 60?
5. I have been flying a Citation X since I retired and still going strong. There are a few hundred retirees that I work with and they seem to be just fine with being able to do the job. Some need the money and some just like to fly.

Conclusion: I think age 65 for 121 is a good limit. I heard this past week that my grand-daughter has a life expectantcy of over 100. That means that if she chose to be an airline pilot that she would more than likely have a longer retired life than a career as an airline pilot. Seems to me that your working life is just going to have to be longer.

Just my thoughts.

Are you NJA?

 

[Andy]

Now lets talk about you and how tough it is. You have just accepted recall to only go on militry leave. This is all part of your plan to become a two career double dipper that takes advantage of the military LOA laws. And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

I haven't mentioned any problems that I've had with the military, but sure, let's talk for a bit. 1 through 15 November, I ended up in a points only, no pay status (ask a patriot what that means). That's the second time this year that I've been in a points only status due to having my title 10 orders screwed up. That's right, I've worked for free for almost a month so far this year.
I am now TDY; we left on Saturday, two days after Thanksgiving. I will return home on Sunday. I will be at work Monday morning. I do not get comp time for my time on the road. How much do I travel? I'll make 1K status this year. And United isn't the only airline that I've flown.
Fortunately, I get put up in decent hotels nowadays. I'm a Starwood Platinum, Marriott Gold (will be platinum this month), Radisson Gold, Hilton Silver, and have some sort of status with a couple of other hotel chains. That means that I spend a LOT of time on the road - again, zero comp time for being gone on weekends. I must say that I'm a lot happier with my current accomodations than back when I lived in a tent with eight of my closest buddies at Prince Sultan Air Base for extended periods of time. Starting with my first Southwest Asia TDY back in August 1989 (do some research to figure out why I was there), I have easily spent more than 2 years in Southwest Asia if you string my TDYs together. I was in Qatar this last spring where I was doubled up in a room. For more than a month. When's the last time that you had to share a room with a coworker?

I am extremely proud for all of the time that I have served in the military and am very happy in my current job. You have absolutely no idea of the sacrifices that those of us in uniform make. But I'm not going to complain about any of my sacrifices, nor am I going to cry about them on a public forum. It's the price I pay to be surrounded by honorable coworkers. And you have not earned the right to deride my military service record.

For those that fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.

 

[Phaedrus]

A very Heinlein-ish tagline, Citizen Andy. Thanks for your service.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

You have absolutely no idea of the sacrifices that those of us in uniform make.

So how would you feel if you had really been in battle in Vietnam, got your a$$ shot at in the jungle, a few metals and a Purple Heart only to find that the foreign pilots are in this country flying with a waiver of the age 60 rule but not this country's veterans? Andy, I applaud your service, but don't you think that your service should give you some right over at least foreigners for whatever it is regarding a right to earn a living in THIS country?

Is this what the Vietnam vets fought for, to be insulted by smart a$$ kids that want their seat while the foreign pilots steal our livelihood?

 

[Andy]

So how would you feel if you had really been in battle in Vietnam, got your a$$ shot at in the jungle, a few metals and a Purple Heart only to find that the foreign pilots are in this country flying with a waiver of the age 60 rule but not this country's veterans? Andy, I applaud your service, but don't you think that your service should give you some right over at least foreigners for whatever it is regarding a right to earn a living in THIS country?

Is this what the Vietnam vets fought for, to be insulted by smart a$$ kids that want their seat while the foreign pilots steal our livelihood?

You're not a veteran. And you're certainly not a Vietnam veteran.

I love how you dance around the subject, giving many the impression that you're a veteran. Truly bottomfeeder stuff. uke:

As for medals, I've got enough to be mistaken for a banana republic dictator.
As for the part about getting shot at, the only reason why I'm still here and not shark food is because, at the times I've been intercepted by fully armed aircraft from unfriendly countries, no one gave the orders to shoot me down. Ever fly a big 'ol spyplane (RC-135) in international waters off the coast of a not so friendly country with a couple of fully armed fighter aircraft flying wingtip then dropping back to your six? I have. There was a reason why we joked about being alone, unafraid, and unarmed.
Ever orbit in a flying gas station (KC-135) less than 20 miles off of the Kuwaiti border with no known air cover, no rwr gear, no radio frequency to monitor from AWACs, refueling F-18s off of the Indy (about the only fighters in theater) just a couple of weeks after Saddam decided that he needed another province with a scared boom operator who wore his parachute on every flight? I have. And I told the boomer not to worry about the parachute; if they fired a missile, we wouldn't know about it; it'd be instant lights out. If they strafed us with their guns, the last thing that we'd hear would be the bullets ripping through the fuselage.
I've got a funny story from the Aug '89 TDY; you can steal it so that you can play veteran somewhere else. We were sitting there in our orbit when I see a fighter coming at us coaltitude beak to beak. Before I could do anything, he pushes over and passes below us. Instantly, the boom operator yells on the intercom, 'what the fukk was that?!!! I just had a plane fill my entire sight window.' My AC's answer 'our receiver.' Shortly thereafter, there was a quick call on air refueling freq. "sorry 'bout that; had a recip heading."
I've got a bunch more stories, but I'm too old to remember all of them. Tell me more about these smart a$$ kids. :nuts:
Dammed good thing that I've never been in a battle in Vietnam.

Don't even imply that you've served even a day in uniform. You haven't. uke:

 

[vetrider]

Those Vietnam vets are also part of the reason Undaunted and alot of others like him got hired at age 21 or 22 back in the mid to late 60s. All those vets were serving their country so the airlines had to scour the colleges for recruits.

Not that I was doing anything but soiling my diapers back then, but I had a Korean War veteran who was also a United pilot tell me that.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Andy: This is the question that you failed to answer.

I applaud your service, but don't you think that your service should give you some right over at least foreigners for whatever it is regarding a right to earn a living in THIS country?

 

[Andy]

You never answer my questions. I'll answer that one when a Vietnam Veteran with a Purple Heart who's been shot at (and can prove it!) asks me the question.

Got any more stories that you've stolen from veterans? uke:

 

[pipe]

UF-

Andy still has the right to go to any one of hundreds-of-thousands of aviation positions after age 60 -- as do you. You retain this right thanks, in part, to Andy's military service.

I will be sure to bid Jan 30 off. That is the day that planes begin falling out of the sky - right?

PIPE

 

[highsky]

Is this what the Vietnam vets fought for, to be insulted by smart a$$ kids that want their seat while the foreign pilots steal our livelihood?

UF

I was furloughed, along with 12,000 other smart a$$ kids, after 9/11. Since then, I've flown over 400 combat hours ingressing/egressing USAF heavies in and out of Baghdad and Balad. I've lost count of how many times I've been shot at and had the $hit scared out of me.

I too would like to know more about those smart a$$ kids.

You Sir, are a complete tool.

Just retire with some honor, for Christ's sake. You've known your whole career about the coming day. Interesting you saved your campaign until you're a senior captain. Where was the passion when you were a furloughed copilot?

 

[Andy]

Andy...You can debate the issues all you want...but I've never heard UF personally deride you, call you names, or wish ill upon you. He debates the issues staying above the belt, and conducts himself as a gentleman on this board IMO. If you're furloughed, he's not the one whose kept you out of a job (he's been in his 50's throughout this exchange)...it's your management that's made some pretty big missteps...and your union is not without blame in this either. You're the one who's sounding like a pompous idiot.

While UF appears to be a class act, you and FD appear to be in class envy....if not class idiots.

You consider people who pose as decorated Vietnam veterans to be class acts? And it isn't the first time in this thread that UF has sunk to this level. As my daughter would say, whatEVER.

 

[pipe]

So how would you feel if you had really been in battle in Vietnam, got your a$$ shot at in the jungle, a few metals and a Purple Heart only to find that the foreign pilots are in this country flying with a waiver of the age 60 rule but not this country's veterans? Andy, I applaud your service, but don't you think that your service should give you some right over at least foreigners for whatever it is regarding a right to earn a living in THIS country?

Is this what the Vietnam vets fought for, to be insulted by smart a$$ kids that want their seat while the foreign pilots steal our livelihood?

Hope you fly better than you write. Learning curve in that area seems to be flat.

I gotta go out to the base and try to earn another "metal" now.

PIPE

 

[Andy]

Just retire with some honor, for Christ's sake.

Too late for that. He's now doing a Don Quixote, chasing windmills.

We're just a bunch of dammed smart a$$ kids. :beer:

 

[Andy]

I gotta go out to the base and try to earn another "metal" now.

ROTFLMAO! Another smart a$$ kid! :beer:

But at least a kid who knows the difference between medal and metal. Maybe he meant metal medal? During Reagan's initial stages of Alzheimers, he was talking to a close friend ... he referred to the books in a room as 'trees' after spending some time trying to find the right word for it.

 

[pipe]

ROTFLMAO! Another smart a$$ kid! :beer:

But at least a kid who knows the difference between medal and metal. Maybe he meant metal medal? During Reagan's initial stages of Alzheimers, he was talking to a close friend ... he referred to the books in a room as 'trees' after spending some time trying to find the right word for it.

I guess the guy is just mentally drained after pushing all that heavy medal all over they sky!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

About half the airline pilots who are reaching age 60 and are being forced to retire are Vietnam vets. I am not one of those, nor did I claim to be be one in any of my prior posts. I am a person who was lucky enough to avoid that nightmare. And that nightmare is all the more reason to give credit to those who had to put up with that war, especially when it was all for nothing.

Now do you recall the Tribune article about Capt. Hinnenkamp. We know that he was one of those that served in Vietnam, but I do remember those, including Andy, who were disrespectful of him for wanting to continue flying. So to you smart a$$es you can not have it both ways. You want something for your service, but don't want to give anything to others who served.

So the question is still out there:

Don't you think that military service, especially in combat, should give that person some right over at least foreigners for whatever it is regarding a right to earn a living in THIS country?

 

[pipe]

It ain't about rights - it's about what's right. You got yours, you want mine. THAT ain't right.

PIPE

"All truths goes through three stages, First, Undaunted flyer posts it. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, he twists it around to serve his personal circumstances."