Age 60 informal poll

[Klako]

Klako:

Your above post is the best I have ever seen on the age 60 issue.

Thank you for your insightful views.

Undaunted Flyer

Thank You UndauntedFlyer!

How can anyone deny the truth?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Wow, burdened. Where is my violin?

Have you taken a look at a Regional CA's paycheck lately? Apparently not. 2K/mo. wouldn't be far from the high average. For many, that may be all that's on the horizon in the immediate future, period. No other benefits to speak of, unless you count "jumpseating" on airplanes that have no jumpseats available. I wonder if the vast majority would consider a 300K cash acct. and a house that's almost paid for much in the way of assets.

No offense, but as someone once said, "That's a pretty arrogant statement considering the company you're in!"

Skyye Candy and others of similar views:

I mean no offense here either, but you have to look at the fact that with the kind of income you have pointed out is the average of the new industry pay rates, I would expect that very few will be able to amass enough money to retire at 60 and live on until 80. That's why 5 more years of earning ability is must in this career. Does anyone really think that they can really save 2M dollars by age 60? Or even one million dollars by age 65. You see, 2 million is what it will take to retire at 60, and 1 to 1.5 million is what it will take to retire at 65.

UndauntedFlyer

 

[Andy]

Andy, you don't like it when the rules change unless it is to your benefit. The age 60 rule was put into place and will change in the near future. The rule that changed 15-20 years ago was the one that you had to be under the age of 32 to be considered by almost any airline in the USA for a pilot position. You were hired at UAL at age 39, lucky you!!! What were you doing from age 18 to 39? Did you decide to become a pilot after you turned age 30? Very poor planning on your part.

Why is your daughter going to a school that costs $37,000 a year in tuition? I just had four children go to Penn State or another PA state school. Harvard or Yale, but Regis in Denver? You pay $37,000 a year in tuition, plus the other expenses and you have done this on savings? I'm impressed, could there be any other source of funds? Some people inherit money, some have grand parents that help, or I guess that some are so talented like you that their money just grows like a weed.:beer:

Foxhunter, I don't like it when we decrease the level of safety in commercial aviation. Please take the time to these two FAA reports:
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_3.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_4.pdf
As described by the Federal Air Surgeon, there is a steep U curve.

"What was I doing from age 18 to 39?" Serving in the Air Force.
"Did you decide to become a pilot after you turned age 30?" I had already been a pilot for several years before I turned age 30.

"Why is your daughter going to a school that costs $37,000 a year in tuition?" Because she wants to be a surgeon and Regis University has an extremely good track record for med school acceptance. Her first choice was NYU, but didn't make the cut. Regis was her safety school. She liked Regis because of the student to teacher ratio; her largest class has less than 50 students. Most have 10 or less. Here's a link: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_1363_brief.php

"You pay $37,000 a year in tuition, plus the other expenses and you have done this on savings?"

$37K/yr includes the whole ball of wax. Tuition, books, room & board, student fees, etc.

As for being able to afford it, my wife and I make ~$150K/yr. My wife doesn't max out her 401k, but I do, so subtract $20K for 401Ks. Subtract another $45K for federal, state, and social security taxes. Subtract another $8K for Roth IRAs. Subtract another $21K for housing (we live in the DC area; it's expensive. But that figure includes utilities). Our cars are paid for.
That leaves us with $56K/yr. Subtract $37K for my daughter's tuition and you've still got $19K remaining. We are dipping into savings ever so slightly.
I'm guessing that after the above, we're spending $2K/month.

It isn't hard if you live responsibly. Give it a try sometime.

 

[Andy]

You see, 2 million is what it will take to retire at 60, and 1 to 1.5 million is what it will take to retire at 65.

UndauntedFlyer

ZOIKS! What are figuring for an annual cash burn rate?
$500K to $1 mil for five years? Not to mention that you should be able to get at least a 5% ROI. So, if you're figuring $1.5 mil at 65 and $2 mil at 60, you're planning on burning through $75K/yr ROI plus $100K/yr. That's $175K/yr! I gotta call BS on your numbers.

Let's take your $2 mil figure. If you live off of the interest and don't touch any principal, you're getting $100K/yr @ 5% ROI (very conservative number). If you think that you need $100K/yr to live on, your budgeting is where the problem lies. You need to adjust to a different lifestyle come 29 January.

 

[miles otoole]

Hey Andy,
What's your daugher look like? I am thinkin' I could retire at 50. (Kidding-just trying to lighten the mood around the subject.)

Many in my family are telecom folks who were sitting on a ton of stock options in the 90s and fully expecting to be able to retire at 55. With the destruction of the telecom industry, including the elimination of hundreds of thousands of jobs, many, many industry professionals in their late 40s and early 50s were all of a sudden competing for jobs with very sharp, savvy 20 Y.O.s Guess who became the preferred hiree? You got it, the new, young guy who was just as qualified.
What did most do? They quickly recognized that it was time to survive. Some became real estate professionals, some went back to school and learned a new career, etc.
The bottom line is that while it's BS that there's an age 60 rule and it has NOTHING to do with medical reasons, age discrimination is in full effect. It's all about money and seniority, err, I mean majority, the real drivers of this F-Up'd industry.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

ZOIKS! What are figuring for an annual cash burn rate?
$500K to $1 mil for five years? Not to mention that you should be able to get at least a 5% ROI. So, if you're figuring $1.5 mil at 65 and $2 mil at 60, you're planning on burning through $75K/yr ROI plus $100K/yr. That's $175K/yr! I gotta call BS on your numbers.

Let's take your $2 mil figure. If you live off of the interest and don't touch any principal, you're getting $100K/yr @ 5% ROI (very conservative number). If you think that you need $100K/yr to live on, your budgeting is where the problem lies. You need to adjust to a different lifestyle come 29 January.

First off, I didn't say I had that kind of money or that I expected to have that amount of money. I said that that is what (the experts say) is required to safely retire at age 60. I also said that a lesser amount is required to retire at age 65. And I said that that amount is nearly impossible to save at the current lower Regional/Majors pay rates, (and certainly impossible if your spouse is a stay at home to better raise the children type.)

So you see this countries transition to defined contribution (401k) retirement plans (for all workers) is becoming a work-until-you-are-no-longer-able-to-work system. Since this is the "retirement plan" of the future for everyone in this country, an age 60 rule for pilots or anyone else is not and can not be be part of such a plan for the future. The age 60 rule for pilots will change soon because of this and the fact that the rest of the world has already changed to an age 65 rule, which forces the USA into compliance. The pressure for change in this country is building fast when one of this nation’s largest newspapers (Chicago Tribune) and other large newspapers cover this inequity and print this as a front page news story. The times are changing in this regard, that is certain.

All the safely arguments about the age 60 rule go out the window when El Al and other international airlines have been flying to age 65 for the past 15 years with no problems. Now the FAA is going to allow these foreign pilots to fly into this country. Cite all the studies you want but the proof of the safety of age 65 is with the rest of the world's experiences. Those experiences prove our countries age 60 rule, while created by the FAA with good intention and with a safety intention, it has now been proven to be unnecessary. So now the age 60 rule is being maintained (by ALPA/APA) for nothing but promotions, and at APA for "retirement" pay for no work and for promotions. This is really nothing more than typical union featherbedding, no different than ALPA’s 3rd man on the 737 from 1968 - 1978 and the "fireman" on a diesel locomotive.

This is now all about steeling your grand parent’s house and throwing them into the street; so the children can have a larger playroom.

 

[Andy]

Hey Andy,
What's your daugher look like? I am thinkin' I could retire at 50. (Kidding-just trying to lighten the mood around the subject.)

I told her that if she needs extra cash, she should consider moonlighting at a strip club (and yes, she could get hired there and make decent money). I said that she'd need to learn how to pole dance, but it was a great way to pay for med school. But she's only 17, so I don't think any strip club's going to hire her.
... and I really did tell her the above; I've got a warped sense of humor.


Your comments on relatives thinking that they were going to be able to retire early reminds me of what will likely happen to a lot of current real estate speculators. The real estate market in the DC area is rapidly collapsing; supply is greatly outstripping demand. A lot of this is because there were so many who bought additional properties to rent out while prices were rising. They were/are highly leveraged. Now that prices have stopped rising and rental prices have gotten very soft, a lot of these speculators are trying to dump their properties. Interest rates aren't helping either.
Currently, most of my investments are parked in cash. The risk/reward ratio in any investment vehicles just isn't worth it. I'd rather be conservative and lose some 'quick money' than lose my money quickly.

 

[Andy]

First off, I didn't say I had that kind of money or that I expected to have that amount of money. I said that that is what (the experts say) is required to safely retire at age 60. I also said that a lesser amount is required to retire at age 65. And I said that that amount is nearly impossible to save at the current lower Regional/Majors pay rates, (and certainly impossible if your spouse is a stay at home to better raise the children type.)

I don't know which expert you're quoting, but that amount of money is not universally shared by financial counselers. You'd be living a pretty grand lifestyle on that amount of savings.
As for the spouse being stay at home to better raise the children ... both my ex and current wives work full time outside of the home. My daughter skipped a grade in high school and participated in numerous after school activities ... she is now in college with a goal of being a surgeon. My son is following in his older sister's footsteps; he is taking almost all advanced classes. One more in the oven with current wife. As far as any problems with my children, the only problem that I've had is that my daughter thinks that she knows everything ... she's usually right, though. But I guess that my children were deprived since my ex works full time.

So you see this countries transition to defined contribution (401k) retirement plans (for all workers) is becoming a work-until-you-are-no-longer-able-to-work system. Since this is the "retirement plan" of the future for everyone in this country, an age 60 rule for pilots or anyone else is not and can not be be part of such a plan for the future. The age 60 rule for pilots will change soon because of this and the fact that the rest of the world has already changed to an age 65 rule, which forces the USA into compliance. The pressure for change in this country is building fast when one of this nation’s largest newspapers (Chicago Tribune) and other large newspapers cover this inequity and print this as a front page news story. The times are changing in this regard, that is certain.

I've read that the EU has pushed back implementation. I wouldn't be surprised if this change gets shelved by ICAO before it is implemented.
The age 60 rule has been around since before you were hired. You've seen several airlines go under and have witnessed many, many pilots lose their entire DB retirements. Did you think that you were immune to this?
And FWIW, I understand that you have a fairly thriving business on the north side of Chicago with refresher courses and as a DE. What is your income from those ventures?

All the safely arguments about the age 60 rule go out the window when El Al and other international airlines have been flying to age 65 for the past 15 years with no problems.

Yet you fail to cite any contradictory statistical evidence. The FAA reports are derived from four separate studies and they indicate that safety is compromised by having pilots over the age of 55 flying.
And that 59 1/2 YO Southwest captain who was unable to deploy the reversers doesn't help the accident statistics. But I'm sure that many will say that it wasn't an age issue (WhatEver).
The two over 60 pilots who were supposed to pick up Bush Sr in Houston and flew the plane into the ground don't help either.

This is now all about steeling your grand parent’s house and throwing them into the street; so the children can have a larger playroom.

Not me. I had the advantage of having poor parents & grandparents. I was forced to live within a budget and save money so that I could retire comfortably without counting on any retirement plans or government programs.
I did deprive my children in my efforts to save; they weren't handed every toy they desired. I think that it's made them much more aware of the value of a dollar.

 

[vetrider]

In other related big news,
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-09-03-aging-surgeons_x.htm?csp=34

For 3 complicated surgeries, it seems that doctors older than 60 had higher death rates in their patients.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Andy:

Your financial comments fail to consider inflation, unexpected events (health issues, crash in the market, divorce, etc.) and that no one knows how long they will live.

Surely you do not believe that the ideal situation for raising children is the "Latch-Key-Kid" method. Supervision is what children need. If your children have done well with both of you working full time and through your two marriages, congratulations, but that's certainly isn't something to advocate. If a mother wants to nurture and be with her children full time, that should be encouraged as being best of all.

Andy, please get this straight now so there will no longer be false hope of continued age discrimination against your senior colleagues. Age 60 will be gone and its coming to a country near you. And trust me; the new age 65 standard is not changing in the EU or with ICAO.

And regarding safety, the proof is in the statistics of those like El Al who have been flying to age 65 for 15 years. There is no more contrary evidence for or against age 65.

I stand by my quote: “This is now all about steeling your grand parent’s house and throwing them into the street; so the children can have a larger playroom.”